[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

The Mash nails it yet again

What is frightening is that it is so accurate - that the future of the country may well be decided by the sheeple voting for a TV personality.

Boris really does talk some BS in the Torygraph article - the scaremongering over EU legislation. About 7% of our laws are based on EU law much lower than many other countries.

The other red herring is "giving up" sovereignty. No shit, we do that the whole time without blinking NATO, GATT, WTO etc. Replace "giving up" with "pooling" and you have a much more sensible debate.

He quotes the Parliamentary Library - perhaps he should read their section on European and UK law.

yep who all had to get Visa's etc. when we don't need spare engineers or health people they won't have a 457 visa. The process works if you have an attractive place to move to and a shortage of skills.
Anyway at least your typing was better than your logic 😉

Edited as per thm request.

In return - can we please have some intellectual honesty in the discussion, and not wrapping up fibs and opinions as facts?

Can we no leave out the nasty stuff - its very boring all this Jamba-baiting.

At the very least focus on points not posters.

Skilled person in France.
Job offer in UK - cost and time and uncertainty in application to work in UK.
Alternative offer in Germany - drive over and start work.
Choice?
I wonder ...

Can we no leave out the nasty stuff - its very boring all this Jamba-baiting.

FWIW we have some way to go till we reach the levels of baiting you have for TJ and still do to A-A - I loled at that request from you. If only you treated all posters as well as your mate eh.

At the very least focus on points not posters.

What can we do his points are made up and exist largely in his head?
What would you advise us to do?

What approach to you suggest we do - I seem to recall you were the picture of restraint when you though AS was just making things up so obviously you are the best person to ask for advice on restraint

OH the irony of that appeal from you of all posters 😀

Personally I am not baiting him just pointing out the obvious made up points in his posts and his never wrong attitude - he deserves his hashtag for he is fast and loose with facts. No one ever tries to defend his view - even you have not tried just moaned at those who point out he is often factually incorrect/just making things up.

I would deal with the cause not the consequences personally.

Thanks Dr!

It would be nice to have a good debate, at least here if not among the politicians

Can you not just ask him to stop posting things that are quite clearly factually incorrect?

and if you are needed urgently you can fo on a "business trip" first while your visa is provessed. The notion that the ability to work abroad including in the EU will dissapear is ridicukous, we will have a woek/visa exchange programme with the EU.

2) who says there will be a work/visa exchange programme between iUK and the EU? This is like in the Scotch referendum where the nats kept on saying stuff like "no, but iScotland will be fine, because we will reach all these agreements with the UK/EU", without ever considering how long that would take, what they would say or what was in it for the EU/UK!

I think DrJs point sums it up nicely much easier for us to recruit from EU countries and vice versa, which really helps in scientific research,
We were supposed to have a new postdoc start in Jan we are now hoping it to be March when she gets her visa sorted from America

Will other banks join HSBC leaving London for Pars/Berlin etc ?

mikewsmith - Member

yep who all had to get Visa's etc

And they all managed it, even in your one, cherry picked example of a country with apparently exceedingly strict immigration laws.

I'm not even sure why so many people here are concerned about the UK remaining in the EU when one of the most popular arguments against is the ease in which we can leave!

And you mock my logic! 😆

xxx
sbob,
spawn of immigrants, who settled here before the EU.
They coped.

Yes, they matched a skills shortage, which is temporary is a lot of fields, not many mine related visas getting renewed right now. The argument isn't just about leaving it's the fact that it makes it harder for people to work across borders, for companies to have sites in the UK and the eu, it will put the UK at a disadvantage along with any nice trade tariffs that come in, can't wait to see how some countries enjoy starting the negotiations from scratch with the UK. But hey it will all be fine...

spawn of immigrants, who settled here before the EU.
They coped.

I thought being outside the EU meant no immigration - have I been misled? 🙂

Capital Economics / Woodford Capital Management have released a pretty detailed and surprisingly balanced assessment of what a Brexit would mean:

https://woodfordfunds.com/economic-impact-brexit-report/

Worth a read because it goes several levels of detail below the "noise" and gets to some of the potential upsides and downsides.

DrJ - Member

I thought being outside the EU meant no immigration - have I been misled?

Yes.

mikewsmith - Member

Yes, they matched a skills shortage, which is temporary is a lot of fields, not many mine related visas getting renewed right now. The argument isn't just about leaving it's the fact that it makes it harder for people to work across borders, for companies to have sites in the UK and the eu, it will put the UK at a disadvantage along with any nice trade tariffs that come in, can't wait to see how some countries enjoy starting the negotiations from scratch with the UK. But hey it will all be fine...

I honestly don't want to sound rude, but what area do you work in?

It's just that you make it sound like working with other countries outside of the EU is so difficult it's almost impossible.

