[Closed] Help for Heroes - a moral dilemma

Not all of them have been trained to kill people, some of them are techies etc.

Yeah, just you.

My problem is of a more local nature. I live opposite perhaps one of the most anti-social families in history (letting off fireworks at 4 in the morning, driving Kevmobiles at dangerous speeds on the local roads, etc).
The police are round their place all the time.
But they decided to make themselves untouchable by raising money for Help for Heroes.
I prefer donating to low-profile charities, my favourite being Blind Children UK.

I resent being forced by proxy into offering support for these causes

How is that happening?

I've nothing to do with the forces and see your point that to sign up is to take the risk of serious injury/death - but it's a lottery who that happens to and the non-charity-provided support afterwards seems lacking (for non forces disabled also) and this is one way of tacking that.

But they decided to make themselves untouchable by raising money for Help for Heroes.

How is that happening?

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/man-theoretically-buys-homeless-person-a-sandwich-20150810100964

I agree that people who need help, are being helped as a result of this charity.
I also understand that it's a very controversial subject as millions of Britons know someone or are related to someone in the forces - we have a patriotic population, I just feel that there is an element of propaganda about how this charity is pitched.

A good friend from my previous rugby team had his leg blown off on his first tour of Basra, 5 weeks into joining the army. I've seen the effects, I still am completely against his reasoning for choosing to join the forces.

Nobody asked you to like the term heroes and as far as I'm aware they don't need your permission to use it so maybe just chill out about it?
You don't have to like it little less donate to it.

It's in my face everywhere I turn, car window stickers, shop collection boxes, bus stop advertising, social media, TV..

I see the problem. You're a drama queen.

Don't like it then don't donate.

Maybe I should chill - but like when I see motorists laying into cyclists in the press, it gets my goat and I feel the need to comment.
Just like with being constantly reminded that I should help the heroes, it gets my goat as I don't like the way society is validating its actions

Not the only one, joining the forces does not automatically make you a hero and those that support such sentiments really should be fighting for the military to actually budget rehabilitation and life long help for those injured both physically and mentally into their costings when embarking on "foreign adventures" rather than expecting the good will of the public to pick up the tab on top of the expense incurred of bombing poor people around the world and perpetuating the horrific cycle of violence.

Just like with being constantly reminded that I should help the heroes, it gets my goat as I don't like the way society is validating its actions

Snappy title for a good cause, innit?

It is a bit naff, I doubt many of those involved would ever think of themselves in such terms.
But if the veterans don't have a major issue with it, I can't see a problem.

But if the veterans themselves don't have a major issue with it

Hmmm! Now that might open up a can of worms.

joining the forces does not automatically make you a hero and those that support such sentiments really should be fighting for the military to actually budget rehabilitation

I'm pretty sure they don't claim that and one of the thing they do is fight that rehabilitation should be covered by the government.

Thank you Robd.

And rusty, I agree. However, I can't imagine a reason that an ex soldier wouldn't support a soldier cause.

I'm pretty sure they don't claim that and one of the thing they do is fight that rehabilitation should be covered by the government.

Certainly they do not directly claim it but the best propaganda is always subtle and slowly sinks into the psyche and cultural backdrop of the nation and leads to more folks willing to join up as it feels that their life and work will be worthwhile and heroic just like on TV and in the media generally. Their is no great conspiracy or anything it is just a useful tool that has sprung up to enable the status quo to continue.

I can see where you're coming from. The problem is that there's a chain of logic:

soldiers are heroes -> support our troops -> don't criticise the wars they're in

It's a faulty chain of logic, but that's often how it's portrayed - there's a common suggestion that politicians shouldn't apologise for Iraq, because it's disrespecting the soldiers who died or were injured, for instance.

The two US servicemen and the civilian who overpowered the nutter with a gun on the train yesterday - that was an heroic act.

They are heros in my eyes and its one of the charities I donate too. You can dislike the word but support the work they do. I don't see advertising for Help for Heros that much, I think your remark about it being "in your face" is an indicTion that you are over sensitive to it.

As an aside I see the logic chain @ben has posted. I agree totally that we shoukd think very carefully before putting their lives in danger and threatening the lives of others. Our troops are doing their job, they may not even agree with the job theyve been asked to do but they do if. That makes them even more heroic.

