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dazh
...Charles Kennedy was alright...
Not latterly. He appeared to have decent principles, but yet voted with the Tories on too many occasions for my liking.
Maybe they had something on him.
Shock horror, we all know what jonsons game plan is.
I’m not sure what Johnson’s game plan is. I’m still pretty sure he has no plan for Brexit though. So it’s still the Withdrawal Agreement, No Deal, No Brexit, or another extension. That the governments of other countries are sick of Johnson’s claims that he has a new plan but can’t show it to them (or us) is no surprise. If he can’t write it down, he should shut up.
Cameron stirring it up on Radio4… pointing out that he wasn’t the right person to make the case for Remain during the referendum campaign in northern Labour heartlands, the Labour leader was, but he didn’t do the work.
From where I am standing Johnson's game plan is unchanged, possibly since primary school - tousle his hair a bit and wing it.
Cougar
This may or may not be true, I have no idea. But then, why not argue “I hate the LDs because they got a finely balanced decision wrong” rather than “I hate the LDs because tuition fees”?
Del
Cougar, TBF to TJ, he has been banging on about this for what seems like a lifetime. Surprised you’ve missed it.
TJ
Cougar – I have never said I hate them because of tuition fees – its a minor issue. I hate them for the lies, betrayal and 10 000 dead as a result of their support for the tories
As I think I said pages ago half* the issue with Brexit is a misunderstanding of how (or not) our Parliamentry Democracy works (or doesn't).
(*It might not be exactly half)
The extension to this is seemingly to demonise other parties and include all individuals within that party or not as convenient thus basically going to mud-slinging.
Social media and online forii simply add to this... lets sling some mud back at Labour ???
Without trying to do that (and counter 1000's of deaths with 100,000's of deaths for "labours war" ... the simple answer is that the money was already gone. Labour at the time of the election didn't even seem to really want to be trying to win... (obviously some did but leadership wise less so - as a previous labour voter at the previous election that was my impression). The stark reality was summed up by Liam Byrne "I'm afraid there's no money, Best regards and good luck"
It is disingenuous at best to pretend this didn't happen or fueled/led to austerity.
Labour support another Scottish Indyref where as the LD’s don’t.
Labour have an agreed position on that now? Who’d trust them either way…
Now, back to EU membership and what to replace it with (or not)… please.
I just hate them. Charles Kennedy was alright, but that was a long time ago. He can bet he wouldn’t be standing down liberal candidates to support ex-tory cabinet ministers or rolling out the red carpet for them
Daz, this may sound hilariously insincere because of all the shit I spout on here but the only people you should hate are fascists. Most Tories and Liberal Democrat mps are decent people, they’re just either misguided or cognitively biased in a different way than you or I are.
Don’t waste your energy.
It is absolutely correct to state that austerity was a political decision and did no good whatsoever - reduced growth = reduced tax receipts. there was no need for it and it did no good. Serious damage for no financial gain. It was an excuse to reduce public spending for ideological reasons.
We are and remain a low tax country.
So, the EU…
On Scottish independence and membership of the EU, wouldn't they have to agree border arrangements with Westminster at independence (likely to be an agreement for no border and common trading rules).
Then as application for EU membership, convince the EU27 of how they would enforce a land border with a third country?
I don't see that going well.
Then as application for EU membership, convince the EU27 of how they would enforce a land border with a third country?
Ireland has the backstop.
We'll have the jockstrap*
* That'll keep all the bollocks under control.
…how they would enforce a land border with a third country?
Now… imagine Ireland exists.
CON: 32% (-)
LDEM: 23% (+4)
LAB: 21% (-2)
BREX: 14% (-)
GRN: 4% (-3)
But will Labour support a LibDem government with S&C or enter into a formal coalition? [joke]
Gotta go ride… have fun…
Kelvin
Yes
grumpygit wrote:
On Scottish independence and membership of the EU, wouldn’t they have to agree border arrangements with Westminster at independence (likely to be an agreement for no border and common trading rules).
Then as application for EU membership, convince the EU27 of how they would enforce a land border with a third country?
I don’t see that going well.
