[Closed] A Summer of Cricket - SPOILERS

I might just add it's not a good idea to discuss the finer points of this with an Aussie while trying to thread [s]my[/s] your way through a tight set of rock drops.

Damm Karma

Morning all. Missed commenting last night, internet issues. Thought broadigate would be a hot topic.

Two points.

1 - it's top level sport, not a jazz hat game. Batters bat, bowlers bowl, umpires umpire. For better or worse, if he gives you out you go, if he doesnt , stand there. Sure drs is supposed to allow you to appeal the howler, that's where Clarke gets it wrong, he uses them on perhaps and maybes. Maybe he'll learn from it.

2 - I'm going to stand up for the umpires here. It wasn't as bad as it looked. Broad didn't edge to slip, it was a late cut feather edge that haddin spilled to first slip. At full speed, very easy for the umpire to know that haddin had gloved it but also very possible to not be sure that broad had edged it. Have any of the haterz umpired at any level? Do they know how hard it is. Again, comes back to drs but this is where it is used wrong. He'd have known pretty instantly he'd made a mistake, he should be able to go upstairs and ask for help. I'm not saying to review every decision, that undermines the point of an on field umpire, but be there to give help if he asks for it.

Will karma bite back? Is it already karma for the hundred trott was going to make or the 90-odd agar got after he was out (possibly). Will the aussies think we're all against them and crumble. Or will Lehman galvanise them into a f- you all, we'll show you response. The next hour will be critical. Isn't test cricket fabulous.

Lastly - well played belly. Lots of pressure answered brilliantly, you've gone a fair way to winning this game for us. Get the hundred this morning, you deserve it.

TOJ - among all of this there is a simple fact - Broad cheated. Now as I suggested earlier there are "degrees of cheating" if that makes sense? Nevertheless, this was about as blatant as you could get. But I don't see the top level sport issue. This is the pinnacle of cricket now being debased by blatant cheating. There was no marginal edge, glove or arm, bat or pad. This was a clear misplayed cut that went straight into the slips hands. If this is acceptable simple because it's top class sport, then we can no longer complain about the drugs cheats in sport. They are (1) doing what others do - which seems a common defence here, and/or (2) doing what needs to be done at top level. The Lance Armstrong defence perhaps?

So Peterson's defence includes - " we play fair" - obviously not, as you openly cheat and "we respect the umpire" again cleary not. But Grum, thanks for the Guadian head up as it quotes Broad himself in the MCC Spirit of Cricket (sic) campaign:

But it's important that you do play fair – you respect the opposition and you respect the umpires. At the end of the day you're there to entertain the crowd and they need to see cricket played in the right way."

Quite! So the right way is clear. It's called blatant cheating.

Thank goodness for Aggers - a lone voice of decency among coverage/ex internationals.

He didn't cheat, can we get that straight please. He didn't break any rules to gain an advantage. You can argue that his actions were not in the spirit of the game for certain but he did not cheat.

Cheating is cheating. Simple as. The laws of cricket state that if you hit the ball and it is caught cleanly you are out. The laws do not say you are only out if the umpire gives you out.

Broad looked embarrassed to stand there. And so he should. The Aussies, of course, have no moral high ground from which to complain, but that's not the point.

I agree that it wasn't as bad as the slo mos made it look. I was particularly nauseated by that smarm ball Mark Nicholas ranting on about it on the Five highlights. He's got a lot of opinions for a run of the mill county player who was renowned for his yellow streak when facing anyone with a bit of pace.

The trott decision was marginal to say the least. When all is considered, he was beaten all ends up by a nice in swinger, I actually thought it was bat and pad simultaneously.

The Agar one was too close to give out. At real speed and slowed down.

I'd like to see a new ruling. If a fielding team appeals, but the batsman is given not out by the on field umpire, if they then turn down the option of a review, they should be docked five runs. If you didn't think it was out, you shouldn't be appealing for it!

By the way, I was a left arm seamer for 20 years before packing in playing, so I do know what I'm on about. I always refused to appeal even if my keeper and slips went up for a non existent edge off of my bowling. I played premier league cricket in my home county.

I only ever stood my ground once having nicked one. That was when my best mate strangled me down the leg side first ball of a knockabout game at school. I couldn't have coped with a lifetime of shit if he'd done me first up.

Double post

Law 1.4 and Law 42.1?

The laws of cricket make specific reference to the responsibility to play cricket within the spirit and traditions of the game. IMO, cheating involves deliberately flouting the rules of the game. Holding makes a good point in the Guardian article about the Ramdin suspension. Will same sanction be applied here?

