[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-27865991 ]Generation Right[/url]
Aparently we are all getting a more right wing as we get younger!
Generation Y seemed self-reliant and self-confident. Can't find a permanent job? Don't claim benefits - go freelance. Need money? Sell some stuff on eBay. Got a problem at work? Don't join a union, just work hard and get on with it.
I'm not sure I could fault the work ethic however!
heard this trailed. This is terribly comendable and terribly sad all at the same time. 😕
They want to support gay marriage. They are relaxed about immigration but they do want to be tough on those who don't want to contribute to society. These mixes of views are not well represented by any of the main political parties.
Found myself agreeing with this statement. Good article.
Listened to this last night. As someone who would define themselves in the same way - economically right of centre but socially liberal, there are some positive aspects and some negative
Positive
1. No expectations of a welfare state - given the ageing and increasingly obese population, the welfare state as it currently stands will lead to a massive tax burden which the electorate are unlikely to be willing to pay for
2. Look after yourself work-wise = likely to lead to entrepreneurialism which could be a driver of economic growth as globalisation eats our lunch
3. Make your money for yourself - maybe the younger generation recognise how stupid it is to get yourself in a much debt as we have
negative
1. Distinct lack of community spirit. Contributing to your community helps resolve a lot of social problems and just makes life a lot nicer
2. very little evidence of an understanding of the benefits of collaboration, which is a great problem-solver
3. Deeply unsympathetic to people with personal issues like alcoholism and drug use. I'm hoping that was immaturity speaking rather than a genuine belief that alcoholics are entirely to blame for their situation
4. They seemed to have swallowed the myth that there's lots of people living the life of riley on benefits. I suspect they're believing too much of what they read in the papers
I'd be interested to know if this is UK-only or pan-Western/pan-European
Its hardly surprising really, is it? If you've spent your entire life in a political climate that champions unrestricted, unregulated capitalism, preached by all political parties, and all the media, with no alternative viewpoint?
Plus, they've figured out by now that the baby boomers spent all the money, then pulled the ladder up behind themselves... how would you feel? Not really a great advert is it?
The welfare state in its present state is ****ed! Totally unfit for purpose. As soon as you have any need to call on it, you realise this. The younger generation have more likelihood than any before them to, as there are no jobs. And nobody cares. So they've learnt what we already know. In todays society, you get into difficulty... you're on your own!
Thatcher has won - "there is no society" would be my summary from the above...
Everyone needs to be made to read from Rousseau's Social Contract onwards and think about where this leads. Either that or we need a proper war (one where we're under direct threat rather than foreign expeditions). Modern people are so far removed from the alternative to a mutually inter-dependant society that we're becoming conditioned to thinking that self-reliance is all we need to survive and prosper, which is pretty deluded.
17 years isn't really a long time and we've Mrs T et all preaching right wing mantra for a lot longer than that, so maybe this is just a result of that and a recent trend...
Failure to acknowledge to true co-dependencies of human society.
3. Deeply unsympathetic to people with personal issues like alcoholism and drug use. I'm hoping that was immaturity speaking rather than a genuine belief that alcoholics are entirely to blame for their situation
Who's responsibility is it then? Who was holding them at gun point or knife point, forcing the substances down their throats or into their veins until they became addicted?
Who's responsibility is it then?
Society for encouraging super markets to profit from loss leading alcohol promotions....
Brooess top marks for the most thoughful and balanced responce so far. I totally agree with your comments.
Society for me is as Whinston Churchill metaphor - there should be a ladder up which all should climb and a net beneath which no one should fall. Basically that there shoudl be a safety net for those not able to provide for themselves - what level the net is set is really the question.
Who's responsibility is it then? Who was holding them at gun point or knife point, forcing the substances down their throats or into their veins until they became addicted?
My experience of people with drug and drink problems has been that they tend to be the result of crappy childhoods - abusive or neglectful parents - and the resulting inability of the adult to deal with the ins and outs of life.
No-one I've ever know with a drink or drug problem has wanted to be that way...
Modern people are so far removed from the alternative to a mutually inter-dependant society that we're becoming conditioned to thinking that self-reliance is all we need to survive and prosper, which is pretty deluded.
I was hoping the internet and social media would foster a greater spirit of collaboration (e.g. some of the support we see on STW for people with relationship or depression problems) but according to the program last night, social media is being used now as one-to-one, not many to many.
