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Loads of O&G industry stuff is still made and / or designed in the UK, for use all over the world.
Northwind is right on automation reducing manufacturing jobs, I worked in a semiconductor factory and the shift team size was tiny as everything that could be was run by machines / robots.
To some extent you can blame also Labour for a big demise in our old industrial base, they nationalized a lot of car, plane, steel companies etc and then over time the management / unions / whoever, messed up and they went down the pan. Also it didn't help they handed over the Trent jet engine to the Russians' FFS! 👿
Britain does quite well in boat building both at the luxury end and the small dinghy market many of which are made here.
Biggest problem we suffer over the years is the often quite violent currency swings, both up and down valuing sterling at the moment we're coming off the down value gaining strength against the Euro which has an adverse effect on export.
I bought this:
I give up whatisit?
bellerophon - MemberI bought this:
A strepsil?
I think poor barty p is still shill bidding for his bike building friends with this post.
However many have realised there are factories overseas which produce product cheaper and technically far superior to much of the stuff MADE here, even UK bike designers realise Taiwanese factories can and do produce a simply superb products that no one in the UK can match for the price.
The world has moved on.
That list of "british" car manufacturers, how many are actually british..
Mini, BMW,
Jaguar, Tata
etc
etc
Does it matter that the companies are able to off shore profits? that the plants and assets aren't actually british??
[quote=mrmo ]Does it matter that the companies are able to off shore profits? that the plants and assets aren't actually british??The whinge is about what "we" make here. You'd be as well asking whether or not it mattered if things were made by immigrants.
I must admit that was my first thought when I clicked on the link & saw the first pic! He's persistent if nothing else!I think poor barty p is still shill bidding for his bike building friends with this post.
In fact Hondas made in Swindon were about as good as you'd get, Worldwide.
And isn't the Nissan factory in Sunderland the most efficient?
As for other stuff, I'd rather sit in an office designing bits of refineries, than working on an oil rig any day. Same goes for most people I imagine, would you rather weld 100 Cotic souls in a workshop on an industrial estate, or design it?
actually I'd prefer to do both - that would be a cool & varied job. Not the most efficient means of production though probably.would you rather weld 100 Cotic souls in a workshop on an industrial estate, or design it?
i rather feel that industry is the guilty party here. i was fortunate enough to be offered an apprenticeship when i finished tech, and i had other friends from school who went straight in. how many opportunities are there like that now? industry doesn't want to train staff. it must be about that time of year for one of the industry bodies to bemoan the fact that the kids they get now 'aren't equipped for the world of work', ie aren't moulded in to exactly what they want when they get turned out, so they have to spend time and money to train them. it's such a well worn trope.
see also - 'massive house build targets put in jeopardy by shortage of skills', from the same industry that tells my brickie mate, every time he goes to the next job, 'well we can't pay what we did last time', so funnily enough he's ****ed off to something else. 🙄
if you want a bike made in this country go buy a BTR? designed and built by two guys in a shed. pay the premium, fill yer boots.
Brompton is an anomaly; a UK bike manufacturer which is actually growing rapidly. Great design, and very successful marketing. However; most of the bits are actually made abroad. Including the Sturmey Archer hubs. Sturmey Archer, I wonder what happened to them...What happens when Brompton decide to move production to somewhere with cheaper labour costs?
1.
Sturmey Archer was shut down by a Brit who bought the dying remnants of Raleigh, asset stripped it and sent everything to auction. SunRace saw this and made an offer before the auction to buy all of Sturmey Archer's IP and tooling etc. they shipped it back to Taiwan spent 2 years working out what they'd bought then started producing SA gears again, including some stuff that hadn't been made for 40 or 50 years. This was because they saw the value in it, and not what happens in the UK of just thinking about the short term.
2.
Brompton isn't an anomaly - basically they make the best folding bike in the world - there's a reason people buy them particularly if they have mixed mode journeys. Oh, and they are moving away shortly from Brentford west London. They're going to Greenford because they need more room. there was a famous TV programme where "experts" went into companies and told them to off-shore everything because that's where the money is. Brompton told them to bugger off, as they'd lose what it was that made them successful.
The springs and wire formed parts for Bromptons are manufactured in the UK.
Oh, and the main frames, forks and stem of Bromptons are made in the UK.
