Isn’t turn-in one of the things Verstappen’s been struggling with in the last couple of races?
It's inherent in the new aero regs. The position of the venturi throat is prescribed so the aero balance of the car is constrained by that. They need to use the front and rear wings to adjust the aero balance, but the front wing has a ground effect and front downforce increases as the wing gets closer to the ground at high speed. So, at high speed the car oversteers and low speed it understeers, which makes them difficult to drive. Merc and McLaren seem to have found a solution (maybe flexi wings?), but Red Bull seem to have some fundamental problems with how the aero and suspension interact.
thols2
Full Member
Adjustable bias across the car has been forbidden since McLaren did it, it was claimed to be a form of four-wheel steering.The critical thing here is that they are talking about differential forces acting on the same brake disk, i.e. one pad exerting more force than the opposing pad. I don’t see what benefit that would have.
This clarification is quite specifically talking about "asymmetric braking torques for a given axle".
I couldn't be bothered to look up the tech regs again, but it could be that the Mclaren 'brake steer' rule wording is something like "equal braking pressure must be applied to each calliper for a given axle". Therefore a system which prevents one pad extending could legally be used. I.e. perhaps you could have equal pressure acting at the calliper, but only a single pad extends, therefore reduced braking force.
Clarifications aren't added for no reason, either a team has this and the FIA don't like it, or a team has an idea and wants to try it, or a team suspects somebody else has it.
Red Bull's unusual retirement with brake failure the other week is now also rather interesting...
I.e. perhaps you could have equal pressure acting at the calliper, but only a single pad extends, therefore reduced braking force.
Yep thats how I'm interpreting it. On the outside wheel if only one pad is acting on the brake disc therefor less brake force you get some sort of 4 wheel steer assistance.
Other thing I could think of is does a reduced or increased force on the brake disc effect the suspension movement? Could a reduced brake force on the outside wheel lead to the suspension compressing less? Or increased force on the inside cause the suspension to compress more? Both acting to keep the underbody of the car flatter meaning the floor works more efficiently?
This isn’t about a braking differential between the two sides of the car, though. (Which AFAIK has been illegal since McLaren’s brake steer system.) This is about a differential between the two pads either side of a single disc.
Re-reading the wording, though, I think my previous thoughts were misplaced in a couple of respects.
Doohan signed to Alpine according to mestmotor.se (not official yet though)
Some Italian magazine (autosprint?) claims Newey has signed for Aston Martin. Also claims Stroll is trying to sign Verstappen.
No logic to it, but there's no team I'd rather see fail than Aston...Lawrence Stroll and his son, and Alonso. Then replace Alonso with Max.....awful combination
Seen those rumours too - I can see Newey at Aston as he has links with them already. It’s a team he could mould too, unlike Ferrari who are well, Ferrari!
Max would surely laugh at them though! He’d wait at least for 2 years after Newey has been there.
Mercedes is the solid option for him from 2026. Red Bill seems toxic and their engine could be great or could be shite.
In more interesting news have you heard the one about Mazepin to Alpine!!! 🙂
Re the braking forces.
I've no idea if someone has already tried it or just a clarification, but in the age of KERS, not all braking forces are from the caliper.
I suspect you could have equal hydraulic pressure on L & R calipers, but the KERS regen biasing the overall braking force to one side.
F1 brains are better than mine, so I'm sure someone has already been trying KERS brake bias.
In more interesting news have you heard the one about Mazepin to Alpine!!! 🙂
I did see that...surely even Alpine aren't that desperate!
The extended rumour is that Flavio is putting a deal together to sell the team(or part of) to Hitech Racing - hence the new boss who has links to the Mazepin family.
It’s the sort of depraved deal Flavio excels at.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/nikita-mazepin-f1-return-alpine-hitech-merge-rumours
And F1 say Andretti would be bad for the sport!!!
Does Newey still like a say in driver selection? That certainly wouldn’t work out at AM with seat-for-life boy there
I’ve no idea if someone has already tried it or just a clarification, but in the age of KERS, not all braking forces are from the caliper.
I suspect you could have equal hydraulic pressure on L & R calipers, but the KERS regen biasing the overall braking force to one side.
