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It’s not a problem Drac. I’m in no way expecting I’ll satisfy everyone with anything we decide to do. There are those who will just hate us and in particular, me regardless of anything that is said or done. That’s just the way it works. In the meantime we’ll just keep doing what we think is right, knowing that for some it will be wrong.
Speaking personally, I don't hate you or anyone on here. I've made my peace with the forum going in a certain direction. It's your baby and you can do with it as you have and will.
I'm just about sitting in the cheap seats throwing peanuts.
I'm just playing around..
I'm a bit bored..
<span style="text-decoration: underline;">I'm about to post a video..</span>
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It’s not a problem Drac. I’m in no way expecting I’ll satisfy everyone with anything we decide to do. There are those who will just hate us and in particular, me regardless of anything that is said or done.
No real hate just the deafening silence was getting a bit much, there was a lot of stuff properly broken and only Drac and Cougar trying to placate people.
BUT....
Hi all.
Our plan and how it has turned out has well, gone as expected.
I tried to explain at the start of this thread what our approach was and why. Clearly that’s been lost or I just didn’t make it clear enough.
If you expected to break all these things in day one then was there not some time to sort some of them out?
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Anyway best of luck fixing all the stuff, I'm hoping that the bread and butter forum posting of words, quotes, pics and videos ends up being simple and with a lot less clicks than it is now.
Finally one of the hardest lessons I have learned in customer relations, project delivery and project cock ups is that you write your combative and defensive reply, file it somewhere and then do the slightly apologetic one.
Finally one of the hardest lessons I have learned in customer relations, project delivery and project cock ups is that you write your combative and defensive reply, file it somewhere and then do the slightly apologetic one.
It’s good to see some progress being made and some interaction from the powers that be. Keep it up!
That quote above is absolutely right. I’ve got a few fruity drafts in my outlook folders at work. When I’m feeling a bit passive-aggressive after rowing back from what I’d really like to send, I have a read of them, have a s**** and fantasise about actually sending them!
Finally one of the hardest lessons I have learned in customer relations, project delivery and project cock ups is that you write your combative and defensive reply, file it somewhere and then do the slightly apologetic one.
What I learnt is you don’t apologise unless it’s meant and you have made a mistake, if the complainant is wrong you tell them why they are wrong.
There are those who will just hate us and in particular, me regardless of anything that is said or done.
Is that really how you see it?
Well here’s one example of emails we occasionally receive.
“You're a ****ing **** mate.”
So I hope you can see what Mark is getting at.
I meant that affectionately, Drac.
“You’re a * * mate.”
You have mates?
Who'da thunk it? 😉
I can Drac and abusive emails are totally unacceptable, but I hope he and the rest of the staff can see where their customers are coming from too, the updates are a good start, a couple of weeks late but a start. Most of us just wanted an idea of what was going on, when things were going to be fixed and what the end game was.
I will leave it there as emotions seem to be running high there.
Mark explanation does help
So I think what you are saying is that you haven't yet started fixing the issues we see. You are fixing issues behind the scenes. Then you will fix the errors we can see
Thanks
I think the 4th word in that was mean for me PP.
Jamie I missed your reply I was directing at you,
We can see the genuine complaints yes Mike, it was explained at least once before but got buried.
Yes and no Ampthill, some of the issues have been fixed, hopefully you can now see why it was slow and why the others will be a little while longer.
“You’re a * * mate.”
Well, now now dear fellow. Thats just down right rude!
Can we have the name of the offender 😉
Should we start a thread and guess who it is??
We have a number of forumites who would be so bold, we could start a sweepstake..
If I'm thinking of the same incident, that particular gem was from a (now former) classifieds-only user who took umbrage at us for having the audacity to remove one of his adverts (which IIRC was a URL to an advert on another website and not much else). He got a month's ban for his initial outburst and a life ban for his subsequent response to that suspension. Proper charmer.
(No, I can't remember the username, and wouldn't disclose it if I did.)
Thanks for the update, Mark
“What I learnt is you don’t apologise unless it’s meant and you have made a mistake, if the complainant is wrong you tell them why they are wrong.“
I’m assuming you don’t require goodwill at any point from the person complaining?
Never assume Zokes.
True Drac but your customers have no choice and admission results in law suits.
Rest of us means customer is kind of right and in this case no matter what the underlying reasons the upgrade has been shite, if you want to defend it then carry on, from a user perspective it's shite. Features broken, no help, no explanation. no advice as to how any new featrure/****up worked etc. Finally the owner showed up and still doesn't manage to apologise to his customers about how shambolic the upgrade was.