But then I guess, every adult generation thinks the youth are spoilt, selfish and lazy... so in time when they've experienced a bit more of life, the more negative aspects of Gen Y will morph into a more mature outlook - just like us 😀
Positive
1. No expectations of a welfare state - given the ageing and increasingly obese population, the welfare state as it currently stands will lead to a massive tax burden which the electorate are unlikely to be willing to pay for
More money for myself
2. Look after yourself work-wise = likely to lead to entrepreneurial ism which could be a driver of economic growth as globalisation eats our lunch
More money for myself
3. Make your money for yourself - maybe the younger generation recognise how stupid it is to get yourself in a much debt as we have
More materialism for myself
I honestly don't see how generation Y is not going to get into debt to achieve the above.
I'm afraid the single diver being more money and more money means the consequences you put in the negative will create problems for those who don't fit generation Y's particular mould.
negative
1. Distinct lack of community spirit. Contributing to your community helps resolve a lot of social problems and just makes life a lot nicer
2. very little evidence of an understanding of the benefits of collaboration, which is a great problem-solver
3. Deeply unsympathetic to people with personal issues like alcoholism and drug use. I'm hoping that was immaturity speaking rather than a genuine belief that alcoholics are entirely to blame for their situation
4. They seemed to have swallowed the myth that there's lots of people living the life of riley on benefits. I suspect they're believing too much of what they read in the papers
As Binners says, the political climate here has been to the right for the last 30years, but I've found most people who believe in the above had very thatcherite parents.
When it comes to benefits, a lot of the problems with those these days is due to capitalism, tax credits/child allowances and the like paid to subsidise employers unwilling to pay more/high cost of living, even those who are unemployed long term and who are 40/50 somethings, where are the jobs/retraining for people of this age, and with 4 out of 5 jobs in the UK being created in London, how can they afford to move and live there?
We really have some serious long term problems in this country, which are not going to get solved by generation Y's money only attitude which is to simply cut these people off, considering a lot of generation Y's cushioned upbringing is pretty middle class, its no wonder they don't associate with others with less "fortunate" upbringings.
Think its been drummed into us that there is no help coming to us from govt. Unemployment benefit is just too hard to claim, we can't get on the housing ladder, I can't afford proper driving lessons. I'm chilled about immigration they're just looking for the same better life that I am. Getting a job is a nightmare, loads of my friends are stuck in maccy D or similar and they just know you can't get any other work so screw you over all the time ( extra shifts, zero hours, no breaks, no promotion) mate went for shop floor in waterstones, there were 200 applications, she's got a degree in biology!! Mad
Got no time to look after other people!!
I would be interested to see the sampling method and population for all this.
There is also little mention of other social factors that are widely reported (but may not of course be true in reality) such as young adults living with parents well into late twenties and beyond, pretty unusual when I was young - is this a return to a reliance on family rather than state? If so I'd have though it is likely to be burnt through in a generation.
This may just be a rational response of the young to the nature of society and its direction of travel as global competition for work drives down wages and associated benefits.
I also think that young adults tend not to have experienced the benefits of welfare systems ie parents not yet old enough to need social care, no kids needing education, healthy so not experienced NHS etc. So tax just seems like a black hole down which their wages disappear - probably made worse as they are having to pay for their University education directly as well as this.
I am generation X - so a bit of a slacker when the same age - but easier to do with no student debts and low housing costs - and although I have always worked, I've never really begrudged people on benefits and see benefit in collective public services. I am also tolerant of slightly less than perfect service from NHS etc as I remember the horrors of 2/3 year waiting lists for basic treatments, but in today's service culture I guess young people find it less acceptable and look for more.
How ****ing depressing.
This may just be a rational response of the young to the nature of society and its direction of travel as global competition for work drives down wages and associated benefits.
Simply don't agree. What has happened is that the younger generation have accepted that getting on requires hard work and self reliance. You want a payrise/promotion go get it. If thats not worksing set up your own business. Someone explain why this is not a good thing? What is does is make society more meritocratic.
Walk a mile in a man's shoes before thinking about stealing them.
What is does is make society more meritocratic.
If my "merit" you mean the ability to make lots of money. And success to be measured by the size of your house and newness of your car.
If my "merit" you mean the ability to make lots of money. And success to be measured by the size of your house and newness of your car.
That is exactly the point, its not communism you have a choice. Go out work hard, make lots of money or you could own your own business or do something you want to do but accept that the (monetary) rewards may not be as great.
The point is that the rewards, whatever you define these as, are down to you.