I think it could be done through the differential. As I understand it, the cars use clutch packs to tune the diff - under power in a straight line, they want the diff fully locked but it needs to be unlocked to stop the car understeering in slow corners. I'm sure it would be possible to design a diff that allows the KERS braking to be adjusted side to side. Whether it would be legal is another question. It's such an obvious thing that it's guaranteed that every team will have looked at it and already be doing anything that they are legally allowed to do.
Does Newey still like a say in driver selection? That certainly wouldn’t work out at AM with seat-for-life boy there
I think Stroll is underrated by his critics. Yes, he's only in F1 because his dad is rich but he's a decent driver. Having him as a number 2 to a superstar teammate shouldn't be a problem for a designer who's happy having Perez as a teammate to Verstappen.
Gary Anderson has an article on F1 diffs.
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/how-f1-differentials-work
Having him as a number 2 to a superstar teammate shouldn’t be a problem for a designer who’s happy having Perez as a teammate to Verstappen.
Big assumption that he is happy with Perez.
Agreed that Lance is fine for a mid-field team, that's why I only mentioned the apparent seat for life situation
Seems totally in line with F1 being hosted in countries being run as one party state-autocracies that need a bit of a sports wash.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/christian-horner-investigation-appeal-process-red-bull-statement
Red Bull uphold result of investigation into Horner
I'm shocked! shocked, I tell you
Not read it, but did they mention any findings about the Pope's religion or what bears get up to in the woods?
Doesn't matter, cos the way things are going, Horner will be there on his own soon.
…with Checo and Tsunoda as his drivers!!! 🙂
While were on the Red Bull subject Marko has basically said Lawson and Hadjar will have seats in F1 next season.
So who’s going where? I can see Lawson being dropped straight into Red Bull.
I think Danny Ric will be gone.
Tho there's a seat going at Audi...
Yep - I think Danny Ric will be gone too.
His career with a top team was effectively over when he ran scared of Max and left Red Bull the first time.
Bottas seems to be favourite now to stay with Audi. May as well have some continuity as they seem short of that!
A few pundits have been saying that Bottas would be a good number 2 for Red Bull. He's quick, and doesn't rock the boat.
I'd like to see him with a decent drive. Not sure RB would appreciate his videos tho
In case you were wondering where all those cool looking clips were from
Nah I reckon Bottas will end up at Audi....unless they go for Schumacher
There were some photos of him doing rounds earlier, he had a R8 with a little 77 on the side
Just watched a YT commenting on the brake regs. Apparently Red Bull had an inertia valve after the brake by wire circuit that then split the braking force left and right. Think of it as a T in the circuit.
There was a little ball in the T that could move left or right as the car went around corners (inertia operated, not powered) so as you turn left, the ball rolls right partially blocking the right part of the T and pushing more pressure to the left brake. **
This increase the braking on the inside wheel to reduce understeer, similar to the McClaren 3rd pedal back in the day. McClaren reckoned the 3rd pedal was worth up to 1/2 a second a lap.
This was picked up on, and Red Bull stopped using it, about the Chinese GP. Since then, the performance of their car seems to have dropped about 1/2 a second a lap.
**Possibly slightly more technical but this is the basic idea as I understand it
Fair play I was thinking it was suspension compressiing a brake line /valve or aero related.
so as you turn left, the ball rolls right partially blocking the right part of the T and pushing more pressure to the left brake.
For that to work, it would have to completely block the brake line, so you'd have normal pressure on one side and zero on the other. As long as the port was open even the tiniest bit, the pressure on each side would equalize. I'm sure it would be possible to make a system with two proportioning valves controlled by a weight so that would limit the pressure to one side, but that would be a much more complicated system than a simple ball blocking off one circuit and hence it would be much harder to disguise as a normal junction.
Surely that would be clearly against the existing rules, so disqualification, as opposed to clarification of the rules forcing them to remove it?
Surely that would be clearly against the existing rules, so disqualification, as opposed to clarification of the rules forcing them to remove it?
Yes, that's my take on it. None of the reputable publications have mentioned it, it's just an internet rumour as far as I can tell. It's quite possible that one of the teams asked if such a system would be allowed, hence the rule clarification, but the assumption that Red Bull must have been cheating because they fell back into the pack (after the other teams introduced upgrade packages) just seems to be fanboi speculation from the internet.
