As someone else said, if you apply all/most/more of the braking force to the inside wheel it’s far more likely to lock up as it unweights.
From what I remember about the McLaren system, the drivers would drag the brake on the inside wheel through the corner. It was intended to aid with cornering, not to slow the car. The inside brake disks would glow red hot, I think that's how the other teams figured out what was happening.
So, I think in this case, the driver would brake and turn into the corner normally with both wheels receiving equal braking force. Then the driver would lift off the brakes and the inertia valve would block off the pressure to the outside wheel, then the driver would drag the brakes through the corner and the asymmetric braking would help rotate the car.
What if it was in a slightly flexible line or orifice
So if the ball blocked a port, more pressure would be needed for fluid to overcome the resistance. If it was a flexible tube, there could be a larger outer tube to limit loss in braking power as the flexible tube expands during braking.
Ignore me the ball would get stuck
What if it was in a slightly flexible line or orifice
So if the ball blocked a port, more pressure would be needed for fluid to overcome the resistance. If it was a flexible tube, there could be a larger outer tube to limit loss in braking power as the flexible tube expands during braking.
If the port is open at all, the pressure on each side will equalize. If the brake hoses are too flexible, you'll get a mushy pedal feel. I can't imagine that teams would want spongy brakes.
It's interesting that it's all rumour and innuendo so far and no proper journalist is touching it. They must be digging and digging tho. Andrew Benson will be trying harder than anyone, he seems to really hate Horner ?
thols2 - I think what you are saying about pressure equalizing and limited flow makes sense but the drop in performance, number of rumours and the new regs seem to suggest that something was happening. I was basically quoting from the YT videos I have seen and the sources that they quote. Agreed that they are not hard evidence.
Article from Mark Hughes*...
...Red Bull talked of as main user, but also that McLaren and Mercedes could be using a similar system. We'll see how they all fare in twisty Zandvort! 🙂
*subs only but you can register to view.
*subs only but you can register to view.
Or just open in an incognito window in Chrome
If the port is open at all, the pressure on each side will equalize
The system would control a pressure regulating valve, not a flow regulating valve, so the brakes can be biased as needed to aid the steering of the car
The system would control a pressure regulating valve, not a flow regulating valve,
The diagram that Craig Scarborough had was of a flow regulating valve closed by inertia.
That Mark Hughes article references braking the outside wheel more, which makes more sense
[i]That Mark Hughes article references braking the outside wheel more, which makes more sense[/i]
Possibly, but something that moves by interia - the car entering a corner - can be made to act on either side depending on your design I guess.
I understand the outside wheel would be more loaded so could take more braking but wouldn't that pull the car on a wider line rather than tighter, thus increasing understeer?
I am guessing but I would have thought that you wanted the inside wheels braking more than the outside and then use the driver to control the lock up point.
He talks about it being a handbrake turn effect....dunno, don't really understand it.
Good job I'm not an engineer in F1 really.
The original McLaren system braked the inside rear wheel. Drivers apparently had to learn to stay on the throttle slightly to avoid locking the inside wheel. The outside wheel being driven would also tend to turn the car into the corner.
The diagram that Craig Scarborough had was of a flow regulating valve closed by inertia.
It’s just a simplified diagram. A proper hydraulics diagram wouldn’t make sense to most readers
It’s just a simplified diagram.
It's not simplified, it's a diagram of a flow regulating valve turned on or off by lateral acceleration. When the car is cornering hard enough to close the valve, the outside brake is disabled and the driver can feather the brake to help rotate the car. The brakes will work symmetrically under straight line braking, then the driver needs to lift off the pedal as he turns in to release the outside brake, then feather the brakes to use the inside brake to help turn the car.
This all sounds a bit odd.
I don’t follow the Scarbs diagram either: my interpretation is as per hols2’s, ie that it has either no effect on pressure and/or will completely freeze one caliper at some point.
I also don’t follow Mark Hughes’ thoughts. I don’t see how a “handbrake turn effect” is relevant: the handbrake turn works by locking the rear wheels so that they have a lot less retardation than the front wheels. Until the wheels lock, there is no handbrake turn as such, it’s effectively just a bit more rear brake balance. And he talks about how applying more braking to the outer rear wheel induces a turning effect into the corner—that makes no sense either: the opposite is true.
What’s more, the regulations as I read them relate to asymmetric forces at a single caliper. Maybe I read them wrongly. But the regulation relates to “a given brake disc” and “a given axle”. There is no single rear (or front) axle, there is one per wheel. So I don’t get why all these rumours seem to relate to differential forces between the two wheels. I’ve always interpreted it as relating to differential forces across two sides of a single disc.
Edit: looking through the regulations, they use “axle” both to refer to the four physical axles at each wheel and to the two virtual axles front and rear. Quite why they’ve made that term ambiguous is a bit baffling, but I guess it makes a nice loophole to work with if you’re confident you can argue it in court if needed,
Gary Anderson has an article that explains one way an inertia valve could help by causing the inside rear brake to drag through corners. The brakes would all receive full pressure when braking in a straight line, but turning would activate the inertia valve which would prevent the inside rear brake from releasing. The driver would have to keep some pressure on the brake pedal as he turned in, then would release the pedal. As long as the car was turning above a preset g-level, the inside rear brake would keep dragging. The amount of braking could be adjusted by changing the weight and/or spring. Once the car stopped turning, the valve would open and the brake would stop dragging.