The reality is that we already work and trade with non-EU countries, by the metric **** ton.
Or imperial **** ton if we're discussing the vast amount of trade we do with the states.

Thanks for the link j5m - something to read on the way home! 😉

But don't forget that Capital Economics do have a starting point in all this (not saying good or bad) - you can read Roger Bootle's stuff in the Torygraph.

Boris is very smart, very charasmatic and very popular. Thats why the lefties hate him so much. He's the opposite o Corbyn who many of us where delighted to see eelcted as Labour leader.

DrJ is the Frenchie doesn't want the job we'll take the Chinese then. There will always be a queue just like there is for US work visas. I am in favour of the EU ending freedom of movement so whether I had a French passport would make very little difference to me.

Many Brits buy in Switzerland or USA despite having no right of residence. A good friend of mine lived in Singapore for 10 years and never had the right to remain more than 3 months, not that hard to take a trip to Thailand or Bali for a weekend to reset the clock,

Re: France, Spain, Italy etc continuing to welcome Brits living/owning property it really is a no brainer scenario. DrJ you are quite right about the property taxes (already mich higher than UK used to be, more similar now). Work permits/visas we'll have reciprocal arrangements with various countries as negotiated.

you are François Hollande and I claim my 5 Euros!!

This is the photo the Telegrapgh used on the front page of website, Hollande arriving at the summit

[img] [/img]

The reality is that we already work and trade with non-EU countries, by the metric * ton.
Or imperial * ton if we're discussing the vast amount of trade we do with the states

It's just more efficient to do it with EU countries

My lab collaborates with people all over the world, as someone who has to fill out tedious cuatoms forms for shipping biohazards, I can say its much easier for us to send biological or scientific samples to other EU countries, than non EU.

From my point of view leaving the EU means more red tape and beuraracy

I am in favour of the EU ending freedom of movement

On what basis - its economically beneficial, would hurt many companies and restrict opportunities for our childrens' generation?

Boris is very smart, very charasmatic and very popular. Thats why the lefties hate him so much. He's the opposite o Corbyn who many of us where delighted to see eelcted as Labour leader.

And yet his naked opportunism, may well result in Corbyn in power. A lose-lose scenario. 😉

Boris is very smart, very charasmatic and very popular. Thats why the lefties hate him so much. He's the opposite o Corbyn who many of us where delighted to see eelcted as Labour leader.

Or maybe, just maybe, people hate him because they're bright enough to see through his clearly fraudulent facade, and recognise him for the monumentally self-absorbed, opportunistic, sneaky, scheming and totally untrustworthy bell end that he is? Just a thought

And yet his naked opportunism, may well result in [s]Corbyn[/s] [b]Lady Nugee[/b] in power. A lose-lose scenario

she is clearly being groomed to be in the seat for 2020, note weight loss, tidied up hair, soft spoken to the camera makeover coupled with hiring Damien McBride

Skilled person in France.
Job offer in UK - cost and time and uncertainty in application to work in UK.
Alternative offer in Germany - drive over and start work.
Choice?
I wonder ...

And of course the corollary:
Employer in France
Candidate in UK - cost and time and uncertainty in application to work in France.
Other, marginally less qualified candidate in Germany.
Choice?

It's just that you make it sound like working with other countries outside of the EU is so difficult it's almost impossible

Well he is saying what it is really like in his industry in a foreign land

He is simply saying it is harder than when you have a right. I dont know why we even need to discuss this as its self evidently true.

FWIW no one is actually claiming it wont be harder - except him whose name I should not mention.

Well he is saying what it is really like in his industry in a foreign land

To take an example, a previous employer simply would not consider hiring a person for work in the US unless they already had a Green Card, no matter their qualifications. They would not let themselves in for the effort of making and supporting an application. You could say "that's stupid, they lose out on some good employees", and you may be right, but that's no comfort to the rejected applicant.

[url= http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit01.pdf ]LSE REPORT ON BREXIT[/url]

Junkyard & DrJ exactly my point, my industry is all of them really, working across health, mining, manufacturing and a lot more. I work with plenty of migrant workers but all of them have taken a risk and jumped trough a lot of hoops to be here. All the things you don't have to do in the EU, all the things the UK wants rid of. Bring back the bureaucracy of Visa's for everyone, bet people like Airbus will be happy...

@jambalaya It's only because you seem to know what the policies of France are in the event of an exit...

I expect to be voting to leave so as to change the UK's format of the link we currently have to the EU.

EU parliament is too cumbersome and I don't for one second believe that the EU parliament will vote through those changes, requested by DC, which will require such a vote.

As for workers entering the UK. It seems obvious to me that "[i]business leaders[/i]" continue to demand that workers flow into the UK as a strategy against a shortage of workers, which would in turn force companies [u]to increase wages[/u].
It's supply and demand. Business calls to continue permitting workers to enter the UK as a guard against having to increase wages.
I'd like to see a slight, downward adjustment to supply, so as to see a improvement in demand via wages offered to those working here.

and/or increase prices - you decide!