FWIW Honda in Swindon, Nissan in Sunderland and Toyota in Burnaston have all topped either internal company league tables or international league tables at some point or another regarding ROI, quality, productivity and warranty returns.
And as an interesting aside a mate of mine was at Burnaston from day 1, the Japanese managers spent the entire set up phase tearing their hair out as everyone was arguing about the best way to build the cars, the Oriental model is that the shop floor workers do what they are told by management and any changes are incremental and managed (Kaizen type stuff) the brits pretty much did what they wanted (within limits of course!) changed stuff, moved stuff around and so on.
IIRC the factory was the best in Toyota outside of japan within 6 months and took top spot after less than 18 months. Unheard of then and AFAIK never been repeated.
Ironically the success of the Nissan Sunderland plant is based on low cost and efficiency and out competing the rest of the Nissan Reno plants for the next model. Basically the business model the Far East first used against uk firms. Very little r&d happens there and it's not got the greatest links to the local supply chain. It's very different to the niche high value sucesses elsewhere in this thread. Part of the reason it's so efficient is everyone is shit scared it will go if it isn't.
Remind me who makes better [s]cars[/s] software to defeat the testing regime
FTFY
Those statistics above prove our manufacturing industry is shrinking. Unbelievable that so many on here are in obvious denial of the facts. Our skills base is evaporating. People are less and less able to make and fix stuff. Less decent stuff is made here. You simply can't argue with that. Saying 'oh but we're really good at F1 or this or that' is just burying your head in the sand.
Maybe so, but is that something to worry about? What's left is high-value, high performance manufacturing and high level skills. Sure we farm out the drudgery to other countries, where it's cheaper and easier to make, but that's not necessarily a BAD thing. Just a way of progressing. If everyone were busy making nuts and bolts, no-one would be making planes. The romantic view of core manufacturing skills being the backbone on which everything rests is a nonsense - sure you need some capacity, but there's no need for it to be measured and missed. Now it's just as easy to jump on a plane and fly to somewhere to organise your quality manufacturing at a much lower cost and much higher profit than it is to get it done here unless you do it in house (which is what many top-end manufacturers do). While I believe the engineering world needs to know the basics to understand how it's done, I don't think it really needs a bottom heavy iron-bashing base to be successful. If the markets fell apart and it became cheaper and better to make it here we could. It would take some re-jigging, but the skills still exist and are still taught, just rarely used.
Maybe so, but is that something to worry about?
He was wrong anyway, he misinterpreted the statistics.
I do a bit of woodwork. The UK used to produce some of the finest tools in the world. Now, several other countries (including China) make tools to the same or very similar design, but we don't. The US, Japan, Sweden and Germany in particular, make superb tools of all types.
My uncle Mike was chief design engineer for a company called Wadkin Bursgreen. 😛
One of my sea rods, It even sounds good 'Carbon Metal Express' Made by Century Composites in County Durham.
[url= https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5824/22914977059_6f61802449_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5824/22914977059_6f61802449_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/AUVfkn ]CME-primary[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/jimmygrainger/ ]jimmyg352[/url], on Flickr
Who cares if we're less skilled at making stuff? It's not the only way to run an economy...
And this sums up why so many of you absolutely fail to see the cost of everything, and the value of nothing.
Who cares? Future generations will, when all they are capable of is taking stuff off an assembly line, and putting them in boxes. When they have to pay a fortune for anything decent, and have to put up with cheap shit from abroad, because that's all they can afford. When the only bikes they can afford will be nasty cheap crap from Halfords (all the small independent bike shops will have closed down by this time). And all those jobs their ancestors did, that earned them so much money, are now being done by people in foreign lands, whose governments saw the value in investing in industry.
As for 'economics'; you can blether on about how we do this that and the other so well, but the reality is that there are less and less jobs which require such genuine skills in this country. You can't just come up with exceptions and hope they prove the rule. We are entering a future where our kids will not be able to get an education, because they can't afford the debt. When they can't afford to buy a house, because it's all been bought by affluent foreigners (who've made their money in manufacturing stuff they sell to us). And they'll have no skills because we've been too lazy to teach them, content instead to just buy stuff from abroad, because it's cheaper.
He was wrong anyway, he misinterpreted the statistics.
