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can prove that global warming and cooling is a natural cycle - its documented everywhere. Hard fact evidence.Can you prove that global warming is caused by man? NO.
Sorry chaps - it is a fair point he's got there 😀
I can prove that global warming and cooling is a natural cycle - its documented everywhere. Hard fact evidence.
You're arguing from a false point. No one denies that natural global warming and cooling has happened in the past and continues to happen today.
Likewise no one suggests that current climate change is 100% man-made and the natural cycles have somehow disappeared. (I think most scientists agree that we still orbit the sun!)
But now we have an abrupt rise over the past 100 years that doesn't fit to an existing natural cycle. How do you explain that?
Either:
- it's a new natural cycle that just started for some unknown reason.
- or it's an existing cycle that for some unknown reason has left none of the usual evidence of temperature rise.
- or the fact that we have increased the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere by 40% in the last hundred years, to the highest level for at least 650,000 years, has somehow had a nasty effect.
I tell you what, we can come back in 100 years time when you are 106 and if we are living in a desert and its 5degs warmerd you can tell me you told me so if you like?
That's the attitude we need
For an interesting connection between CO2 levels and global temperature check out the Azolla effect.
There is no proof. There is a prediction based on sound science peer reviewed by countless scientists.
There is no proof of of natural climate change either.. there IS however, sound scientific studies and sound evidence that has lead the vast majority of scientists to conclude that there has been many instances of natural climatic change in the past.
You use the words proof, fact and theory interchangeably to suit your own personal belief.. That's not science... that's propaganda.
Mark, there is proof of historical climate change. Its not postulation or prediction, its proof.
Mark, there is proof of historical climate change. Its not postulation or prediction, its proof.
But no proof of a natural cycle that matches our current one. Why is that?
Meanwhile on the what 4x4 thread member Fisher has a home that consumes 20 000kWh/year and drives this (and thinks it's green because it's got an LPG conversion):
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The climatic change debate is inevitably going to cause conflict: between the cyclist and the RR driver, between the rich and poor, between corporate bullies and their victims, between haves and have nots. This is going to be a bumpy ride whether you're in an RR or not. Think now about where you want to be when oil and food are short.
Graham there is evidence to support that there are shorter period warming and cooling periods as well as the longer term trends. For example from about 1840 to 1890 the temperatures slowly rose by about 0.6degC. Then from 1890 to 1965 they slowly dropped by about 0.6degC. Predicting that cycle forward would suggest that we are now at a peak of temperature rise and in the next 50 years it will drop down again.
That is a hypothesis though and not fact! 😉
hainey,
I'm not the one who's not listening. I've asked you 2 direct questions. One of them 3 times. And you've not answered either of them.
Graham there is evidence to support that there are shorter period warming and cooling periods as well as the longer term trends.
And do you believe that the world's leading climatologists are unaware of this short cycle?
Let's try a different tact: do you accept that volcanoes may contribute to the existing natural cycles?
Volcanos have an effect on climate change, yes.
Right, if there were 100 times as many volcanoes as there are today, then does it seem likely that this would an effect on the climate?
Depends if they erupted or not.
Rightplaceright time, could you tell me if you are a troll or not?
troll
Depends if they erupted or not.
Say 100 times as many volcanoes as we have currently worldwide on land and sea, at the same activity levels as today (some erupting continuously, some smouldering, some dormant)?
Volcanos only have a significant impact on climate change if they have significantly massive eruptions where huge amounts of ash and sulphur are thrown into the atmosphere. General eruptions and activity etc i don't think has any effect.
The size of the particles also has a big effect, from what i remember from studies if large particles are thrown into the atmosphere then it blocks sunlight and has a cooling effect, but smaller fine micron size particles can have a magnifying effect and actually increase temperatures.
I am sure there is some research on the web about it.
In fact one of the interesting inadvertant things from Volcanos is there is a theory that Volcanic activity on the east pacific rise is in fact responsible for el-nino, a huge influence on our climate.
I havn't read much of this thread but it seems that many people will quite happily shit in there own bed.
I would have thought that most people would look after where they lived. Even if there is only a small chance of damaging it.
.
Right, so you agree volcanoes have an effect, but only in so much as the physical ash from eruptions, and not the continuous release of gases from all active volcanoes?