Important point is that the changed wording was apparently copied from the new 2026 regs, so there's no evidence that it was done in response to finding that anyone was actually using asymmetric braking, they may be just closing off a loophole before anyone tries it.
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/f1-intriguing-new-brake-rule-tweak-gary-anderson/
The interesting thing about that sort of device is that if it were to stick, it would cause exactly the issue that Verstappen had in Australia. Obviously, it’s not the only thing that could cause it, but Brembo (whose discs and calipers are used by the entire grid IIRC) publicly stated it wasn’t an issue with their components and there was no hint that it was something simple like debris caught under a pad. Red Bull never revealed what the cause was. Besides, when was the last time a single F1 caliper locked on like that? Not sure I’ve ever even seen it. For sure, you’d be jumping to conclusions to think case closed, but a passively-controlled valve failing to disengage seems to be one very plausible explanation.
If I were designing it I would design it to leak slightly so that the pressure equalised slowly. That would give a larger effect on turn in but lessening through the corner and minimising the chances of it locking a brake on.
It would also operate on the rear inside wheel, both allowing the front to track nicely, and to allow throttle balance of the effect.
As you straightened and accelerated the effect would tail off beautifully.
It might however lead to slightly different cornering lines. Anyone noticed anything odd about RB or MV cornering lines? In particular do MV and SP have different cornering styles that might make this work for one and not the other?
If I were designing it I would design it to leak slightly so that the pressure equalised slowly.
Yes, Gary Anderson says they did something similar back at Jordan, where they could tune the brake release for different wheels. Given the engineering resources the teams have, I'm sure they would figure out clever ways to optimize the system beyond being an on-off switch.
it would cause exactly the issue that Verstappen had in Australia.
Or Piastri at Hungary in a long fast corner when all of sudden he decided that he couldn't brake, and allowed Norris to gain 3 seconds on him, and all the farrago that followed. In his radio transmission he said basically, "yeah it's OK, I know what I did wrong" which some folks have translated as Piastri getting the brake setting wrong and not wanting to publicly broadcast that he'd done so.
If it was just a rule change why is there such a song and dance being made about it? Rule clarifications must happen all the time with no one batting an eyelid.
This weekend will be revealing though - it's the sort of system that could work a treat around Zandvoort.
Motorsport.com are saying that an FIA spokesperson told them nobody was using such a system.
Could just be that a team wanted to use it and asked for clarification.
Yes, replicating the McLaren brake steer functionality without checking that it was legal first would be pretty dumb, especially for Red Bull who had an utterly dominant car last year.
Yes, replicating the McLaren brake steer functionality without checking that it was legal first would be pretty dumb, especially for Red Bull who had an utterly dominant car last year.
I dunno… it’s nothing like the McLaren system in its implementation, and if you were confident that it was legal, or at least that it wasn’t unambiguously illegal, then you’d go for it. And while they may have been dominant, stable regs inevitably mean convergence: other teams would have only had to figure out their suspension and some aero details over the winter and a clear advantage could dissolve immediately. Any team worth their salt is going to be chasing loopholes, obviously.
More stories about today re Merc hoping to sign Max for 2026 (they've apparently given up on getting him for 2025).
So, assuming they sign Antonelli for 25, if they do get Max for 26, who do they get rid of?
Would be a kick in the teeth for GR, who was probably expecting to be golden boy for a few years when Lewis leaves
GR to Redbull?
Doohan confirmed for Alpine next season...
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/alpine-promotes-jack-doohan-2025-f1-race-seat/
Another Williams car fit for the scrap heap. Touching the grass in the wet isn't a great idea.
ooof. I imagine they can’t wait for Carlos to arrive
Jesus wept, expected it to be on the outside on corner exit or something. Not cutting a corner. That’s like something I would do
I know it’s easy to be an armchair expert but christ, that’s absolutely amateur hour.
Fun fact: all of us here are closer to Pérez in world championship points than Pérez is to Verstappen…
Saw this on PH. 3m 10s in lip read the Williams mechanic watching Sergeant bin it for the umpteenth time
Just seen the onboard. Turns out he can put it on the grass coming out of the previous turn
Albon qualifies 8th!!
Norris on pole, ahead of Verstappen, Piastri, Woody.
Albon qualifies 8th!!
Looks like he could be disqualified as their new floor doesn't appear to be legal.
Confirmed...
3 place penalty for Lewis too.
Sounds like Williams are phoning round to see who's free to pop in that seat asap!
So, assuming they sign Antonelli for 25, if they do get Max for 26, who do they get rid of?
That’s going to be one of totos easiest decisions. He will get rid of George in a heartbeat. It’s not as if he is covering himself in glory at the moment.
chrismac
Full Member
So, assuming they sign Antonelli for 25, if they do get Max for 26, who do they get rid of?
That’s going to be one of totos easiest decisions. He will get rid of George in a heartbeat. It’s not as if he is covering himself in glory at the moment.
This again lol. He's matching/beating the greatest driver of all time and that's not enough..?
simondbarnes
Full Member
Albon qualifies 8th!!
Looks like he could be disqualified as their new floor doesn’t appear to be legal
Bit weird that , usually the new parts are checked by the FIA on the computer models beforehand and then checked again to make sure the physical part matches the CAD before they're first used on the car. I don't understand how it happened. Maybe an installation issue?