Let us not forget the similar situation (minus the troubles) where farms, houses, roads, buildings et al which straddle the border between the borders and Northumberland/Cumbria, do they become Scottish or English and do the Owners get any say in it 🙂
Daz, this may sound hilariously insincere because of all the shit I spout on here but the only people you should hate are fascists. Most Tories and Liberal Democrat mps are decent people, they’re just either misguided or cognitively biased in a different way than you or I are.
Don’t waste your energy.
I don't even think you need to say most, many would do...and it's not so much a waste of energy that destructive use of energy.
There are problems and there are Problems... and Brexit is at least to me the Capital P.
The entire thing is a one way street based on splitting traditional party lines and voters.
With my own cognitive bias it really looks like the turkeys are voting for XMAS.
I don't know if I can be convinced otherwise but frankly raving about $EVIL$ parties is most definitely not going to convince me otherwise.
He can bet he wouldn’t be standing down liberal candidates to support ex-tory cabinet ministers or rolling out the red carpet for them.
Unlike Labour who made a non aggression pact with the tories in scotland you mean?
Looking forward to following todays activites in court. Still impossible to predict but the best lines and arguments seem to be coming from the non government side.
“the mother of parliaments” was closed down by “the father of lies”,
Barclay:
A rigid approach now at this point is no way to progress a deal and the responsibility sits with both sides to find a solution.
We are committed to carving out a landing zone and we stand ready to share relevant texts. But it must be in the spirit of negotiation with flexibility and with a negotiating partner that itself is willing to compromise.
Errmmm newspeak anyone?
The EU have compromised a lot and are still will and awaiting some proposals that might actually work.
John Majors submission:
The current factual picture, on the material which is available and with regard to the absence of evidence which ought to be available but has not been provided, is deeply concerning. The court is under no obligation to approach this case on the artificially naïve basis that the handful of disclosed documents, the contents of which nobody has been prepared to verify with a statement of truth, should nevertheless be assumed to be entirely accurate and complete when even members of the cabinet do not appear to believe them ... It would also be wrong to proceed on that basis, because it would mean that the real issue that has arisen on the facts would not be resolved.
For a tory PM to be facing a devastating critique from a previous tory PM in court is quite astonishing
grupygot
On Scottish independence and membership of the EU, wouldn’t they have to agree border arrangements with Westminster at independence (likely to be an agreement for no border and common trading rules).
Then as application for EU membership, convince the EU27 of how they would enforce a land border with a third country?
You forget Donald Trump is ½ Scottish, so no doubt he'll lend us his wall idea.
And England will pay for it...
(Well they did last time 🙂 )
And England will pay for it…
We'd be glad to.
Epicyclo, if you want to answer this in the proper thread rather than us continuing to crap on this one feel free, but how do you square that circle? I've asked a couple of times now and nobody seems to have an answer for our border.
Didn't Europe (well Rome) pay for the wall?
how they would enforce a land border with a third country?
How many roads actually cross the border?
People are not going to be smuggling vast amounts of goods across the empty wastes of the Cheviots on some cheeky footpaths. It's impractical, and could be caught pretty easily.
squirrelking trouble is any answer to the scotland / england border depends on 2 things. What is the position of the rUK in regards to the EU and what attitude will the rUK take
But yes - basically it will be the same issue as the ireland border but easier to manage
How many roads actually cross the border?
People are not going to be smuggling vast amounts of goods across the empty wastes of the Cheviots on some cheeky footpaths. It’s impractical, and could be caught pretty easily.
Approximately 275 roads cross the border.
Interestingly about 11 roads have the border running down the middle of the road... Want to overtake a tractor? Better have your passport handy lol!
TJ, former judge of the supreme court appeared on newsnight the other night ( Monday? He looked for all the world like a certain Paul Whitehouse character... ) Suggested it would likely go the government's way I'm afraid, but he did make the point that of course he hadn't reviewed the specific evidence. I hope he was wrong. Quite a good piece though. Might be with looking out if you're interested.
Aye - the pundits all seem to be saying its impossible to second guess the judges. a leak from no10 thos after yesterdays evidence was "we are done for"
I wouldn't bet either way. Today seems to be going more the government way
oldandpastit
Just for fun I counted up the roads crossing the scottish border - around 20 half of which are very minor roads
24 I counted. Slow day at work.
Watching the Supreme Court proceedings on telly. Let's have a book on when the lad with the green lanyard is going to fall asleep. He's employing every stay awake tactic there is.