Anyway, I am happy that karma will sort it out in the end, but less happy that "if" we win it will be a dirty win. Bit like my old team Leicester Tigers after the Neil Back hand in the scrum incident. Hollow and dirty in what is/was enthralling sport. Pity that.

Yep, Clarke wasted his DRS appeals, but there's no way he should have had to even think about reviewing Broads dismissal... stupid appalling umpiring, I reckon that's the last we'll see of Dar for a few tests...

Give over. Dar is a superb umpire, he just made a bad call. Typical whinging Aussie 🙂

Why is Broad 'cheating' any worse than the Aussies claiming Trott's LBW despite an obvious edge? On balance the Aussies are still ahead in this game on bad umpiring decisions so the bleating needs to stop.

BTW the Australian argument was always that actually they show respect to the umpire by not walking - the umpire is the only one with the authority to make the decision. It's not the same as falsely claiming a catch at all. And comparing him to a drugs cheat is ridiculous IMO.

And comparing him to a drugs cheat is ridiculous

Totally agree. Fatuous statement of over-reaction to a one off incident. Maybe he ate the wrong piece of beef the prior evening? 😉

This was a clear misplayed cut that went straight into the slips hands

No, no and three times no. It was a feathered edge from a late cut that went off Haddin's gloves to slip. That's what fooled the Umpire, as i said above (and I assume you DID read it, in the same way as you have watched the incident properly), he would have been sure that the ball ended up at slip off the keeper's gloves, but would he have been sure that broad had edged it first??

And anyway this is all taking attention from Ronald's magnificent innings.

Comparing him to a drug cheat is ridiculous.

With reference to the "hand of Back" incident, I couldn't agree more. Tigers are my team too, but I can't stand a lot of the 'johnny come lately' supporters of recent years who stand by the Tigers no matter what.

Martin Johnson was a magnificent player. Fact. He was also one of the dirtiest players in the league. Had he played for another club, the Welford Road crowd would have treated him like a pantomime villain. Corne Krige was flamed for elbowing johnno in the face at Twickenham. If you look at the photo in krige's book just before the elbow, you see johnno practically strangling him.

There is a clear line between right and wrong, and you are being disingenuous if you apply it differently to teams that you like or dislike.

By the way, having not cheated myself when playing cricket, I was never shy of letting a batsman know he was a cheat if he nicked one and didn't walk. It's not a weakness to play fair. Adam Gilchrist could vouch for that.

So if an Englishmen (pseudo or otherwise) and an Aussie cheat its ok, but heaven forbid if you are a West Indian or a ****stani. There is a word for that.

A precendent was set by Ramdin and ironically was judged by Chris Broad whose comments on this type of behaviour are clear and categorical. Inconsistent, hypocritical or simply racist *? At the very least, Chris Broad needs to give his son some Fatherly advice.

West Indies wicket-keeper Denesh Ramdin has been suspended for two one-day matches and fined 100 per cent of his match fee for wrongly claiming a catch in the Champions Trophy. Match referee Chris Broad charged Ramdin following a hearing in London after the wicket-keeper had pleaded not guilty to the offence."This is regarded as a serious offence as it is the responsibility of all players to act in the spirit of the game," Broad said in a statement released by the International Cricket Council.

TOJ, yes sorry did read your comments but like Aggers commentating at the time, I will simply disagree. He saw it clearly live and at full speed and made the instant acknowledgment that Broad was out on the TMS commentary.

Edit: dannyh, good call. "disingenuous" is probably the best adjective here.

There is a clear line between right and wrong

The reason we are still having this discussion is precisely because there isn't though.

As others have mentioned he edged it to the keeper not first slip. Most players don't walk it is a fact of modern cricket. I didn't I still don't and being a bowler had my fair share stand against me and be given not out (best one was caught 3 slip!).
The decision has no similarity to the trott or agar ones as they were 3rd umpire calls all be it poor ones!

Broad was within his rights to stand and did so.

A precendent was set by Ramdin and ironically was judged by Chris Broad whose comments on this type of behaviour are clear and categorical. Inconsistent, hypocritical or simply racist

Wow.

As above, why do you not have the same scorn for constant appeals which clearly have no basis?

It really is a shame that hysterical bleating has taken over this thread - it's been a superb game so far - if you're not enjoying this then cricket probably isn't for you.

