[Closed] F1 2016 (Bound to contain spoilers!)

I doubt Lewis would be in this position if he'd concentrated on f1 alone and gave the showbiz lifestyle a rest.

I doubt Lewis would be in this position if he'd concentrated on f1 alone and gave the showbiz lifestyle a rest.

jambalaya - Member

Hamilton isn't a team player. If you believe F1 is a team sport he should go. However his behavious isn't new amd Mercedes signed him amd renewed his contract so they are as guilty as him.

As far as I know you are not allowed to have team orders in F1 these days, the drivers must "race"

Considering that Rosberg has taken out one or both Mercedes drivers with his behaviour over the last few seasons and had no sanction from Mercedes, I think punishing Hamilton in any way would show how they favour Rosberg. Especially Nikki Lauda who just makes me puke, he's the shit-stirring stick that Mercedes need to get shot of.

As far as I know you are not allowed to have team orders in F1 these days, the drivers must "race"

Team orders are allowed now.

I doubt Lewis would be in this position if he'd concentrated on f1 alone and gave the showbiz lifestyle a rest.

Earlier in the season even Nico commented that he has never seen Lewis as focused as he was this year.

Re the 'for the team' thing - let's see how Red Bull deal with this next year if they have a leading car. Max and Daniel are sure to provide some fireworks!

And how many multiple world champions worked solely for the good of the team? Even "Mr Averages" Prost got himself sacked from Ferrari! 😀

Lewis wasn't focussed for 7 races in a row (although some of those were last season). Nico's definitely had the better mental coach for the season as a whole. If Lewis raced those 7 races like he raced the last 4 or so, he'd have thrashed Nico.

Nico definitely favoured. Not to the extent of nobbling Lewis' car, but he's definitely favoured. German driver in a German team (even if UK based), winning the double has always been the goal since Schuey came back.

I can see Lewis racing in different colours in 2018 (need to double check when his contract is up, and Kimi's), and probably beating Nico in an inferior car.

Would pop a tenner on Max beating Rosberg next year, but will wait until the winter testing for that.

[quote=atlaz ]I think Rosberg winning wasn't the worst thing for F1.

Can't really argue with that - it's made it more interesting than it would have been if LH's reliability had been just as good and he'd romped away with it.

But:

[quote=forzafkawi ]Considering that Rosberg has taken out one or both Mercedes drivers with his behaviour over the last few seasons and had no sanction from Mercedes, I think punishing Hamilton in any way would show how they favour Rosberg. Especially Nikki Lauda who just makes me puke, he's the shit-stirring stick that Mercedes need to get shot of.

this - I think you'll find that every instance of a coming together between the two Mercs was largely Britney's fault - let's include for example the incident in Spain, where if Britney had obeyed the rules about holding your line on a straight LH would be WDC. LH has also proved his ability to stay in front in a slower car time and again, so I doubt he was in any danger at all of failing to win.

I can see Lewis racing in different colours in 2018 (need to double check when his contract is up, and Kimi's), and probably beating Nico in an inferior car.

'Please team ask Lewis to move over and let me thtough' (said one man to his title contender in the decider).

Cringe worthy stuff.

I can see Lewis racing in different colours in 2018 (need to double check when his contract is up, and Kimi's)

[quote=andytherocketeer ]I can see Lewis racing in different colours in 2018 (need to double check when his contract is up, and Kimi's), and probably beating Nico in an inferior car.

Are you thinking he would go to Ferrari then?

No doubt most drivers would love to go there for the prestige, but can't imagine they'd ever have two #1 drivers...

Vettel and Hamilton as teammates would be interesting, although I can't see either of them wanting that to happen. My money would be on Vettel over the course of a season.

I see what I consider to be gaping character flaws from Hamilton on a far too regular basis - and am frankly amazed that people are so willing to overlook them on what I assume is the strength of him being a Brit whom happens to be good at something.
For me its personality/character over Nationality every time.

Given equal machinery what do you think the F1 championship standing would look like?

(In other words rank the drivers on the grid)

Its a difficult one.