I would like to see St Tony asset stripped and it given to this charity.
****.

[i]Am I the only one?[/i]

Nope, are you also wound up by 'hardworking families' and the other slogans? Me too.

Interesting one this, similar feelings here jim, thought I was the only one!

I lived abroad for 12 years and only moved back to the uk 2 and a bit years ago, this blind sense of patriotism was something I noticed when I moved back.

Jambalaya, so you're saying blindly following orders to bomb other human beings, despite maybe disgreeing or not understanding the motives makes a hero? I realise this is not the only thing they do but it is one of them

Our troops are doing their job, they may not even agree with the job theyve been asked to do but they do if. That makes them even more heroic.

Firstly:

A good friend from my previous rugby team had his leg blown off on his first tour of Basra, 5 weeks into joining the army.

I call bullshit on your '5 weeks'. Perhaps 5 weeks into his tour, but not 5 weeks into joining the army.

The whole pervasive 'anyone in uniform is a hero' attitude that has developed is crap. That sort of nonsense started when Diana died.

Until 2003 and going into Iraq, anyone in the Forces was largely a pariah in many places, yet now we have pubs being vilified for not letting groups of squaddies in? H4H has done a good job in promoting itself. I prefer to give to other charities doing related work. There are far more troops surviving with horrific injuries due to the improvements of battlefield medical support. So, we see it more and as a nation were not prepared for that influx. Charities were set up.

That said, your logic is wrong. Those injured are injured because the politicians you voted for (If you didn't vote, shame on you) or didn't vote for decided that the military should be sent to do what it does. Regardless of your pacifist beliefs, you are allowed to support the individual who did a job you wouldn't / couldn't do (and that's fine) and got hurt doing it. They were doing it on behalf of the society that you enjoy.
I firmly believe that the world would be a much better place if there were no need for the military.

Help For heroes!

It's just a snappy title. Much shorter than help for wounded veterans some of whom may have been heroes while the vast majority were just earning a crust doing a hard sometimes boring sometimes dangerous job.

If you disagree with having armed forces don't donate. While not every conflict has been justified it isn't the front line troops that decide where they fight. We need our armed forces and Help For Heroes is a charity that deserves support.

The cynic in me says that anyone choosing to take up a profession in the full knowledge that they will be trained to kill people, that's 'kill people', for reasons that are at best - controversial, and at worst, profiting from murder - should probably take a much deeper look inside at their own psyche.

Think somebody needs to get out more, can I suggest a bike ride in the local woods

It's s tough one, tbh I assume the people with help for heroes stickers in there car windows are the ones reposting Britain First stories on Facebook about how immigrants are scum ate a baby swan paid for by benefits from the EU.
AS worthy as a charity is its depressing that the government / military doesn't support the people it sends off to blow up Iraq and Afghanistan, itself.

@Chris They are risking thier life going into action. In fact they are risking their life just oining up as per Lee Rigby.

I just finished Emma Sky's excellent book "Iraq. The Unravelling". The majority of people in Iraq where glad to see the back of Hussain removed by force . The way the aftermath was managed less so but thats largely as there where lots of different vested interests all wanting tto be in charge / see the country divided.

@kimbers, the government does support those it sends to war. Help for Heroes adds something on top. Its very oversimplistic to suggest someone with a Help for Heroes sticker is anti immigration. I remain a big supporter of the rights of ex-Gurkhas and their families to live in the UK and to receive a full British level pension.

How many of the people supported by H4H were injured in action?

I ask because of a trip to Kenya where a party of H4Hs were present. One was an officer who had broken her back and was in a wheelchair. She had broken her back skiing.

So what should they be called? Help for merciless murderers injured or killed in illegal wars? The latter is what you're really getting at I presume.

In my view anyone who jumps on a hand grenade to save his fellow troops is a hero (thankfully he miraculously survived), those sent in to clear a main highway of mines that are intended to and just as likely to blow up a group of school children as a platoon of British soldiers are heroes. Those helicopter pilots and medics sent into a battlefield to pick up wounded soldiers of both sides while taking heavy fire are hero's. Those politicians who campaign to have our troops pulled out leaving those locals at the mercy of the Taliban and patting themselves on their backs for a job well done are definitely not the hero's.