Leaving it up the umpire to decide is not at all the same as pretending to have taken a catch - however many times you say it. 🙄

Now, Stuart Broad... sorry, but that was outright cheating,

Will you be calling Trott back for another go because if not that is just as much “cheating” as in it was the wrong decision? You will wont you? I mean you cheated by appealing for somethign that was not out etc

Broad wasn't a rough call, he knew he was out,

Do you really think he will be the only batsmen who thinks he is out this series and does not walk – granted none of the others will be as blatant

Broad cheated

This was a clear misplayed cut that went straight into the slips hands.

But it's important that you do play fair – you respect the opposition and you respect the umpires.

The laws do not say you are only out if the umpire gives you out.

Will same sanction be applied here?[ dropped catch player banned]

Dropping a catch and claiming you did not is worse IMHO as that is deliberately trying to deceive the umpire. Broad did not try to deliberately deceive the umpire he just made a poor call

I think he should have walked but the rules are not evenly applied

I am sure batters would if every bad call was overturned

but heaven forbid if you are a West Indian or a ****stani. There is a word for that.

Grum, I do (have the same scorn) and in this case the ****stanis are among the worst culprits IMO.

I am enjoying the game, largely, and cricket is for me as I have played it for 40 odd years from schoolboy county level to village/league cricket now. FWIW, our village cricket team dropped out of the league for the very simple reason that we got fed up with constant cheating and poor atmosphere that was become all too common in club league cricket.. We only play teams that want to play cricket in the same way that we do and we now enjoy it much more. We try to apply the laws quoted above to our mini-league. As KP and Gilchrist have both said, for different perspectives, we all take personal responsibility for our behaviour.

Broad has made his decision and so be it. I hope the match carries on its entertaining way. Then I hope that the authorities do the correct thing rather than appear "disingenuous" !!!

(p.s. I am not comparing SB to a drugs cheat, rather the arguments that justify his behaviour.)

Anyway beautiful weather outside, so I wish you all a nice ride before entertaining cricket later. Shame that Swinley STW clashes with the Test match.

I really like the notion of a team withdrawing from league cricket because of the poisonous atmosphere that can infect some leagues.

The vast majority of games I played were hard but fair, but over the years there were some really nasty ones.

I played one game where one of our lads deliberately targeted one of their players over his fairly public and well known divorce. This guy, to his credit, put up with it for a while. He then lost it and brought up the subject of our player's dad who had died of cancer.

I was embarrassed and ashamed to be on the pitch at the time. I had tried to calm our player down a couple of times before the eventual blow-up, but no one was listening. The whole game was an endless stream of abuse, much of it personal, downright cheating and bad feeling.

That was one of the worst I can remember, but there were others.

I did let myself down a couple of times, but not outright cheating.

One incident I do regret was one later in my playing days, when I had dropped down to our seconds. I was still quick enough to do batters for pace. In that league it wasn't unknown for the square leg umpire to be from the batting side. We had a cut and dried stumping. Miles out. The batter started to walk, but then came back. There was a 'scene'. Anyhow, when they were nine down and I was trying to clean up the tail, in walks the square leg umpire at eleven. No lid. Our keeper told me to bounce him first up. I had my doubts, but did it anyway. It floored him, hitting him smack in the middle of the forehead. Thankfully on a thick bit of bone.

He should have been wearing a lid. There was nothing in the rules to say I couldn't do it. But it wasn't the 'right' thing to do. If he'd hung around for a few overs, yes, but first up to a number eleven?

You have to have some compass and responsibility, whether its verbals, catches, bouncers. Whatever.

When I played cricket, one incident sticks in my mind. I took a catch down leg side that had clearly to me come off the thigh pad. The bowler and slippers appealed and the umpire, a well known and respected senior panel umpire, gave it out. My instinct was to wave my hand in that 'not out' sort of gesture. The batter saw it and stood his ground. He challenged me and then the umpire about was it a fair catch. What would you have done there?

He did not cheat.

If you're given out, you're out. If you're not, you're not. Walk if you want, but there is no obligation, certainly not in a match at this level.

I watched Clarke do just what Broad did in Adelaide in 2010, only England still had a DRS, and Clarke made it very obvious he was unhappy with it being reviewed, and the rather obvious outcome. You reap what you sow...

Anyway, he's out now - top score against Oz too. Good on him!

In that case, I would have said to him that i had taken it cleanly, but that I didn't think he'd nicked it. I would also say to him that he obviously did think he HAD nicked it because he'd started to walk. If he had any sense of fair play he would go, in my opinion. But ultimately that would be up to him. I wouldn't have been bothered if the rest of the fielders gave him a hard time if he'd stayed put.

I have seen a couple of these types of 'too many people trying to do the right thing' incidents as well, but at least these ended in laughter rather than rancour.

