Obviously normal people aren’t going to go to the lengths that they did.
What realistic things have you done to reduce the bills your house?
When we move we will get as many solar panels as we can with a battery and fill the loft with insulation.
What other achievable measures should we take?
Any links to the story / what he's done ?
For me, the problem is 2 fold
- the capital spend has a long payback. Or never. The house is heading to 200 years old, the roof won't carry massive extra loads, and there's sod all space for new equipment (E.G. we lost the airing cupboard when we last got a new boiler as the location in the kitchen for the previous one wasn't compliant to current regs). Roof space is tiny as the upstairs rooms already use half of it, and no way am I having batteries itching to set on fire in the loft.
I can get a few panels + control and batteries etc on the detached garage roof, and maybe pipe the electrons back to the house. But its ESE (125 degrees ish) facing so isn't particularly efficiently orientated. Payback is in decades.
Walls ? 3ft thick stone, no cavity.. floor ? Solid.
Little to no space for air-source. And would need extensive £££ to route in the house.
I will get the current 30+ years old double glazing replaced in the next few years. Not a lot of glass anyway. And see if I can get more insulation in the loft. But big changes seem out of reach until someone gives me (me, not a shyster installation company) a huge wedge of £££ to pay for it.
It's the little things that add up.
I don't need his smarmy grin to tell me how to be more efficient....
- the capital spend has a long payback. Or never.
This is what I found unfortunately. Our local council, (Cheshire West and Chester) run a bulk purchasing scheme for solar plus battery installation, and even with a discount the payback was about 20 years.
- the capital spend has a long payback. Or never.
This is what I found unfortunately. Our local council, (Cheshire West and Chester) run a bulk purchasing scheme for solar plus battery installation, and even with a discount the payback was about 20 years.
Well they aint gonna give you a free install and free leccy, are they, lol! ...
If you can afford it, do it on your own so you have full control, not one of these hare-brained scam/schemes....then you can probably recover your investment in about 7 years and be in profit - modern panels have a life span of say 25yrs, so it's a very sound investment if you are not renting it or paying some scam company.
the capital spend has a long payback. Or never.
Our electricity bill for last year was £35. That's all the house power, charging one EV for the whole year and a second bigger one since September. If you ignore the savings from not buying diesel/petrol the house usage alone would give 7-10 year pay back. Add on the fuel savings and it'll be a lot quicker than that. This is from a 15 panel plus battery system (solar edge so at the more expensive installation cost end).
@robertajobb it was on channel four last night. Quite interesting as it covered a very old church in Northumberland that cost nearly a million to do (as a demonstration of what could be done, by the owners) and also Guy Martin’s house together with a 1920’s semi in Manchester. The Passivhaus standard was explained well.
I think he’s quite good at explaining technical theory with a personable touch
If you ever look at some of the comedy EPC reports that go alongside house sales, they pretty much tell you what to buy/do that is cost effective. (Although much of what is 'calculated' is nonsense...wind turbine fitting...in a back to back with a 20ft x 12ft yard...) Stuff like "Fit low energy lighting..Cost £75. Annual Saving £45". "Fit solar Solar water heating, cost £4000-£6000, annual saving £34"
https://find-energy-certificate.service.gov.uk/energy-certificate/0221-2823-7948-9926-1525
Sounds like an interesting programme, I'll give that a watch.
A friend of mine lives in a new build with fairly standard nods towards energy efficiency, solar panels, etc. Their monthly electric bill is less than a fiver. Interestingly, the estate's developer has gone bust which is leading to problems finishing/maintaining/administering the development.
Prior to that they lived in the building in the following video, a very nice place, but moved out as they felt age and health issues meant they couldn't deal with running the place. Mike Coe had moved to Skye to further develop his ideas in a new project.
Obviously everything depends on budget but I personally would start with air tightness improvements, the quality of life benefits alone are worth the money. We have a highly airtight house with MVHR and I would struggle to go back to a normal house now - the air is fresh and warm, no hint of mould anywhere, no draughts, clothes dry in unheated rooms overnight even in the winter.