It's all very well moaning about people on benefits and the failings of the welfare state, but as I see it most of the benefits bill is going into private landlord's pockets. There needs to be loads more [i]cheap[/i] social housing built instead of thousands of 'luxury apartments' that no-one can afford to live in.
It's a bit of trap really. It's not like you can just say to yourself "hang on a minute, I'm not a 'consumer', I'm a man" and go and build yourself a hut in the woods and live happily ever after. The Duke of Westminster will come along and say "get off my land".
I sometimes hope for a [i]mild[/i] nuclear holocaust 😉
The point is that the rewards, whatever you define these as, are down to you
Perhaps your right. Perhaps we should dismantle the whole state apperatus. Then teachers and nurses and firemen could charge you what they are really worth and make a bit of money for themselves.
The point is that the rewards, whatever you define these as, are down to you.
You sure, ever heard of social mobility or specifically the lack thereof?
The point is that the rewards, whatever you define these as, are down to you.
Today is the same as it has always been - the most foolproof way to be a rich person is to be born one.
The question is what do you want? Equality or Equality of opportunity? I'd take the second every time.
On that basis if someone said to me, incresae inheritance tax to 100% - I would be sympathetic.
Interesting.
In my work - General Practice - where we do try and collaborate and do stuff to improve the service we and others offer - to improve local services - to support each other, all the leaders and people who are willing to work at it locally are aged 50-60. Getting the 30-40 year olds off their butts and into doing stuff which helps people beyond their immediate responsibility seems absolutely impossible. 🙁
The point is that the rewards, whatever you define these as, are down to you.
Capitlism has always been sold to us as the provision of opportunity for everyone to better themselves through hard work, entrepreneurial spirit etc. And if it were the reality, it'd be difficult to argue against
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rentier_capitalism ]Unfortunately, as todays news on the record rises in property prices graphically illustrate, this is what we have instead[/url]
And as a result, the rewards offered by a genuinely meritocratic capitalist system become further out of the reach of most, while increasing amounts of capital gravitate to those at the top, who do nothing whatsoever to earn it, but accumulate it as a direct result of already owning (usually inherited) wealth
The question is what do you want? Equality or Equality of opportunity? I'd take the second every time.
It might be your question here, but out in the actual world nothing even approaching either option is available to us.
Similarly, among Gen Y, the claim that "the creation of the welfare state is one of Britain's proudest achievements" is now supported by around 20% of people. When it comes to the pre-war cohort born before World War Two, the figure has stayed at around 70%.
Seems quite easily explained by the fact that the people who lived before it existed, know what that was like. The people who've never known anything else don't.
The yoofs barely experience it at present as well. - remember they paid for their education so they have less to value than we did.
I'm consistently struck by how level-headed many Gen Ys are. From the sixth formers who are willingly about to take on the burden of student debt
I am not sure why that should be considered level headed considering they saddle themselves with debt with little chance of career progression and often pick non vocational subjects where clearly the majority will fail to progress in it - media, games design, zoology, music, art etc.
When 50% of the populus have a degree there will be no "premium" for this.
a political climate that champions unrestricted, unregulated capitalism
Whilst supporting corporatism.
Disconnect, hence failure.
It doesn't matter what we think, as long as we keep buying stuff...
Capitalism and the welfare state go hand in hand, a successful country needs both working well to prosper.
As a young person I disagree with most of the Generation Right views broess points out.
I expect the welfare state to be there when life deals me a blow. Benefits are an absolute last resort for 99% of people, and while there is a small proportion of people who get a good deal out of them most people would rather be doing something else. We have just been marketed a different view by right wing media and governments. The state should provide as much as is reasonably possible like in Sweden to those who need it, and people who are better off because they have benefited from the society they live in should contribute more to fund that.
Better support from the government to my mind would reduce drug taking, alcohol abuse and a lot of crimes relating to money (which is, to a greater or lesser extent, most of them).
I feel like everyone should have a union- I don't like to sit at work being given a bum deal. I believe in almost absolute rights of workers above those of the business provided the business can keep afloat.
Immigration is simply not a worry.
While I appreciate a lot of that is unattainable and a bit idealistic, a right wing society like we live in now is a sure fire way to ruin the lives of the majority of people living in it.
When 50% of the populus have a degree there will be no "premium" for this.
What do you mean when - it's happened already. A BSc / BEng has been devalued hence most professions now ask for MSc / MEng and only from a proper institution. We no longer interview MSCs from some universities as it's fairly obvious they just sell the certificate and don't require any ability to be demonstrated.