Anyway still waiting for some confirmation about my address change back to the UK, adjustment to the RoW mag charge etc,
You deserted the land down under for good then, Mike?
<div class="bbp-reply-author">Drac
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Well here’s one example of emails we occasionally receive.
“You’re a * * mate.”
That's appalling.
Abuse should be hurled openly, for everyone to see. 🙂
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You deserted the land down under for good then, Mike?
Just having a play.
'Well here’s one example of emails we occasionally receive.
“You’re a * * mate.”
So I hope you can see what Mark is getting at.'
Yes, that is without doubt out of order and uncalled for....
'If I’m thinking of the same incident, that particular gem was from a (now former) classifieds-only user who took umbrage at us for having the audacity to remove one of his adverts (which IIRC was a URL to an advert on another website and not much else). He got a month’s ban for his initial outburst and a life ban for his subsequent response to that suspension. Proper charmer.'
....but with a bit of background, also almost completely unrelated to the subject. The fact that you are comparing an expletive ridden outburst from a 'classified-only user' clearly doing something against policy, to the response you are getting here from forum users really does say a lot. Nice.
I think perhaps the point is that whatever we say or do, to some people's eyes it'll be wrong.
As perfectly demonstrated.
Well here’s one example of emails we occasionally receive.
“You’re a * * mate.”
So I hope you can see what Mark is getting at.
I don't, actually. The email was quite obviously from a total nobber, but every site attracts its share of frothing loons, without that being an indicator of the views of site users in general. I suspect that far more users are simply of the view that the changes have been badly managed and the attitude of the owners leaves something to be desired.
Oh yeah it is bit of the extereme case but it’s not unusual to receive those for a variety of things, there are posts on here where people have had a proper rant about the current state of the forum. They have had a go at Mark but it’s Ok they put a smiley at the end.
Saying the state of the forum is currently shit is fine, I said that myself more than once but there has been updates, not always quick I know, and Mark has posted when he can. The thing it’s often the case when these are done the minority who love to shout shout louder and complain about the reponse. There is times when no matter what you can’t win.
I think that's a bit of a cop-out. It's very easy to point out the extremists but much less easy to justify why there is a growing body of people saying the same thing.
so vote with your feet, or at least with your p'ness, if you feel so strongly. We have the ultimate say in that in the end the site / forum will rise or fall based on the users. Abusing the owners/staff whether directly like the above or in niggly little digs - at the end of the day they opted for a certain course, have now explained why they opted for it, I don't really see what else more there is to say other than constructive stuff in debugging it as it goes on.
so vote with your feet, or at least with your p’ness, if you feel so strongly.
I've already said that I won't be renewing my subscription.
We have the ultimate say in that in the end the site / forum will rise or fall based on the users
That was my point: when you have a growing body of people saying the same thing, and you rely on those people for income, then it's prudent to listen, and show you're listening.
..... but their choice whether to or not. And I'd argue that a/ they have to an extent, and b/ if they decide not to, or not to the extent that others like, continuing to prod and poke (or worse) is pointless.
….. but their choice whether to or not. And I’d argue that a/ they have to an extent, and b/ if they decide not to, or not to the extent that others like, continuing to prod and poke (or worse) is pointless.
It seems pretty clear that the steps taken by Mark are in response to user feedback, so there's no reason to suppose that more can't be pushed for. Maybe you're happy with the few crumbs that have been thrown, that doesn't mean that everyone else should shut up. Have you considered that people are commenting because they want a vibrant resource to continue and thrive, and believe that the current course is the wrong one? Your "like it or lump it" attitude seems odd, to say the least.
Where did I say like it or lump it?
I said that IMHO we've done enough shitflinging, and moaning about whether it should have been done this way or whether Mark should be on hourly in sackcloth and ashes apologising, we should now focus on positive debugging.
I said that IMHO we’ve done enough shitflinging, and moaning about whether it should have been done this way or whether Mark should be on hourly in sackcloth and ashes apologising, we should now focus on positive debugging.
Giving feedback on how we want the forum to be and to be developed is not "shitflinging" or "moaning", and I find your pejorative descriptors, coupled with argumentum ad absurdum regarding what we would like from Mark to be ironic really, because you're doing exactly the same thing: attributing an extremist position to others to make it easier to justify your own.
Well, actually reading Mark's post about what's going on it's clear that there's a number of systems that in the past have been hacked together and they are now trying to sort them out. The forums are one subsidiary part of this.