We also have solar but no battery as nowhere to put it. 4kW east/west facing north england earned about £360 last year. Doesn't sound like a lot but it meant we were well into positive balance with energy company by the end of the summer despite paying them only £10 for months. That number doesn't account for the saving made on energy we generated and used rather than exported, which is higher value - and will only go one way if Reform get in and sack off all the sustainable energy projects for gas instead.
We have a highly airtight house
We have a very leaky house I’d be interested to know what steps you took to make your house more airtight? Or was it built that way?
Obviously everything depends on budget but I personally would start with air tightness improvements,
The problem is most older houses, by design, depend on air movement, otherwise they rot.
For me - in a 1950s semi. The biggest win for the least investment so far is I wanted to replace the living room floorboards with nicer ones (there was lots of sycamore available after storm Arwen so got myself a nice hardwood floor for the same price as a pine one) so while the boards were off I insulated underneath. I've got the material set aside to do the same thing in the kitchen at some point but just now I can stand with a foot in each room and feel a quite remarkable difference between both rooms. And thats maintaining the airflow under the floor (both the external air bricks but also a vent in the living room floor). The insulation itself is rockwool sandwiched between breathable membranes rather than PIR boards too - again avoiding trapping any moisture
We've just had external insulation fitted as part of a funded local scheme (and the cavity insulation renewed as part of that) and it feels like its made significant improvements but its also been a fairly mild winter here so I think it'll take a few years of comparing consumption to see what the real difference is. With the subsidy it cost us about £2k, without it would have been something like £16k and theres no way we'd ever have seen the payback. We actually only signed on to the scheme becuase our render was pretty shot so its really just been an attractive way of getting that done and the insulation ungrade is just an extra bonus.
As part of the work the old cavity insulation was removed (the old style fluffy stuff) and there was a pause in work for about a month before the new was put in, that would have been last feb and I tell you what - you could tell what work the old insulation had been doing! So having double that now (50mm in the cavity, 50mm external) must be making a measurable diffenence
However improved ventilation was also part of that scheme of work - so we have trickle fans running 24hr in the kitchen and bathroom.
If you DIY everything, really everything, then payback times aren't so long.
If you buy solar thermal and have it installed it''ll take decades. So I bought the biggest double-glazed non-treated Velux, brazed up a heat exchanger out of 18mm pipes and put a mass of insulation behind it. I fitted a tank above it so it thermo syphons and requires no pump sensors etc. The only maintenance is topping up the anti freeze and removing lagging from the primary circuit when we go on holiday in Summer so it doesn't boil dry. Payback 11 years. In Winter it preheats a normal tank.
The washing machine can be filled from the solar tank, a few extra pipes and valves - pay back time; no idea.
The PV paid back in under 7 years, it would be about 10 now.
The insulation is on going, some things have a short payback and some never, but the never things contribute to not needing to burn much wood or needing air con. Wood is hard work so the less the easier. It's nice walking around bare foot between rooms that are very similar temperatures despite the wood burner in the kitchen being the only heat source.
The triple glazing is one thing I had to ask a neighbour for help with it's so heavy. Payback probably about the time it will last, or never.
The wood burner, I have free wood. Payback was immediate as it was cheaper than upgrading the CH. One day, when all French electricty is decarbonised I'll fit a heat pump. We cook on the wood burner and fill flasks from the kettle so there's free hot water for washing up etc.
Shutters and a calculated roof overhang mean we don't need air con in Summer but a reversible heat pump will be needed one day because one effect of climatic change is temperatures not falling at night. The shutters are pertian type with mosquito nets so we can air at night without a security risk.
Water is a bill I can't do much about beyond economy shower head, toilet and taps. I could collect more roof water but currently it's just for watering the garden.
I started in 2008 I doubt I'll ever finish, I like riding a bike too much. The leccy bill is negative, the water bill quite high but better, the comfort much improved, the quantity of wood burned much reduced. Very pleased.