Tony B was always banging on about a meritocracy, which probably means it's a bad idea. I suppose it's the modern equivalent of the old feudal justification for the aristocracy and social inequality, but instead of being 'God's will' it's because one is (or is not) 'worthy of merit'.
Its hardly surprising really, is it? If you've spent your entire life in a political climate that champions unrestricted, unregulated capitalism, preached by all political parties, and all the media, with no alternative viewpoint?
This is very true, the question is whose "fault" is it ?
Also very important, imo, is the fact that young people today are sold dreams. Completely unattainable for the vast majority of course but extremely well marketed so that individuals truly believe that it might be them that hits the jackpot. TV "talent" shows contribute greatly to that mindset.
Some years back a former gf was a careers advisor for schools, I remember her telling me how when asked in the interviews "what would you like to do when you leave school" many would answer "become famous". So somewhat exasperated she would ask them what their special talents or skills were and they would just shrug their shoulders.
But they genuinely believed that fame and fortune was attainable for them. When dreams are marketed as effectively as that then it's hardly surprising that the result is a right-wing mindset.
Obviously an awareness of the stark reality that what really awaits them is good shafting throughout their lives is likely to result in a slightly more rebellious attitude.
ernie_lynch - MemberSome years back a former gf was a careers advisor for schools, I remember her telling me how when asked in the interviews "what would you like to do when you leave school" many would answer "become famous".
Similiar story but "be famous" or "be a celebrity" but with no idea what for. Just, famous. So not even getting as far as wondering "what are my skills or what can i do, to achieve this" but no actual thought into what "this" is.
Anyone can be famous, just go on a murdering spree, it's definitely attainable.
Obviously an awareness of the stark reality that what really awaits them is good shafting throughout their lives is likely to result in a slightly more rebellious attitude.
This is why we need to start a mass concreting of large flat areas to create spaces for marching, theres nothing like hours of disciplined marching on cold, wet and hard parade grounds to steel a young mind and bring home the reality of monotony !
This will hopefully also eradicate the current trend for slouching, languidity and slovenliness.
Similiar story but "be famous" or "be a celebrity" but with no idea what for. Just, famous. So not even getting as far as wondering "what are my skills or what can i do
Well, SOMEONE'S got to put out the motorway cones and empty the bins...
Anyone can be famous, just go on a murdering spree, it's definitely attainable.
You should retrain as a Career Advisor...
Well, SOMEONE'S got to put out the motorway cones and empty the bins...
That's what Eastern Europeans are for.
footflaps - MemberYou should retrain as a Career Advisor...
There may be some mention of careers advice in my job description.
Its hardly surprising really, is it? If you've spent your entire life in a political climate that champions unrestricted, unregulated capitalism, preached by all political parties, and all the media, with no alternative viewpoint?
I would love to know which country you are referring to here Binners. We are so far away from unregulated capitalism in most of Europe, indeed most of the developed world, that any hints in where to look would be appreciated! 😉
The banking crisis, the current housing market problems and the € crisis, are among the most obvious examples of how we live in anything but unregulated markets and the consequences of that.
Mrs T, "there is no such thing as capitalism" was neither a policy nor an aspiration. It was meant as an observation and a warning. In that sense, it was a pretty astute comment.
Also very important, imo, is the fact that young people today are sold dreams. Completely unattainable for the vast majority of course but extremely well marketed so that individuals truly believe that it might be them that hits the jackpot. TV "talent" shows contribute greatly to that mindset.
A good point. The 40-60s generation lived through a sustained period where expectations were low but outcomes largely exceeded them. Hence they were largely happy. The current generation are now presented with unrealistic expectations and told that they can achieve anything. They will be the generation that will have their inflated expectations largely unfulfilled. Forget the RW generation (even if it exists, which I doubt) and focus on the unhappy generation and all that will go with this (it will take politicians ages to get this). And don't forget that on top of this we have passed on the expenditure/debt that is associated with our consumption bubble that we have enjoyed during our lifetimes to this future generation to fund. They will look on us, less fondly that we look on the WW1 generation I expect.
Mrs T, "there is no such thing as capitalism" was neither a policy nor an aspiration. It was meant as an observation and a warning. In that sense, it was a pretty astute comment.
Talking confused nonsense again THM ? 🙂
Thatcher called herself a capitalist and her crusade for "popular capitalism" was both a policy and an aspiration, as she explains here :