I don't know the regulations regarding BACS but from Mark's comments about the cost of setting up a temporary server with it on, it sounds like each node is tied to a particular server/system probably to prevent fraud/money laundering. There's the mention of other payment systems as well, they'll have their own rules to follow.
It's a bit like taking your car to the garage and complaining that they didn't polish the bodywork when they spent all their time rebuilding the engine.
Edit: If I come across a bug/fault, I'll raise it. The main problem here is that really you need a proper issue tracking system in which to report bugs. Someone then has to take care of duplicates put in by people who won't take the time to see if it's already been reported.
Link to videos works by just copying and pasting the url into the box. Check.
Clicking on the quotes symbol works. Check.
Emoticons next...
At last. Coming along nicely.
👍🏼
😬
I still don't get any option to choose emoticons - I can add a smiley 🙂 or sad 🙁 because I know the keystrokes but I'm not geeky enough to remember the others.
It seems pretty clear that the steps taken by Mark are in response to user feedback, so there’s no reason to suppose that more can’t be pushed for. Maybe you’re happy with the few crumbs that have been thrown, that doesn’t mean that everyone else should shut up. Have you considered that people are commenting because they want a vibrant resource to continue and thrive, and believe that the current course is the wrong one? Your “like it or lump it” attitude seems odd, to say the least.
Mark's statement is pretty clear I thought. He's acknowledged that the current situation is less than ideal, but they've made a business decision to proceed the way they are taking into account lots of other factors which aren't immediately visible or obvious to everyone else. Communication could have been better, sure, but it looks like that's being addressed now too.
I'd respectfully suggest that what people may or may not believe is by the by as they aren't in full possession of the facts. It's like sitting in a pub with a load of football fans who all know better than the coach. And I don't mean that as an insult, just that as I've said all along there's a lot more going on than what we can see.
By all means continue to feed back your thoughts here. But the "few crumbs" is just the first step as Mark said.
There's been plenty of shitflinging and moaning in the past 45 pages, even in the last page.
Attitude still stinks.
....the upgrade has been shite, if you want to defend it then carry on, from a user perspective it’s shite. Features broken, no help, no explanation. no advice as to how any new featrure/**** worked etc. Finally the owner showed up and still doesn’t manage to apologise to his customers about how shambolic the upgrade was.
The irony is that it isn't the state of the forum that makes me spend less time here now, it's the increasing nobbiness of the people who frequent it.
No has he emoticons but the forum does accept those from devices with them built into the keyboard.
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The irony is that it isn’t the state of the forum that makes me spend less time here now, it’s the increasing nobbiness of the people who frequent it.
Very much this.
The main problem here is that really you need a proper issue tracking system in which to report bugs. Someone then has to take care of duplicates put in by people who won’t take the time to see if it’s already been reported.
We have a shared document with issues on it which we've collated from this post and others. Duplicates don't matter because we can either add any additional information presented or simply ignore them.
>We have a shared document with issues on it
Is one of them WTF is the quoted text size set so ridiculously large?
There’s been plenty of shitflinging and moaning in the past 45 pages, even in the last page.
I wouldn't have expressed it that way, but I don't think it's wrong.
I’d respectfully suggest that what people may or may not believe is by the by as they aren’t in full possession of the facts. It’s like sitting in a pub with a load of football fans who all know better than the coach. And I don’t mean that as an insult, just that as I’ve said all along there’s a lot more going on than what we can see.
I don't recall claiming to have all the facts. I'm just a customer and revenue generator, who sees a highly problematic upgrade, one not replicated anywhere else I've used on the web.
I think perhaps the point is that whatever we say or do, to some people’s eyes it’ll be wrong.
And so long as 'some' means a prejudiced minority, then that isn't really a problem - even if one or two then go effing and jeffing at you. There are enough idiots out there that they will almost always form at least a small minority of every population. This really isn't the issue.
Using a few isolated examples of outright (and totally out of order) personal abuse and then projecting this onto the rest of the folk here is actually quite insulting and also reinforces what seems to be a 'them' and 'us' mentality.
Sure there are a few malcontents in here who want STW to fail - presumably they've had some kind of run-in with Mark or someone else - but forget them.
What there is a majority of is people who use this place because they like it, like the vibe and have settled on it 'organically'. People who generate the ad revenue with clicks etc. They don't want to see it fail, but they don't want to be frustrated by trying to use it either. They (like me) are only here because they like it - if something is done that cocks it up and makes it so they don't like it then they will drift away. They won't send an expletive-filled rant. They'll lament it occasionally, but they are not the types with "STW Forever" tattooed on their limbs either.