Thanks for the replies. I'll be taking a look this afternoon on company time lunch break. Anything i can learn is always good.
Don't get me wrong, I'm very much in favour of carbon reduction (Ive been involved in several hydrogen related transport projects in the past 6 or 7 years). These sorts of improvements should be designed in and fitted from new on new-build houses. What I should have said was "...long payback for *my* house and its location/orientation.
If you ever look at some of the comedy EPC reports that go alongside house sale
I had one done on a house I rent out - just to make sure it hits the 'C' classification that will soon be conpulsory - which it does, just. The advised improvements were lightbulbs (which were already low energy), insulate under the concrete floor - err ok. And convert the loft into living space so that it's inside the heated/insulated part of the building. So thats make a larger volume of house to heat as an improvement - Its a dormer bungalow - this new 'living space' would be 5 ft tall and toberlone shaped 🙂
the capital spend has a long payback. Or never. The house is heading to 200 years old, the roof won't carry massive extra loads, and there's sod all space for new equipment (E.G. we lost the airing cupboard when we last got a new boiler as the location in the kitchen for the previous one wasn't compliant to current regs). Roof space is tiny as the upstairs rooms already use half of it, and no way am I having batteries itching to set on fire in the loft.
Well, people like you are part of the problem with a confirmation bias of "it'll never work for me". Solar panels add almost nil additional load to a roof unless you're covering a flat roof with hundreds of them.
Batteries go outside the house these days.
ASHP also goes outside, so you could have a water tank in the airing cupboard.
I've really well insulated the roof space even though it's only for storage and closed off with a hatch. Your adviser is right, if you have an insulated roof above an insulated ceiling heat loss through the ceiling is negligible.
A thermal imaging camera showed me where I'm still losing heat.
Thermal bridges:
The triple glazing has 75mm deep frames that allow a fairly good junction with the inside wall insulation but there's still a thermal bridge around windows. The glass is warmer than the frames.
Ceilings where they meet walls. Can't do anything about it.
Where brick partition walls meet outside walls. My enthusiasm doesn't extend to demolishing partition walls.
There are two major problems with British houses I'm familiar with:
The walls, most are cavity wall with woefully inadequate insulation of the cavity and dreadful thermal bridges around openings.
The floors, usually no insulation whatsoever.
Borrow a thermal imaging camera, that'll tell you where you get the best return on you money and effort.
1920’s semi here, we’ve replaced the glazing with triple glazing using solar reflective glass. This didn’t appear to cost much more than double and it achieved the major objective of keeping the house cooler in summer. It has also made the house more comfortable in winter and is noticeably better than the good quality double glazing that it replaced.
Put a curtain across the front door. Chimney blockers when not using them. Thicker curtains at windows. Foil on the wall behind radiators.
All cheap, easy and effective at retaining heat/cutting drafts.
Radio 4 program recommendations, not mine
Those radio 4 ideas are comical, a stcking plaster on an amputation. You need proper thermal resistance. Which keeps you warm, an aluminium emergency blanket or a down jacket? You need 100mm of insulation on the whole wall not 2mm behind a radiator.
On sunny winter days open the curtains/blinds especially on South facing rooms.
Put a curtain across the front door. Chimney blockers when not using them. Thicker curtains at windows.
Those helped us after doing them a few years ago. Of course, if those do help, you've likely got an old very leaky home.
Foil on the wall behind radiators.
Is that assuming your radiators are on outside walls? If so... why are they! All ours are on inside walls, and ones that aren't shared with neighbours (it's a terrace). How would foil behind them do anything useful?
1920’s semi here, we’ve replaced the glazing with triple glazing using solar reflective glass. This didn’t appear to cost much more than double and it achieved the major objective of keeping the house cooler in summer.
Wish I'd thought of that when we had ours done - solar gain is a major problem for us in the summer 😕
Does this telly programme have Sean Dooley narrating it? Is he telling us how awesome Guy is? If so its a hard pass from me.