I didn't; it's a fact that our economy is shrinking in global terms, and we are being overtaken by other nations. Who are making stuff. The kind of stuff that we used to make. Really well. Do you genuinely believe that those nations making the basic stuff won't eventually catch up? Are you that blinkered and naive?
Germany has progressed as an economic power. They are still making stuff, at all levels. They have retained their skills base. We're in danger of losing ours all together.
"Northern Power House" ... which genius come up with that shite? 😆
You're right that our economy and our future are a mess but thank God you're not in charge of policy if you think a massive debt crisis, globalisation, climate change and an ageing population will be resolved by increasing the size of our manufacturing sector! If was that simple, do you think we'd be in such a mess??
it's a bit of a First Worlder's rant if you ask me. Look at the situation from the point of a Chinaman who used to be a peasant farmer and now lives in a city with a well-paid factory job and a hell of a lot more wealth than he ever dreamed of... what looks bad to you is a massive gain for a significant proportion of the population of what we used to call the Third World...
British Lamb is the best.
it's a fact that our economy is shrinking in global terms, and we are being overtaken by other nations.
What you mean is: 'other countries are making money by mass-producing stuff'... Right?
Good, that means more customers for our small-volume, high-quality exports.
Whisky, jet engines, really nice shoes, cnc-machined mtb brakes, etc. etc. They all want more rich overseas customers.
If that means we (the UK) drops off the top 10 (or whatever) richest countries list, then that's ok by me, and my employer, and our research partners. More rich countries please -our exports need them!
We still do plenty of research, set standards etc. Why make bikes which are of low skill when we can be designing and making high value stuff.
This is what you said
Those statistics above prove our manufacturing industry is shrinking.
.. and that was wrong because you continue to look at share of the economy, not the gdp attributable to maufacturinh. Every developed country has declined as a proportion of world trade, even Germany and in the last 25 years they declined even more than us. So the vast majority of what you say is wrong including lauding Raleigh bikes, they were the biggest pile of crap ever.
Oh, and the main frames, forks and stem of Bromptons are made in the UK.
and look at how pricey the built up bikes are and how poor the components are .I cant afford to buy British if it`s going to cost more than something from overseas
BartyP you really need to go and learn some basic economic theory. You wouldn't entertain a discussion with people about your bonkers custom bike frame unless they had experience of making bicycles to your liking from Ti tubing themselves. So I'm not sure why you're expecting others to indulge you in macro economics when quite clearly you don't get it. At all.
😆
I find your interpretation of things fascinating. You're wrong of course, but carry on thinking lie that if it suits you.
.. and that was wrong because you continue to look at share of the economy, not the gdp attributable to maufacturinh.
Ok then, let's indulge you:
So now we've got that out of the way, let's look at what this discussion is actually about, rather than what some of you think it's about. The fact is, that we are losing real skills within our workforce. Much of this is due to automation and improvements in production technology, and much of it is due to industries moving to cheaper labour markets. I'm not disputing this. But part of it is our inability/unwillingness to continue to invest in maintaining skill levels, in the way other nations have. There's no problem in training people to do other things, but why can't we also train them in more traditional skills as well?
I think poor barty p is still shill bidding for his bike building friends with this post.However many have realised there are factories overseas which produce product cheaper and technically far superior to much of the stuff MADE here, even UK bike designers realise Taiwanese factories can and do produce a simply superb products that no one in the UK can match for the price.
The world has moved on.
It's this kind of attitude that I find depressing. Phillxx75 suggested I get a US or Russian made frame, as it would be 'better', in his opinion. An opinion we learned that is not actually based in real knowledge. Putting aside Russia for the moment; the US has several companies that produce high-end Titanium frames. The UK has just a tiny number of people skilled in this field. Surely it's better to encourage growth here, by employing a UK company, than simply purchasing something from abroad? I'd even possibly be paying more for the same thing from the US, not to mention the unnecessary carbon footprint associated with it's import.
The world has moved on. And it's left us behind.
As for ignoring training in basic skills:
Imagine if you want to be able to make a piece of furniture, maybe a workbench. How are you going to set about learning to do so? Will you instantly be skilled in using all the tools you'll need? No. first, you'll need to learn how to hold a saw the right way, things like that. Thing is, as others have mentioned, were not doing this. We're not training people in the basic skills, so that they can go on and develop those skills into more specialist ones. And for those talking about specialist industries; how many of you are actually physically involved in making stuff? And as for 'designers' sitting at a desk 'designing' something made in the far east; how will you learn to actually use the metal the frames are made from, if you've never held a welding torch yourself? That's not designing a bicycle frame; that's just ordering from a catalogue of parts, and having people with more skill and knowledge than you, to actually make it.
