[Closed] general election debate

I'd like to see the facts though rather than Liberal apologism for fear of sounding racist etc.

Theres seems to be a air of 'Im not touching that with a bargepole' already in councils and government over sensitive issues.

The two muppets who jumped on Farrage last night should have answered 'lets delve into that further' to pick apart his agenda or arguement but instead went for the blanket attack. ****s

It's just a way of saying its a responsible job, nothing more.

The funny ? Thing is hora, who gives a fudge where someone with HIV comes from I'm happy for my tax money to be spent helping them

Was it Sturgeon who said something about treating them like a human being?

Thats why its racist because you are devaluing someones life based on where they come from

I'd like to see the facts though rather than Liberal apologism for fear of sounding racist etc.

Well the fact is that most HIV sufferers are gay which is all you need to know

[img] [/img]

BTW hora .....

[img] [/img]

The funny ? Thing is hora, who gives a fudge where someone with HIV comes from I'm happy for my tax money to be spent helping them

Estimated 25 million sub-Saharan Africans living with HIV

I reckon that could screw up the NHS waiting times a bit....

IRATS..
But after a brief perusal, none of the seven screwed up disastrously, everyone has has their prejudices confirmed, no-one has changed their mind one jot and it was all a complete waste of time.

Hora

Page nine seems to roughly support Farage

ninfan - Member
Estimated 25 million sub-Saharan Africans living with HIV

I reckon that could screw up the NHS waiting times a bit..

Fortunately south Africa and kenya at least have their own decent treatment programmes (coz they buy their antiretrovirals from generic manufacturers)

Of course if you lie awake at night fearing the country is being overrun by AIDS riddled foreign folk then vote farige by all means

Can't believe I have to post this, but it's an opportunity not to be missed..

Page nine seems to roughly support Farage

When you say "seems to roughly support Farage" do you mean it shows that Farage got the figure for new cases of HIV wrong, failed to mention that news cases are significantly declining, and that his 60% figure is bollocks ?

From your link Z-11 :

[i]The proportion of new HIV diagnoses reported among people born in Africa halved from 54% in 2004 to 25% in 2013.[/i]

Is that what you mean by 'page nine seems to roughly support Farage' ?

The funny ? Thing is hora, who gives a fudge where someone with HIV comes from I'm happy for my tax money to be spent helping them

Because Hora, a lot of them will be illegals and its better to treat them than scare them off with hospital charges as it reduces risk to the rest of the population.

Its not liberal apologism, its common sense which the right appears to lack.

[img] [/img]

Isn't the Welsh NHS in a bit of a state at the minute?

It's creaking under the pressure from boatloads of HIV riddled invaders.

Don't forget to vote for the man who knows how to smile and hold a pint, he'll sort the NHS out.

[img] [/img]

Of course he'll solve the problem by just scrapping the NHS :

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-nhs-might-have-to-be-replaced-by-private-health-insurance-9988904.html ]Nigel Farage: NHS might have to be replaced by private health insurance[/url]

And encouraging people to smoke. After all drinking and smoking hasn't done him any harm, it's just nanny state/health and safety gawn mad, innit?

[img] [/img]

farage: (noun) the liquid found at the bottom of the bin or waste container.
(pronounced fah-ridj in the south and fah-radj in the north)

hora - Member

UKIPs are knobs but 60% of new HIV cases/diagnosed a year arent British Nationals?

If it is a fact then he is just telling us that he does not want to spend money towards non-British considering that is the tax payers money. Yes he is not generous but then they are many who are not generous. Not everyone will agree to spend money on non-British put it this way. You might be generous but it certainly is not cheap. I think we should bill the other govt and let their govt deal with their own citizen as they wish.

That aint going to a burden or problem is it? Political point scoring aside that is worrying.

There are many things that are Not a burden to the country. What's the statistic of mental health by comparison to non-British HIV treatment? How much do you spend on that by comparison?

chewkw - Member

If it is a fact then he is just telling us that he does not want to spend money towards non-British considering that is the tax payers money.

But he's ignoring that non-british people are also workers and taxpayers. The NHS itself is hugely dependent on the dreaded foreigns.

And imo, he's specifically directing it at HIV rather than other healthcare issues because he hopes people will connect that with africa and gays.

Northwind - Member

But he's ignoring that non-british people are also workers and taxpayers. The NHS itself is hugely dependent on the dreaded foreigns.

The bulk of the contribution still come from British families. Yes, no denying non-British workers also contribute. However, if you rely on foreigners workers to probe up the NHS then you have a massive problem as the system is absolutely screwed No politicians will be able to solve that.