Lots of talk on Twitter from respected journo's about it...
https://twitter.com/peterdwindsor/status/1824198674336948377?s=12&t=EQoHg-RGok071Fjc15ZHKw
https://twitter.com/scarbstech/status/1824228759567814841?s=12&t=EQoHg-RGok071Fjc15ZHKw
Actually, having mulled it a bit, with 4-pot calipers (or 2-pistons per side), you could use this system on one set of pistons per side so the affected wheel would still get 50% of the braking force, assuming two identical sized pistons. By using different sized pistons in each caliper, you could vary the ratio as you wanted. It would be pretty obvious that you were up to something though because you would have two brake hoses to each caliper instead of one (or a very bulky caliper if it was integrated into the brake caliper) and no F1 team would add any extra weight unless it gave some sort of benefit.
Lots of talk on Twitter from respected journo’s about it…
Speculation on the internet, in other words.
Scarborough's diagram doesn't quite make sense to me. Contrary to what he says, it wouldn't just reduce the pressure on the outside wheel, it would reduce it to zero (a simple valve like that will be either on or off as far as pressure is concerned, it's the pressure that matters here, not the flow volume). However, for the valve to close, the car must be turning before the brakes are applied. If you apply the brakes in a straight line, both brakes will be applied and they will then stay applied even if you turn in with them applied because closing the valve won't release the pressure that is already applied to the pistons on that side. For it to work during turn-in, the driver would have to brake in a straight line then release the brakes and turn, then reapply the brakes while turning. Problem is, if a driver swerved to avoid a collision and then braked, they would only have the inside brakes operative
...it's always going to be speculation as the FIA seem incapable of open discussion anymore.
The carpet at FIA HQ must have a massive mound under it with the amount of dirt swept under it.
The ball would not necessarily need to either be open or fully blocking the junction exit. Imagine that the surface the ball seats against has small grooves so there is just a little space for the fluid to squeeze through.
[i]the assumption that Red Bull must have been cheating because they fell back into the pack (after the other teams introduced upgrade packages) just seems to be fanboi speculation[/i] - It was immediately after China that the Rebull performance dropped significantly. It 'could' be possible that every other teams upgrades yeilded pretty much the same improvement over Red Bull or it could be that Red Bull dropped back.
If you look at the results, especially Checo's before and after China, there is a big difference. The same for Max but it is masked a bit more by his extreme driving talent.
Location - SP - MV
Bahrain - 2nd - 1st
Saudi - 2nd - 1st
Austrailia - 5th - DNF
Japan - 2nd - 1st
China - 3rd - 1st
Miami - 4th - 2nd
Emilia - 8th - 1st
Monaco - DNF - 6th
Canada - DNF - 1st
Spain - 8th - 1st
Austria - 7th - 5th
Britain - 17th - 2nd
Hungary - 7th - 5th
Belgium - 7th - 4th
**EDIT *** After typing all that in, this came up on my YT feed -
Assuming the system applies more braking to the inside wheel if braking while cornering, you’d best only use the lightest of touches on the brakes or you will lock up the unweighted wheel - no?
So I would want a non-linear response to the brake pedal too, to minimise that. And the front brakes to engage before the rear in that pedal travel (which they may do anyway).
Have the Red Bulls been locking inside wheels more than other cars?
I'm struggling to envisage a system where a little ball reliably rolls side to side in an oil based system - especially when the cars barely roll through corners.
(Plus as soon as the brake pedal is pressed the system is much more pressurised)
But I'm obvs not an F1 engineer!
little ball reliably rolls side to side in an oil based system – especially when the cars barely roll through corners
I don't think it would be rolling because the car was leaning over, but because it wants to go straight on while the car is turning.
As someone else said, if you apply all/most/more of the braking force to the inside wheel it's far more likely to lock up as it unweights.
The ball would not necessarily need to either be open or fully blocking the junction exit. Imagine that the surface the ball seats against has small grooves so there is just a little space for the fluid to squeeze through.
If there's any space for fluid to flow, the pressure will equalize on both sides. Brake systems aren't intended to carry large flows, they just transfer pressure, which doesn't require any flow once the pistons have extended and compressed the pads against the rotor. The cross-sectional area of the port that the pressure is transferred through doesn't matter so the port has to be fully closed if you want a pressure differential from side to side. Partially closing it won't give a pressure differential.