In my opinion there are 5 drivers on the grid with stand out talent:

Alonso
Vettel
Hamilton
Ricciardo
Verstappen

Talented Journeymen who can win races in the right circumstances

Rosberg
Button
Bottas
Massa
Hulkenberg
Perez
Grosjean

New Talent who probably deserve a better drive
Sainz
Ocon
Wehrlien
Palmer
Magnussen
Nasr

Making up the numbers:
Ericsson
Guitierrez
Kyvyat
what his face in the second Manor

So no idea who would win in equal machinery. Its a silly game anyway as F1 is NOT about the cars being equal!

Senna had character flaws, Schumacher did, Vettel has, Kimi has - can't think of a driver who hasn't. And Mr Kvyat has them by the bucketload!

I think most people ignore them in Lewis as he's unquestionably one of the best racers out there.

Personality/Character doesn't win races.

I'm not a huge fan of his social life, but I admire his racing in the same way I admired Mansells - he just won't give up.

We are missing a huge point here.F1 is just so dull at the moment, we need more racers like Max. Considering he drove from the back of the grid to 4th shows amazing talent in a so-so car.
Let's hope RBR can give home something competitive next year.

amazing talent in a so-so car.

I like Max. I think he is a brilliant young talent. The Red Bull is not a so so car though , its the 2nd best car on the grid

You forgot Kimi in that list above. In the "Talented Journeymen who can win races in the right circumstances" section of course.
Kimi and Alonso will be gone by the end of next season, probably leaving only 3 current/former world champions on the grid... one a piece for the top 3 teams? or 2 in one team?

I can't see Lewis in a Merc in 2018, unless he totally dominates Rosberg, with Vettel or a redbull between them in the driver's title so the reigning world champion is the unofficial #2 driver. So only choices are (1) in scarlet, (2) deposing ricciardo to be #1 with Max, or (3) do an Alonso and go back to McLaren never to win again. Or take up that music career.

Anyway - next season is looking good!...

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http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2016/11/29/2017-abu-dhabi-tyre-test-in-pictures/

LH Antics in race - its a race not a time trial, backing up strategy perfectly in rules, if he hadn't done that questions should be asked.

NR - not a worthy champion - rubbish of course he is, he got the points, mechanicals are part of it.

Although - not going to park ferme, extra lap, and other infringements
If Merc insist on applying 'rules' to Lewis following this, maybe he should insist on FIA applying 'rules' to NR. minimum 10 second penalty, LH champion.

You forgot Kimi in that list above. In the "Talented Journeymen who can win races in the right circumstances" section of course.

I did! 🙂

Kimi is an interesting one. Ridiculously talented, when he was properly focussed he was an extraordinary racer. 2005 when he drove for Mclaren he would have easily won the world title given a more reliable car. At Suzuka he drove like he was on fire!

He did get a world title of course in 2007 but he wasn't on the same form and probably never was again for rest of his career

I'm sure it's been said before but: LH back to McLaren for 2018, just in time for Honda to have sorted the power unit and the whole package to be competitive again. To match the return to form, the livery gets updated to red and white with more than an obvious nod to the old Marlboro design (Honda's brand colours are red and white aren't they? shouldn't be too hard to achieve without actually having Marlboro as the sponsor).
That would be Lewis's "Senna's my hero" wet dream wouldn't it? Especially if he got to fight it out for the title with a resurgent Ferrari, Williams or (now named) Renault.....taking it a bit far?

Why on earth would LH want to swap teams? Ferrari are a mess and unlikely to challenge Mercedes for the next few years. Red Bull don't need him and probably wouldn't pay the salary he expects, and he would have a teammate who would be very fast and not intimidated by him. McHonda would be a risk. They should improve next year, but probably fighting with Ferrari for 3rd best team. If they look likely to be competitive in 2018, Alonso will probably want to stay. Any driver on the grid would swap what they have now for a Mercedes seat, so it makes no sense for Hamilton to want to leave.

Lewis doesn't need a bollocking, his radio calls showed someone despondent and desperate. He needs a cuddle from Merc not a telling off.

I think it'll be left as it is. Punishment now will only help the other teams.

Anyway, Lulu has turned up for testing, so maybe all is forgiven?

Considering he (Max V) drove from the back of the grid to 4th shows amazing talent in a so-so car.