And imo, he's specifically directing it at HIV rather than other healthcare issues because he hopes people will connect that with africa and gays.

I think it's the cost that he is trying to demonstrate which is £25,000 per course per person? Not sure if there is a guarantee of a cure but it's very expensive. I am not sure people will make that connection of gays from Africa but I certainly don't know that until you mentioned it.

I don't mind treating them but I just cannot treat them for free so I would rather their govt contribute some of the cost or we bill their govt. In return they can charge British govt too if they so wish for British citizen using their medical facilities abroad. It's only fair.

Ernie

[i] Data on country of birth was available for 83% of people newly diagnosed with HIV. The proportion of new HIV diagnoses reported among people born in Africa halved from 54% (3,460/6,420) in 2004 to 25% (1,240/4,980) in 2013. [b]This has resulted in an increase in the proportion of new diagnoses reported among people born in the UK (from 32% (2,040/6,420) to 46% (2,220/4,980)) [/b]over the same period.[/i]

Seems pretty clear, people born in the UK currently account for only 46% of new diagnoses, though historically it has been even lower (due to a drop in the number of African born patients) - that means 54% of new diagnosis is in foreign born patients! which certianly puts Farages figure of 7k and 60% non UK citizen in the ballpark, considering there may be more recent figures.

Not sure if there is a guarantee of a cure but it's very expensive. I am not sure people will make that connection of gays from Africa but I certainly don't know that until you mentioned it.

You don't appear to know much about HIV Chewwy - it's incurable. And read Northwind's post properly, he wrote : [i]"he hopes people will connect that with africa and gays".[/i] Surely you have heard of the increased risks of HIV in Africa and between gay men?

.

However, if you rely on foreigners workers to probe up the NHS then you have a massive problem as the system is absolutely screwed.

It's not foreigners workers who are probing the NHS, it's the Tories who are giving it a massive deep shafting. And yes it will be absolutely screwed by the time they've finished.

chewkw - Member

I am not sure people will make that connection of gays from Africa

<insert orly owl> To start off, I didn't say "gays from africa".

And come on... He's talking about immigrants with HIV, you don't think he expects people to make a connection with africa?

And talking about HIV, rather than immigrants with frinstance hep B which costs us way more than HIV- you think he didn't choose that because of the past stigma of HIV in the UK?

It's a strange connection to make, I tend to think more about the subjugation of women in African society and strange cultural practices like dry sex

I tend to think more about the subjugation of women in African society

As an admirer of Nigel Farage I'm sure that you spend sleepless nights thinking about the subjugation of women in African society.

ninfan - Member

It's a strange connection to make, I tend to think more about the subjugation of women in African society and strange cultural practices like dry sex

When people talk about immigrants with HIV this is what you think about?

I see you've given up trying to call either me or Farage out on the figures regards your earlier claim that the 60% figure was 'bollocks' and resorted to ad-hom and personal attacks again Ernie 😆

I've given up tying to have a sensible discussion with you Z-11, but that was a long time ago 🙂

So explain your concern about the subjugation of women in African society and strange cultural practices like dry sex ? This should be a laugh - seeing your pro-feminist side.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/03/nicola-sturgeon-snp-supporters-edinburgh-leaders-debate ]I see Nicola Sturgeon has been greeted with a heroes welcome back in Edinburgh on her return[/url]. Never in my life in this country did I expect a political leader to be treated with such adoration. Just doesn't seem very British. Maybe that's why they want to leave?

Where did I say I was concerned about it?

Edit: (Though to be fair, given how you managed to fall flat on your face with 'a contract that doesn't guarantee any hours isn't a zero hours contract' and then call Farage a liar when it turns out he's right, I think that african women might not be the only ones with sand in their vaginas today)

Hopefully Sturgeonmania will have a more positive effect than Cleggmania which iirc resulted in 5 less seats for the Liberal Democrats.

Where did I say I was concerned about it?

Well that's a relief .... a right-wing UKIP supporter who doesn't give a toss about the subjugation of women in African society and strange cultural practices like dry sex, but thinks about it.

For a moment I thought that the world had gone mad.

Hopefully Sturgeonmania will have a more positive effect than Cleggmania which iirc resulted in 5 less seats for the Liberal Democrats.

Cleggmania

Every time I see that word these days I can't help but laugh at such an absurd concept. Certainly none of it last night. He seemed about as resigned to his fate as Saddam on the way to the gallows.