Reading the summing arguments on both sides and given obvious bias to me the government side arguments seem the weaker
How many roads actually cross the border?
People are not going to be smuggling vast amounts of goods across the empty wastes of the Cheviots on some cheeky footpaths. It’s impractical, and could be caught pretty easily.
A hard border doesn't NEED to mean customs etc. on every road. TBH lots of borders exist where you can just drive across if you have nothing to declare (plenty Canada/ US or Sweden and Norway for example) but if you do then you have to take specific roads. A similar type of thing could be used between England and Scotland. (A point to note being that Norway is part of Shengen but a bigger point probably being that they are open to the EU not combative)
This is a problem with NI/RoI because of
a) the specific terms of the GFA...
b) Boris promised to take control of our borders and has been combative since ... well before he was a politician
Its a huge problem for Boris if you believe this:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41412561
"Whether it is number plate recognition or a driver's smartphone app telling customs everything in a lorry has been cleared, the technology needed to make a border work smoothly is not exactly rocket science. The real challenge is bringing together politicians, customs officials and businesses from different countries to allow it to launch successfully."
c) the terms of the WA expressly forbid a border in Ireland.
d) anyone attempting to construct such a thing is likely to get shot at.
e) there's roads which criss-cross in between NI and ROI, you'd need a border every ten yards in some places.
This isn't the road I'm thinking of, but it's the same idea:
Any differences in tariff between the EU and UK means there's the potential for smuggling across the NI border - it was rife before the GFA and helped finance the various paramilitary organisations. However, having a different / exceptional tariff regime between NI/Eire fails WTO requirements - you cannot give preference to anyone, you have to offer it to everyone - bit of a catch 22 when staying within the CU would make life so much easier...
Price worth paying.
https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/business/brexit-blamed-nottinghamshires-second-biggest-3331357
Fake News, Project Fear.
Cougar
c) the terms of the WA expressly forbid a border in Ireland.
d) anyone attempting to construct such a thing is likely to get shot at.
e) there’s roads which criss-cross in between NI and ROI, you’d need a border every ten yards in some places.
These are all point A....
dovebiker
However, having a different / exceptional tariff regime between NI/Eire fails WTO requirements – you cannot give preference to anyone, you have to offer it to everyone – bit of a catch 22 when staying within the CU would make life so much easier…
I'm really commenting on a border between Scotland/England as point A is inescapable between the RoI and NI. There is no reason that Scotland as part of the EU couldn't have a similar border just because it is impossible in NI.
Why is Dovebikers point irrelevant to Scotland? If it won't work in Ireland for various technical and legal reasons then there won't be some magic way to make it work in Scotland.
squirrelking
Why is Dovebikers point irrelevant to Scotland? If it won’t work in Ireland for various technical and legal reasons then there won’t be some magic way to make it work in Scotland.
The legal reasons pertaining to NI/RoI and the GFA don't pertain to Scotland/England
The whole agreement rests on there being no hard border, technological or otherwise...
I'm not saying I think this is what should happen... I'm just pointing out the situation is different.
Technology wise this isn't even hard if you accept some permeability across the border... it's not the end of the world if people cross the border just to go shopping... (half of Switzerland does that) cows and sheep wander in ignorant bliss... people commute daily in and out of Shengen between Denmark and Sweden...
What matters really is if a company in Barlick sell to a shop in Glasgow and that the paperwork is done and duty paid but that
- explicitly
can't happen between the RoI and NI.
Or Scotland/EU can just implement a "hard hard" border like they do with many other countries.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/20/fresh-brexit-talks-row-uk-eu-proposals-secret
So it seems now 'we' are trying a bit of 'divide and conquer'. Well, 'we' have tried virtually every other underhand technique there is, so might as well give this a crack. Although 'we' have tried a bit of this already with Varadkar and the remainder of the EU.
How low can we go? With every turn made (in a desperate attempt to avoid confronting the core issue), 'we' look more mendacious and the EU more statesmanlike.
I really, really would have loved to see the look on Juncker's face when Frost or Barclay or whoever asked the EU to trust a Johnson government to act in good faith. I hope they just smiled and said "with the greatest respect, are you just having us on now? That Beadle bloke isn't about to appear is he?"