It also shows a terrific lack of judgement to bin it in the first place. And then blame the other guy, as usual.

Spoilt teenager who thinks he's playing GT5

Max will either kill himself, or be the new Massa. Reckless for a couple of seasons, then grow up after 2 seasons in a big car.

Agree it makes no sense for Lewis to leave, but I can see relations being too strained at Merc by mid season. Especially if the reigning world champion is #1 driver by Silverstone, and the 3x world champion is #2 driver. Sure Toto says they are allowed to race, but the team comes first, even when the team has already won the constructors, and guaranteed both #1 and #2 in the drivers championship? and there's discussions about penalising for ignoring instructions?

Lewis' only hope is that he is in the lead, and Vettel, Max or Ricciardo are a proper threat, and Rosberg a clear 4th and they need to use the reigning world champion to protect the 3x world champion in the constructor's fight. Else Nico is the German team's German baby.

Toto says they are allowed to race

I think the problem was that Hamilton wasn't racing, he was driving slowly to try to cause problems for Rosberg. That put the Merc victory in jeopardy. Bit of a storm in a teacup, I think Merc and Hamilton both want to just move on and start thinking about next year. Hamilton comes across as a bit childish sometimes, but I don't think he's silly enough to leave Mercedes over a minor spat like this.

That put the Merc victory in jeopardy

I don't think this was ever the case. LH would have bolted when SV was busy keeping NR's mirrors full.

What I don't understand about Hamilton's backing up strategy is why he didn't do it earlier? By the end Rosberg could have given the place to Vettel and let him attack Hamilton straight away, there was no need for Rosberg to defend 2nd place.

I don't think this was ever the case.

Mercedes think otherwise. They pay Hamilton's salary.

What I don't understand about Hamilton's backing up strategy is why he didn't do it earlier?

The team where already wise to that - and they would have pitted Rosberg first giving him the undercut. After the pitstops there was nothing they could do.

That Mercedes say that they didn't think Lewis would employ this tactic is a load of cobblers. F1 teams today model [b]every[/b] scenario!

LH would have bolted when SV was busy keeping NR's mirrors full.

he was bolting [i]every[/i] lap, closing the gaps significantly in the areas you can't really overtake, and almost instantly opening the gap to over a second in the areas susceptible to overtaking and DRS. It was very impressive driving, he had a huge potential speed advantage over Rosberg and if he needed to use it to fend off Vettel he could have switched it on instantly as required, I'm sure.

HOWEVER, it was all too late as no other thrid party driver in their right mind would try to get involved in the title tussle that late in the race. The backing up needed to happen much much earlier in the race, and it could have worked, but was very risky at the time and really needed Verstappen not to have spun at the start.

I think the problem was that Hamilton wasn't racing, he was driving slowly to try to cause problems

that [i]is[/i] racing IMO. It's used in MTB racing and cross racing as a tactic if say you're slower on the tech sections but faster in the non tech sections as a means of not getting dropped/pulling away as needed. You use the tools available to you at that moment in time. It's used in F1 [i]all[/i] the time - most races in one way or the other - you just don't see it much as it's happening off camera. For Lewis, he had no other option... Either driver could have walked away with the championship in that race, it was all Lewis had control over - everything else relied on other people. Any driver would have done it, as most have really alluded to but not expressly said. The only folk complaining about it were Merc management and Rosberg. At that part of the race, it seemed Merc had decided they wanted Rosberg to win the WDC.

They pay Hamilton's salary.

Have you seen LH's salary? I think Toto and co. work for him.

Anyway, 2017 rule changes mean things could be all over the place. Williams could be the new Brawn, and Merc could be midfield runners. He'll scamper off then.

Time will tell.

At that part of the race, it seemed Merc had decided they wanted Rosberg to win the WDC

No, their view was that they wanted a Merc to win the race. Hamilton was risking that. They didn't care which driver wins the championship, their focus was on a Merc winning the race. Hamilton knew that at the start, that's why he waited until after the pitstop to start sandbagging.

Hamilton was risking that.

Did you watch the race!?

He had it completely under control.

their focus was on a Merc winning the race

That's what they told LH yes. BUT....