@Edukator the simple ideas may appear comical to you but they do help people without much money start thinking in the right direction and make them think that saving money isn’t an insurmountable task.
I’ve done all the energy stuff, EV, battery solar…. That has obviously saved me a fortune at the same time as costing a similarly huge amount. Not that satisfying.
In terms of bang for buck and sheer livability improvements it’s got to be spending time properly draft proofing doors and windows. Second on the list has been loft insulation, third in line has actually been an unforeseen benefit of installing solar. The air gap between the panels and roof has had a big impact on reducing the heat coming in through the roof. Tin roof, hot Aussie sun and a 40+ day can get pretty nasty.
For me, the problem is 2 fold
- the capital spend has a long payback. Or never.
There are 2 elements to energy efficiency - the first is definitely lower bills and payback time. But it's also worth considering quality of life - living in a warm, dry, draught free house is just nicer. Who wouldn't want to be more comfortable, even if it didn't have a payback?
Obviously everything depends on budget but I personally would start with air tightness improvements, the quality of life benefits alone are worth the money. We have a highly airtight house with MVHR and I would struggle to go back to a normal house now - the air is fresh and warm, no hint of mould anywhere, no draughts, clothes dry in unheated rooms overnight even in the winter.
We self built our house - highly insulated and airtight, MVHR - and theres no way I'd live in an old house again unless I was going to bring it to a similar standard. The other interesting thing is that we actually heat to a lower temperature than most people - admittedly I'm moving around and doing some stuff today but the rooms are 19 or 20C rather than 21+ and I'm in a t shirt. Sitting down in the evening I'll put a light jumper on but thats' it.
Put a curtain across the front door. Chimney blockers when not using them. Thicker curtains at windows. Foil on the wall behind radiators.
We were in a Victorian end of terrace before. These all do make a significant difference as a first step - we had a big old leaky front door with single glazed stained glass. A big floor-to-ceiling lined curtain made a very noticeable difference. The draft through open chimneys is ludicrous.
I've really well insulated the roof space even though it's only for storage and closed off with a hatch. Your adviser is right, if you have an insulated roof above an insulated ceiling heat loss through the ceiling is negligible.
And you can do it properly and make it airtight. Typically a UK loft has cold air blowing over the insulation, airtightness compromised by hole in the ceilings (downlighter etc) and the depth of insulation in the loft compromised by being boarded out for storage (or compressed because it's got stuff on top of it)
How would foil behind them do anything useful?
You'll see YouTube tutorial / reviews about this - they'll demonstrate that room warms up quicker - but unless the house is terribly insulated then that warmth lost into the wall initially is just gained back later. You're warming the fabric of the building not just the air inside it. So theres a short term difference but not necessarily a net gain overall
Is that assuming your radiators are on outside walls? If so... why are they!
If an exterior wall is a point of heat loss then it remains a point of heat loss no matter where in the room the radiator is. The same amount of energy is lost.
There are two major problems with British houses I'm familiar with:
Wish I'd thought of that when we had ours done - solar gain is a major problem for us in the summer
A fundamental issue with UK housing since the victorian era as we've consistently built houses with windows that are too big for our lattitude. Comparable houses on the same latitude around the world have smaller windows and lose less heat in the winter and gain less in the summer.
The bog standard northern 70s semi I grew up in all the downstairs room were glazed wall to wall and floor to ceiling. Basically one single glazed curtain wall in each ground floor room. The developers would have cut the ribbon just in time for the global energy crisis 🙂
the best money most folk could spend is to rent or buy an FLIR. Every house is different beyond the basic "attic glass wool" - my cameras a top don attachment for my phone - it might no be accurate on specific temperatures - but it clearly shows trends. - cost 70 quid.
I've done a lot of work on my current house - Solar PV, Solar Thermal, Batteries , Insulation , Windows , air tightness and its made a vast difference compared to my neighbours house thats built the same.