There is so much discussion about the legality of our interventions we forget that as far as the troops on the ground are concerned its about clearing areas of Taliban and other nasty people who are horrifically brutal to the locals, and supporting the villages and people in that area in trying to pull together whatever life they can scrabble together in some level of peace and security.

Help for Hero's employs the very same tactics as any other charity in my view, I see no difference. If you don't agree then don't donate.

slimjim78 - Member
My 'problem' is mainly that I'm a pacifist, and I don't believe in any of the 'reasons' that we are at 'war'.

My father fought two wars (Korea and Malaya) for the Queen of BritLand and he is Not even a Brit! He even survived an ambush in Malaya where two truck load of his colleague were machine gunned down. He was later captured by the commies while fighting his way out carrying his injured colleagues. He survived. Few years later he also survived a plan crash coz his time is not up yet.

OP, as you wish so long as you do not blame us/me/whatever for not united enough to face the employers in working life or face any of the "right wing" govt just because we don't go to a Union strike and because you think we should. Although I am in a union I am a union pacifist as I don't strike in anyway or form as I think majority of the union officials are all riding the gravy train.

Put it another way if your time is up you will die regardless of how healthy your are. It is the way you die that matters.

If I were in the French train I would put four to six bullets into the assailant if I survived. Two for two ankles, two for knees and two for elbows. There, he still survive but perhaps a cripple. Ya, I know what's the point innit? No point just a natural reaction to inflict pain on someone who try to do the same to me.

😮

p/s: there are plenty of over-hyped here due to the nature of political correctness ... I give up counting and let them be.

No point just a natural reaction to inflict pain on someone who try to do the same to me.

Which puts you on the same level as they are. Nasty.

Help for heroes is just a name of a charity, get over it. Yes people sign up and go where they are told and do what they are told.

Would you rather it called - a centre to help people who have the balls to do something you wouldn't do but happy to live in a safer country because of them?

Another weird thread.

Perhaps have a word with your granddad and see what he thinks about heroism.

How many of the people supported by H4H were injured in action?

I ask because of a trip to Kenya where a party of H4Hs were present. One was an officer who had broken her back and was in a wheelchair. She had broken her back skiing.

It doesn't matter. Assuming she was receiving support from H4H, H4H is a welfare charity for all service men and women providing support irrespective of how they received their wounds or injuries.
All [url= http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/how-we-help/about-us/faqs/ ]here on the website[/url], so you don't have to make assumptions 🙂

From that FAQ;

Help for Heroes considers anyone who volunteers to join the Armed Forces, knowing that one day they may have to risk all, is a hero. It's that simple.

My 'problem' is mainly that I'm a pacifist

It must be lovely being a pacifist.

Thank goodness we all don't think like that otherwise the country would be invaded, sharpish, and we would all end up as slaves.

TooTall - Member

No point just a natural reaction to inflict pain on someone who try to do the same to me.

Which puts you on the same level as they are. Nasty.

Whose level? What level?

You think too much ... 🙄

You weird. 😯

I assume the people with help for heroes stickers in there car windows are the ones reposting Britain First stories on Facebook

There does seem to be quite a lot of intersection on that Venn diagram.

It must be lovely being a pacifist.

Thank goodness we all don't think like that otherwise the country would be invaded, sharpish, and we would all end up as slaves.

I think you don't understand what pacifism is.

bencooper - Member
I think you don't understand what pacifism is.

Explain.

Is pacifist just a survival instinct by being a conformist?

😛

Gandhi was a pacifist - how did nonviolence work out for India?

As far as we know, no-one in my family has been a soldier - my grandfather was a medical orderly in WWII, helping injured soldiers but never killing anyone.

It's something I'm quite proud of.

You do realise that all these soldiers that are supposedly merciless murderers blowing people up in Afghan and Iraq aren't actually allowed to fire upon someone unless they are fired upon first or of there is a threat to human life.

Most of the time they are helping clear mines that have been laid in the roads or helping build schools etc.

bencooper - Member
Gandhi was a pacifist - how did nonviolence work out for India?

Ya, India was later split into three or four parts ... ya ... how many died due to separation?

Gandhi achieved his objective of independence (they would eventually but perhaps the timing was not right) but he also created other problems for others.

The end of an empire is always messy - are you arguing that India would be better if the British were still in charge?