Even if that was suddenly increased by 100-fold?
worse they think sh1tting in it has no effect
As i said Graham, i am no expert on Volcanos unfortunately, i only am aware of the effects from mass eruptions not the general release of gas.
This is clearly a pointless argument. Why continue putting facts and figures on a screen. I know it you know it every one knows it. Its inconvienient to deal with so people deny it. Can we do anything to stop it? I don't know. Does flying x amount of scientists and x amounts of politicians to a place where they won't come to an agreement help? Does sitting on a computer and typing information help?
We are in a position to use our own common sense and regardless of what you believe, or choose to ignore, act. Will it make a difference though?
How can people in an ivory tower tell us to reduce our carbon footprint whilst they are increasing thiers?
I don't want to be trite but what a load of bs.
We almost certainly are affecting the world we live in. Unlike Michael Jackson however I don't believe looking in the mirror and making small changes is enough.
I know people have to travel to raise awareness etc but when Bono flys a hat out to a global warming awareness concert you have to ask yourself; is it even worth bothering? I could leave a light on for a year and it would still give me a smaller cf then if I flew items of clothing to wherever I am in the world.
As i said Graham, i am no expert on Volcanos unfortunately, i only am aware of the effects from mass eruptions not the general release of gas.
Ah well.. my argument is scuppered then 😀
I was going to make the point that volcanoes are an accepted part of the natural climate cycles.
Worldwide, volcanoes currently produce 200 million tonnes of CO2 annually.
If there were suddenly 100 times as many volcanoes then presumably this would have a notable effect on the climate.
[url= http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/volcanowatch/2007/07_02_15.html ]In 2003 we produced around 26.8 billion tonnes of CO2, more than 100 times the amount produced by the world's volcanoes.[/url]
Argument over 🙂
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/dec/09/sarah-palin-obama-boycott-copenhagen
I hate to say i told you so! 😉
I haven't read every post on here so someone may have already pointed this out.
Regional climate change caused by human activity is proven. Central Africa - where the rainforest have been clear felled, the rains have stopped - pointing to the fact that the forests create the ideal conditions for rain to occur. Where there are areas of rainforest remaining, the rains remain, so it's not just a coincidence of trees being felled and the rains stopping because of natural climate cycles.
This is anthropogenic climate change at work. If it happens regionally, it will affect it globally - see how weather systems work.
The leaked e-mails prove nothing. Most of it is scientific jargon that has been totally misinterpreted by politically motivated people. The CRU is one of possibly thousands of climate change research centres. All producing the same climate model.
Some people need to take their heads out of the sand.
And midgebait, seriously, you're gonna believe an article written by Sarah Palin?
Because that WON'T be politically motivated will it?
I hate to say i told you so!
You told us that a right wing American politician would write an op-ed article pushing a conservative message? Thanks!! I would never have predicted that!!
The emails reveal that leading climate "experts" deliberately destroyed records, manipulated data to "hide the decline" in global temperatures, and tried to silence their critics by preventing them from publishing in peer-reviewed journals.
Oh dear oh dear, and you trusted these scientists? 😉
Yep, Sarah Palin is my first choice for an entirely unbiased summary of that story.
Though sometimes I listen to Mohammad Al-Sabban (Saudi Arabia's lead climate negotiator) for a bit of balance to Miss Palin's crazy liberal hippy rhetoric.
Of course I listen to Sarah Palin. Despite being a bit on the liberal side she's got god on her side.
The only concern is that melting ice from the natural cyclical climate change gets to those commie polar bears before the armed militia can!
I still don't get what political stance has to do with environmental science. If I want to end all immigration, and kick foreigners out, and also hug trees and save the environment, will I make a big hole in the space time continuum?
The time for talk is over what have you actually done.
The StrathPuffer is in a few weeks. I'm burning as much stuff as possible in the hope of a bit of global warming in time for it. 🙂
Forget global warming as the problem. With oil supplies pretty much limited to 90 million barrels a day and falling, yet demand expected to exceed this by over 10 million barrels a day by 2011 there is a much bigger crunch on the near horizon.
[url= http://peakoiltaskforce.net/download-the-report/2010-peak-oil-report/ ]The Oil Crunch[/url]