They had P1 and P2 in the race at the stages they asked LH to speed up. vettel in P3 was fast, certainly against Verstappen on tired tyres but getting slower every lap to the point it was obvious he wasn't trying seriously to pass NR. he wasn't even trying most laps. He would have to get involved in the title fight. They had the raw data that showed LH was massively faster in certain, specific and planned areas of the track.

They weren't worried about the race win.

It doesn't matter whether LH thought sandbagging was legitimate or indeed if it was perfectly legal. We all get given instructions from time to time by our boss which we think are wrong. He was given a clear instruction and he ignored it, publically. Unmanageable employees are no good, Merc have the best car and pretty anyone decent could replace LH and they'd still be winning.

I'm quite enjoying the LH for 2018 speculation, but none of it makes any sense. Here's why:

Red Bull - Unless Max Verstappen ups sticks to Ferrari, he'll be there for some time. Lewis (at thirty three) will be ill advised to go toe to toe. MV is probably the most outstanding new driver out there, he's not yet twenty.

McLaren - Under new management, with entrenched corporate cultural problems that have stymied attempts to climb back up the grid, let alone challenge for championships. McLaren should have been strong at chassis circuits this year, but have been lacklustre. Likewise, McLaren and Honda seem to have problems with communicating effectively. Fixing this will take more than one season, I wouldn't be surprised if Honda threw in the towel before 2019.

Ferrari - See above, but without the Honda issues. Perennial underachievers until the internal politics are resolved.

I dont understand why if Vettels comments are true they are not disciplining their driver for driving at the maximum. Saying you wont overtake the car in front because you cant overtake the one in front of that is a bit daft to put it politely.

Toto works for Lewis.

Yes Merc could hire someone else.

He's not a washed up star, he's top PR, upfront, top of his game and the rest of the field is either untested, average of fading talent.

Max isn't ready nor will I think he will be. I remember Coulthard showing erratic promise. He never matured.

Controversial but although Max has great talent, part of the back is he currently has nothing to save and no pressure. Let's wait and see when he has pressure to build points in a couple of years. Talent can crack. There was almost a point where Lewis had great misfiring talent. Remember all those comings together with Massa etc?

[quote=cp ]LH would have bolted when SV was busy keeping NR's mirrors full.
he was bolting every lap, closing the gaps significantly in the areas you can't really overtake, and almost instantly opening the gap to over a second in the areas susceptible to overtaking and DRS. It was very impressive driving, he had a huge potential speed advantage over Rosberg and if he needed to use it to fend off Vettel he could have switched it on instantly as required, I'm sure.

I'm not sure why so many people are missing this - I'm sure Merc management weren't under any illusions that LH didn't have lots of extra pace if he'd needed it, which does put a slightly different perspective on the radio messages they were giving him (and the response from LH suggests that he knew that they knew).

The only folk complaining about it were Merc management and Rosberg. At that part of the race, it seemed Merc had decided they wanted Rosberg to win the WDC.

To be fair to NR, he only made a silly suggestion once, and didn't complain at all after the race.

I don't see what all the fuss is about Hamilton backing up Rosberg, any driver in his position would have done the same and if they said otherwise they'd be lying ( like Nikki Lauda when Coulthard asked him the question after the race!)

Going back twenty years or so the championship would have been decided by Rosberg taking Hamilton out at the first corner in that race so a bit of sandbagging is tame in comparison 😉

BITD winning a race at the slowest possible speed was beneficial as it put less stress on the cars an tyres so you ran less risk of breaking down! He was just making sure he didn't break it before it became a museum piece 😀

Nicos suggestion could of been a clever tongue in cheek bit of psychological play especially if Merc had relayed it to Hamilton. Hamilton bites and scampers off nico can relax Hamilton looses concentration makes a mistake nico gets past. Risk would be crashing out but Lewis still finishing. I say well played and entertainment aplenty from both sides of the garage.

like Nikki Lauda when Coulthard asked him the question after the race!

I have liked Kimi's comments that he doesn't understand people saying Nico isn't a deserving champion saying words to the effect of "If you score more points, you deserve the title". Sounds fair.

Whatever the arguments for or against either driver ......

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So much better TV and racing.