I'm going through the same process with my mums 1980s BETT build. - Cardboard and duck spit , my options are limited i reckon but I'm using the same FLIR i used to survey mine and my neighbours houses.
Also, theres no doubt that maintaining ventilation is challenge in improving older houses but I can’t believe that we’re still building new houses with trickle vents and extractor fans as a solution. Airtightness standards have improved, but we’re still punching holes though to outside, and sucking warm air out of bathrooms though a big hole in the wall. The trickle vents mean you lose sound insulation as well - close them and listen to the difference.
’ve not used them but this seems a very smart solutions - ‘extractor fan’ style heat recovery (so no central system and pipework that’s very difficult to retrofit required).
But you have multiple units working together with a wireless link to move air across the house.
And they’re only about £200 each. A decent vent axis extractor fan can be over £100. Seem like a bargain.
Airtightness standards have improved, but we’re still punching holes though to outside, and sucking warm air out of bathrooms though a big hole in the wall.
The issue here is architects are building houses for humans to occupy - and the pesky blighters insist on being able to breath
I'm struggling to grasp from that site how that ceramic thing recovers heat. Its says 'heat exchanger' but I don't see the heat being exchanged to anything unless that single fan is somehow managing to suck air in and blow it out at the same time
unless that single fan is somehow managing to suck air in and blow it out at the same time
Looks like the system has to have more than one fan... I guess they talk to each and alternate between in/out.
unless that single fan is somehow managing to suck air in and blow it out at the same time
Looks like the system has to have more than one fan... I guess they talk to each and alternate between in/out.
Doesn't have to - It warms the ceramic with the (warm wet) extracted air, then changes direction and warms incoming air over the ceramic. If you have multiple units you co-ordinate them wirelessly so some are extracting while the others are blowing but one can work by itself.
Airtightness standards have improved, but we’re still punching holes though to outside, and sucking warm air out of bathrooms though a big hole in the wall.
The issue here is architects are building houses for humans to occupy - and the pesky blighters insist on being able to breath
Part of it is education. Northern Europeans managed for years without trickle vents by simply opening all the windows wide to change the air in the house each morning. The theory is sound - quickly dump all the warm wet air from the house, bring in comparatively dry cold air then shut the windows. The structure of the house quickly warms up the air and warm air can hold a lot more moisture than cold. When I accidentally switched off our MVHR for a couple of days that worked to get rid of the condensation.
I've never worked out if that just fails to work in a warmish wet climate like the uk (and with our cold bodied badly insulated houses).
It warms the ceramic with the (warm wet) extracted air, then changes direction and warms incoming air over the ceramic.
Well thats nice for the piece of ceramic.
It warms the ceramic with the (warm wet) extracted air, then changes direction and warms incoming air over the ceramic.
Well thats nice for the piece of ceramic.
lol
they're claiming up to 90% efficiency. Which is very impressive( though I can’t find a third party test result).
“BSK Zephyr can recover heat by using a 2-way fan heating and cooling of the ceramic heat exchanger inside. The device operates on a cycle that extracts and supplies air in periods of 70 seconds. While the air is extracted out from the room, the ceramic heat exchanger will be heated, when the air flow direction is reversed and fresh air from outside is supplied to the room, thanks to the heat stored in the ceramic core, it will be blown inside in a conditioned manner. BSK Zephyr, whose power consumption does not exceed a few watts and can reach 90% thermal efficiency, also allows you to save energy while meeting your ventilation needs. You can connect multiple devices to each other via wi-fi, and you can control your devices with the included IR remote.”
I moved to a new build.
Huge insulation, pretty air tight, solar panels, etc.
Energy bill is less than 1/2 what it used to be...
The issue here is architects are building houses for humans to occupy - and the pesky blighters insist on being able to breath
As per others, MVHR is the answer to that in new builds. Every room has either a supply or an extract vent ducted back to a central manifold. Then there's a big fan and heat exchanger that uses the warm moist extract air to warm up the incoming dry air.