[quote=ninfan ]Seems pretty clear, people born in the UK currently account for only 46% of new diagnoses, though historically it has been even lower (due to a drop in the number of African born patients) - that means 54% of new diagnosis is in foreign born patients! which certianly puts Farages figure of 7k and 60% non UK citizen in the ballpark, considering there may be more recent figures.

Where are these more recent figures which nigel is relying on then? Given the reported trend it would seem likely that the proportion born in the UK is increasing, so making his claim even more inaccurate. When you say "roughly support", is that like being a little bit pregnant, given that even if you round to the nearest 10% you still don't get the figure he's claiming. If you're going to try and score points on such a pathetic issue, at least get your facts straight.

When was this?

May 2010.

EDIT/CORRECTION : Cleggmania started in April 2010 :

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cleggmania-spreads-across-britain-1947687.html ]Cleggmania spreads across Britain[/url]

The Liberal Democrats went on to lose 5 seats in May 2010.

When you apply for a work visa in Singapore you are asked if you've ever had an HIV test. If when you are living there you test positive you will be required to leave

@dazh have you seen how they carry on after a US Presidential debate ? Sturgeon returned home to thr invited audience who did as instructed and went wild, tv cameras where cinveniently on hand to capture the moment

Sturgeon returned home to thr invited audience who did as instructed and went wild, tv cameras where cinveniently on hand to capture the moment

Pish.

Where are these more recent figures which nigel is relying on then? Given the reported trend it would seem likely that the proportion born in the UK is increasing, so making his claim even more inaccurate. When you say "roughly support", is that like being a little bit pregnant, given that even if you round to the nearest 10% you still don't get the figure he's claiming. If you're going to try and score points on such a pathetic issue, at least get your facts straight.

I don't know which figures he's using, or how he has averaged or aggregated them, why don't you ask him?

Regardless, the point still stands that established figures prove they are certianly in the ballpark where they could very well be accurate, and that's got to [b]really[/b] grate with the lefties who try to suppress this type of discussion - maybe they should get their facts straight before accusing him of scaremongering?

have you seen how they carry on after a US Presidential debate ?

Yes, but that's america, it's pretty much obligatory to behave like that. We're talking about supposedly dour scots who have had a lifetime of being shafted by every politician who has ever stood in front of them. Strange times.

We're talking about supposedly dour scots who have had a lifetime of being shafted by every politician who has ever stood in front of them. Strange times.

Good times.

We're talking about supposedly dour scots who have had a lifetime of being shafted by every politician who has ever stood in front of them.

It took a while, but we're finally getting a bit annoyed about that.

Anyhow, have we done Nick Griffin's advert yet?

[img] [/img]

I only wish I could look that cool in a kilt 😀

that's got to really grate with the lefties who try to suppress this type of discussion

Oh please don't let anyone stop you, go ahead and inform us about the boatloads of HIV riddled foreigners who are invading our shores to sponge off our over generous health care provisions.

There's really very few things that I enjoy more than an ill-informed raging right-wing rant.

It's what made Alf Garnett so hugely popular and amusing.

So don't be shy..........tell us your thoughts 🙂

Cleggmania

Northwind - Member

<insert orly owl> To start off, I didn't say "gays from africa".

Yes, you did not.

And come on... He's talking about immigrants with HIV, you don't think he expects people to make a connection with africa?

I really did not make that connection at all as my understanding is that that he was speaking in a general health tourism term by using one example of cost implication to treat HIV.

And talking about HIV, rather than immigrants with frinstance hep B which costs us way more than HIV- you think he didn't choose that because of the past stigma of HIV in the UK?

Nope. I don't know about that too but if that is a case then where is the screening? Bear in mind when I came here I had to go through all the health screening so I am not sure why the very serious ones were not identified.

Also why are male with male "backdoor" pleasure have the potential to develop into HIV while male with female "backdoor" pleasure do not? Genuine question btw.

My view is that gays are prosecuted in many other developing or 3rd world nations but I thought their numbers are low. i.e. population of gays in those countries. Therefore, if they come over here and to sort help then I think their govt should pay/contribute something towards their medication and not having them for free. As the illness cannot be cured the question is how long should we continue to pay for someone's chosen lifestyle? I have nothing against their lifestyle but if they take the risks of non-protective sex then I think they have been selfish. Yes, some may have been infected by other means while their country, I still think their govt should be billed due to the incompetence of spreading the problems.

I have no problem in helping others in medication or being generous in that respect but if this is a major problem then something must be done. Just because it is health related does not mean we can simply give out free medication because someone got to pay for those cost and nothing is free in this world.

someone's chosen lifestyle

Is being gay a lifestyle choice?