Aleem Dar is a fine umpire btw. He revolutionised test umpiring almost single handedly by breaking with accepted practice and giving batters out lbw to spinners even if they had got a big stride in. The number of instances where he has been shown to be right on these is outstanding.

That was another pet hate of mine. Batters questioning decisions if they felt they'd got a decent stride in.

On a sub note, have a look at a picture of Robin Smith batting in the early 90s. He used to wear youth pads with extra padding above the roll, where his knee actually was. This was to get marginal lbws to go his way when the umpire was using the knee roll as a guide!

Down at Bell's end...

*s****s*

Just saw Smith blatantly cheating - claiming a catch that was clearly off the pad. Burn him!

Hmmm, another 2 wkts down and a 300 lead so far.

Not enough IMO

Jimmy Anderson ton FTW 😉

Aggers saying only 4.7% of matches where there's been a chase of >300 have been won by the side batting last.

I'm happy to be marginally confident

Hmmm, another 2 wkts down and a 300 lead so far.
Not enough IMO

Well 300 would already be a record run chase in a fourth innings at Trent Bridge, and the ball is swinging. 300-odd should be plenty

Yep, if we can't defend 300 odd in the last dig on a dry turner then England will have either bowled and fielded incredibly badly, or been well beaten by an outstanding batting performance. Neither of which I think will happen.

If I was the Aussies I would be worried about the rest of the series. Their seamers have moved the ball far less than England's and Agar is not the bowler that Swann is.

Agars innings was fantastic, fairy tale stuff, but it was a freak occurence. Without it, oz would have been out of contention by lunch on the second day.

Excellent - finally got TMS and TV in sync here in Oz. Took a lot of effort mind you!

Well, it's a big target to chase, but a solid start so far... Given their instructions would have been to get through to lunch with no loss of wickets, they've still scored 4 runs an over, interesting don't you think? Target is now revised to 283, and that's less than the record for Trentbridge 😉

[img] http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQPVA-GjV6-Ybm2lC7i7Vt4Vx8KccWjfSuR680syK03k6CzEjBl [/img]

😀 😉 Let's see what the next session brings... Yet another twist? Or the standard predictable outcome the Poms are expecting? I'm off to bed, so will see what news the morning brings, night all 😀

I would proffer that England are 50 runs shy of safety and despite the potential for prodigious turn, the hot sun will make it flat and slow and little chance of swing either way and the seam less effective as the ball softens.

The Aussies will be saying that they need only 50 odd runs per session and on that basis are well in with a shout.

It'll be over by tea tomorrow with the Aussies winning by 4 wickets.

You heard it here first and if I was a betting kinda chap, I'd have a wiggle on that as I reckon the odds would be quite favourable.

No lots of credit to you whatever the result - though if he had been stumped it would look much different

Either way Aussies have been competitive, which surprised a few of us, and it has definitely been a game

A lot of credit to be taken from this performance whatever the actual result turns out to be

Ok I'm officially starting to worry now.

Its has been interesting and yes they seem to be on the upper hand and England need to scuttle a few and fairly quickly

Keep going Aussie. It would be better to see a classy win than a dirty one!

Oh give it a rest. 🙄

Their appeal for Trott's wicket was just as 'dirty' as Broad standing his ground. I bet most of them knew Trott had nicked it.

Or how about cynically using DRS for speculative LBW shouts, which isn't what it was designed for, then running out of appeals and throwing a hissy fit? Really classy.

It would be better to see a classy win than a dirty one!

Why would it be a dirty win?

Get in! Collapse starts now hopefully.

What a dirty cheat Watson is, why didn't he walk as soon as he was given out? 😉

Watson's a slow learner on this review business, isn't he...

Oh give it a rest.

You think he should have walked most folk dont
As others note it is not the only point in this game where the umpires decision and the reality were different

Arguably Trotts one broke the actual rules of the game rather than just your spirit of the games rules

FWIW I think batsmen should actually walk but it has been decades since this actually happened at test level and as Boycs said no one will be recalling Tritt to have another go so swings and roundabouts and all that. it might be better if everyone did but the reality is no one does and had that been an aussie batter he would also have stood there [ and possibly appealed if given out 😛

The scoundrel

Sorry forget that different views could not be tolerated!

I have never justified others cheating either, quite the contrary. But I would like to see Aussie's now complete a classy victory with a big final innings. (BTW, Not my rules JY - the spirit of the game is written in clearly as referenced earlier.)

For some, the swings and roundabouts are Trott and Broad. Fair enough. For me it would be an Aussie win. So go Aussie!!

(mods feel free to delete, if we can only post if supporting one team!)