And any idiot can do that. 😉
FTFYThe world has moved on. And it's left [s]us[/s] [b]me[/b] behind.
[i]but why can't we also train them in more traditional skills as well?[/i]
I'd bet actually money that you could find anything you want in the UK traditionally crafted and made by skilled artisans.
No. first, you'll need to learn how to hold a saw the right way, things like that.
My eldest has been taught these skills at school and I was showing her when she use to help me with logs at the age of 3. They still seem to teach them how to make a wooden box at school like I learnt to do over 30 years ago. When I came to repair a shoe box that may late grandfather made, he was a joiner, about 12 years ago now these skills came back to me.
If had the time and more motivation I'd love to do something along those lines as a hobby. Where would I learn these? The school behind our house does night classes or I could ask a friend's husband who has his own little furniture business for some tips.
[i]And as for 'designers' sitting at a desk 'designing' something made in the far east; how will you learn to actually use the metal the frames are made from[/i]
What's wrong with dividing the skill set? Why does the same person that designs need to be the same person that builds? I'll bet RJ Mitchell was shit with a welders torch, and I reckon IK Brunel probably couldn't hammer a rivet
[i] if you've never held a welding torch yourself? That's not designing a bicycle frame; that's just ordering from a catalogue of parts, and having people with more skill and knowledge than you, to actually make it. [/i]
...and we're back to you still smiting from getting your arse kicked on the other thread.
Mostly I just find your downbeat, uneducated and blinkered view of things depressing. The UK has a vibrant and diverse industrial base that leads the world in many important and high value fields. Rather than think "Hey we should try and build on our successes" your proposal is we should try and make metal widgets and furniture again.
We would do much better as a country if we recognise our successes and try and back those.
Oh, and the main frames, forks and stem of Bromptons are made in the UK.
and look at how pricey the built up bikes are and how poor the components are .I cant afford to buy British if it`s going to cost more than something from overseas
Yes, Bromptons are pricey - but unlike some of the other folders they work properly and spares are available.
I don't understand this fascination with Brompton components being poor quality - exactly which bits are poor quality? Because I can't tell, and I ride mine for an average of 7 hours a week. All the people I know who've told me how I've been stupid to buy a Brompton because their "insert generic name" folder is so much better - mostly because its half the price - aren't still riding them because either something catastrophic has happened to it such as frame failure, or a component which isn't replaceable has failed, or they're just fed up with a bike that is difficult to fold and unfold and isn't reliable.
I bought my bike in 2010 and since that time its been through a couple of pairs of tyres, brake blocks and new chainrings/ chain/ sprockets/ pedals. I've replaced the saddle - only because I wanted to not because there was anything wrong with it.
[i]Mostly I just find your downbeat, uneducated and blinkered view of things depressing.[/i]
This, your fetishisation of the building of "a thing" over all over aspects of the process is narrow minded.
Ok then, let's indulge you:
.
Well you failed because you produced articles about one quarter's figures to address the position of manufacturing over the last 25 years. This is hardly a surprise as you clearly don't understand this stuff. The skills aren't lost just less people have them because there is less need for them - if you want to learn a new skill, go to evening classes - many now have the time and the money to indulge themselves in a such a way, they didn't in the past.
I've enjoyed lurking but on the off chance this isn't an excellent troll, I'd like to stick an oar in...
There's no problem in training people to do other things, but why can't we also train them in more traditional skills as well?
Probably due the human aspiration? Kids can leave school now and even with naff grades there are opportunities for high level skilled jobs, there's SO much opportunity available now compared to this apparent historical golden age where a lot people went to work at the local factory because that was the done thing and it meant food on the table.
As for ignoring training in basic skills:Imagine if you want to be able to make a piece of furniture, maybe a workbench. How are you going to set about learning to do so?
I think this argument is a bit hazy due to romanticising and confusing the very distinct difference between DIY repair and production/manufacturing.
Taking what you've said above "want" is the key word, anyone who genuinely [i]wants[/i] to build something will learn how, the fact that they might have to learn the finer points on their own time rather than during the basic education curriculum is neither here nor there because they're doing it for their own pleasure, not as a job.