I have heard of instances of it being retrofitted to older houses but haven't looked into it in detail myself. Those 90% efficient fans above probably get you most of the benefit for a lot less cost, in a retrofit situation.
I would echo b33k34, we're in a similar situation. It's a real shame that building regs haven't caught up.
I have heard of instances of it being retrofitted to older houses but haven't looked into it in detail myself. Those 90% efficient fans above probably get you most of the benefit for a lot less cost, in a retrofit situation.
Without some sort of real world verification they seem a bit magnetic wristband to me. Would be more that happily proved wrong mind.
Heat recovery fans and more sophisticated heat recovery systems work but 90% isn't realistic. 70 to 80% is typical and already very good. Careful if you have a wood burner without an outside air supply, you can fill the house with CO with ventilation fans.
When your house is really well insulated start worrying about losses through trickle ventilation, Most homes lose far more by radiation and conduction due to poor insulation.
I was surprised to find a new build relies on trickle ventilation and has no heat recovery on the mechanical ventilation. It's well insulated though and requires very little heating - non at all even with snow outside if 16 is acceptable. The humidity meter tells me ventilation is adequate.
I looked at standalone MVHR but the ROI was silly and the systems seemed fairly prone to failure - Whole house MVHR makes sense and would be a no brainer in a build - but retrofit is challenging .
I ended going full circle and just up putting a full bore stainless steel one way valve directly upstream on my inline fan - in both the bathroom and the kitchen.
yes it causes a restriction but also noticeably stops the cold wind blowing back in - My extractor in the kitchen vents out a 6 inch pipe straight up and out tile vents 20+feet in the air so was prone to blowing a direct and noticeable draft right into the middle of the kitchen floor prior to the valve.
Not nearly as sophisticated as heat recovery but it was also about 15 quid. The ROI was more tolerable.
the extraction was also part of the reason i fitted the PIV -if you make a house fairly air tight - your extraction systems don't work effectively. We also have the woodburner and with making the house more air tight we wanted to be sure we had control over the required ventilation to find the sweet spot between holding heat in and not letting the cold air form drafts inside and ensuring we dont end up with a build of CO inside.
But i can guarantee one thing - a zero bill house is not a build up of "little things" you have to insulate , you have to generate (be it PV or heat) and you HAVE to store energy (be it PV or heat) all cost significant money.
question - those with whole house MVHR - how do you ensure the ducting is kept clean ?
Heat recovery fans and more sophisticated heat recovery systems work but 90% isn't realistic. 70 to 80% is typical and already very good.
Maybe. As with most stuff standard of hardware and installation makes a difference. This suggests that the best units are well sealed and insulated (which would also go for the standard of insulation on the pipes to outside). https://www.heatspaceandlight.com/cheap-mvhr-expensive-heat-exchanger-efficiency/
The unit above avoids a lot of those issues as it's all in the wall.
Some of the through the wall heat recovery fans have coaxial pipes and a heat exchanger on the inside wall - they work pretty well and 80 percent efficiency is plausible.
Most blow out for a time then in for a time recovering the heat stored in the unit in the blow phase. If you only have one then when it blows out it must be sucking cold air into the house somewhere as draughts, and when it blows in it must be blowing warm air out of the house somewhere. The efficiency claims therefore are nonsense unless you have two of them coordinated.
In our house I considered all the options and decided to rely on one trickle wented window (all the others are non vented) a 100 mm roof vent with mosquito net and a very leaky (but insulated) back door. The objective was that I could run the wood burner full chat with no reduction in draw when all the doors and windows are shut. I don't want CO poisoning. It's not perfect, but I consider safe uncomplicated ventilation important and if that means burning a bit more wood so be it. 1.5 to 2.5m3 of wood depending on how hard the Winter is won't break me.
I clean the pipes of the flat ventilation with a vacuum for as far as I can feed the pipe, Trailrat. They're still pretty foul.