Will you instantly be skilled in using all the tools you'll need? No. first, you'll need to learn how to hold a saw the right way, things like that. Thing is, as others have mentioned, were not doing this.
Actually, we are. There has been a huge explosion of DIY'ing over the past 6 years or so, with hacker/maker spaces in almost every major city of the country with fully equipped shared labs, workshops and classes teaching those that [i]want[/i] the basic and more complex skills. Or if you can't access any of that you could turn to the internet/youtube for a plethora of online courses/guides
We're not training people in the basic skills, so that they can go on and develop those skills into more specialist ones.
Also not strictly true, if you take on any specialist course, generally speaking you spend 1-2 years learning first principals and basic skills, the foundation required to learn the more complex stuff. The fact that we don't grind first principals metalwork into a child who is interested in vetenary studies is probably a positive thing.
And for those talking about specialist industries; how many of you are actually physically involved in making stuff?
Quite heavily actually as you can't just hand over a raw novel design to a manufacturing site and expect perfection out the other end. A huge amount of work is required setting up the line and achieving appropriate optimisation. All of which requires a working knowledge and hands on experience with every manufacturing step.
And as for 'designers' sitting at a desk 'designing' something made in the far east; how will you learn to actually use the metal the frames are made from
It's called education, most people take a degree or a technical diploma.
if you've never held a welding torch yourself? That's not designing a bicycle frame; that's just ordering from a catalogue of parts, and having people with more skill and knowledge than you, to actually make it.
Ordering off the shelf tubes (which by the way EVERYONE does because not even boutique frame builders draw their own tubes) and having someone with a [i]manufacturing[/i] skills set build a frame is not designing no.
Knowing how the human form engages with the geometry of the frame and how loading and stress and strain works so that you order the correct size/type/material and dimension accordingly IS design. Welding regardless of how utterly skilful it is, is not design, it's manufacturing.
Going back to the history stuff, I've recently spent some personal time learning about analogue electronics (old 1940's radios and the such) and back then people fixed their own stuff because they had no other choice, it's post war, no money about and so people learnt how things worked. Then the digital age came about and those skills form before suddenly didn't apply to microprocessors and super compact components. But we are having a return of that surge, people of all ages are learning how to re-program and rebuild their super fine consumer products again, as the knowledge has trickled down into mainstream view.
Excellent post, jamie bkc. I don't agree with much of it, but thanks for taking the time to post it. Far more positive an input than some on here.
...and we're back to you still smiting from getting your arse kicked on the other thread.
I find your opinion rather amusing. I hadn't realised it was a 'fight'. 😆
The UK has a shrinking vibrant and diverse industrial base
FTFY.
What's wrong with dividing the skill set? Why does the same person that designs need to be the same person that builds? I'll bet RJ Mitchell was shit with a welders torch, and I reckon IK Brunel probably couldn't hammer a rivet
The Victorians were surprisingly versatile in their abilities. I'd imagine they probably spent quite a bit of time in workshops, tinkering. They didn't have CAD and FSA technologies to assist them in those days.
And they didn't live in homes furnished by IKEA....
[i]And they didn't live in homes furnished by IKEA.[/i]
but the original piece of IKEA furniture needed to be designed and modelled and fabricated, and then broken down to parts so that it could be built easily...and I bet that was largely done by one person in a shed.
EDIT, but they did have home decorated with Wedgewood, which in many ways was the IKEA of it's day.
And they didn't live in homes furnished by IKEA....
Bet the would have loved the opportunity though. Quality furniture are affordable prices is always going to be a winner.
how will you learn to actually use the metal the frames are made from, if you've never held a welding torch yourself?
Books, lectures, Uni, & TWI courses, in fact the people I know writing the welding specs understand welding far, far better than the guys with the torch.
The UK industrial base is not shrinking. It's just that in the real world industry doesn't mean what it means in your head.
This has got to be a troll. A good one granted. Combined with the "Homer's car" bike thread surely no one is this blinkered?
That Aston is a perfect example of why.
Aren't Aston owned by Ford? Or have they moved on again?
FWIW Honda in Swindon, Nissan in Sunderland and Toyota in Burnaston...
Thank goodness we still have those fine British motor companies. 😆