[i]teamhurtmore - Member
and/or increase prices - you decide![/i]

Assuming that was a response to my post. Increasing prices of goods / services doesn't guarantee that money will find it's way into the pockets of the lowest paid.
More often that money finds it's way to the directors and share holders.

I know it appears to be very cynical of me, but companies do seem to be blind to any concept of a little less profit for share holders should equate to a higher wage for a worker.

Anyway, that's thread drift, so that's it from me, for now.
🙂

I'm fairly poorly informed on this so far but it's fair to say that I am completely torn down the middle. Leaving aside the political 'personalities' and their generally grubby attempts to hijack this for their careers, I genuinely don't know which side I'm on.

Stay:

Play a central part in the European experiment, develop the strongest possible links that protect workers, be part of something that supports us as much as we support it.

Leave:

Change the way we do things. Make a new model that might perhaps be a better way forward. Protect our essential services and be able to negotiate on our own terms with anyone.

I suppose I'm a bit of a Luddite. I'd like to see a return to an economy that provides the majority of our needs from within our own borders. I'd like to see countries and communities build up their own resilience to free market trends and see an improvement in aspirations and opportunities for the young. Which side fits that best? I don't know. Staying perhaps fits some of those but within a larger, more chaotic whole that offsets those benefits with other imposed challenges. Leaving would be a leap into the unknown (and run the risk of promoting some pretty odious politicians), but I wonder if it's time to do something completely new. Will be reading a lot on the subject over the next few months for sure.

I don't bloody know

Solo - perfectly valid and relevant point. But you are correct, it doesn't, that depends on lots of things. However, despite the normal rhetoric, increases in immigration actually increased both the supply and demand for labour and hence tends to benefit wages or at worse has no effect.

[b]We are the EU-SSR Borg. [/b](the EU bureaucrats are similar to Star Trek Borg btw)

[b]Lower your will [/b](shields) [b]and surrender BritLand [/b](your ships).
[b]
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.[/b] (biological = force integration of culture, people, belief etc, technological= standardisation - forget uniqueness, creativeness innovation etc you will think alike)
[b]
Your culture will adapt to service us. [/b](in another words you will be slaved to serve the EU-SSR elite Politburo)

[b]Resistance is futile.[/b] (Got you! Got your children and the lot! Catchy catchy monkey 😈 )

edit: [b]Economy argument[/b] ... ya right ... [b]the tail is trying to wag the dog[/b]. This economy argument is least important.

Sigh

Pigface - Member
Sigh

Boss! Boss! Look!

The Borg! The Borg!

Oh no .. The Drone! The Drone!

😆

Catchy catchy monkey

Which monkey? Who said anything about a monkey? Man, this is confusing.

This monkey?

[img] ?itok=M3ruKbYi[/img]

thestabiliser - Member
Catchy catchy monkey

Which monkey? Who said anything about a monkey? Man, this is confusing.

This monkey

That pic no monkey.
That ape!
You monkey!
You want share banana? 😆

We are the EU-SSR Borg. (the EU bureaucrats are similar to Star Trek Borg btw)

Lower your will (shields) and surrender BritLand (your ships).

We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. (biological = force integration of culture, people, belief etc, technological= standardisation - forget uniqueness, creativeness innovation etc you will think alike)

Your culture will adapt to service us. (in another words you will be slaved to serve the EU-SSR elite Politburo)

Resistance is futile. (Got you! Got your children and the lot! Catchy catchy monkey )

edit: Economy argument ... ya right ... the tail is trying to wag the dog. This economy argument is least important.

You need to get out more!

mrlebowski - Member
You need to get out more!

I vote Out ... see in that case I can go Out more ... 😆

I am in favour of the EU ending freedom of movement so whether I had a French passport would make very little difference to me...A good friend of mine lived in Singapore for 10 years and never had the right to remain more than 3 months, not that hard to take a trip to Thailand or Bali for a weekend to reset the clock,

I'm pretty sure that in the short term we will suffer economically if we leave the EU. However, in the long term I don't think anybody knows. There are positives to both sides of the argument. I'll certainly be taking a long term view when I decide. The EU in 30 yrs will be very different to what it is now.

We're the 5th largest economy in the world. I'm in no doubt that the rest of the EU would also suffer if we left. So far all the talk/reporting on the "stay" side seems to talk of the UK collapsing while the remaining countries prosper.

I personally found the whole renegotiation quite telling. Surely when a member as large as the UK threaten to leave it would be beneficial to the EU to do their upmost to keep us in? To have offered so little seems to suggest how anti change the EU is?

I'm quite suprised reading this thread how certain so many people are regarding which way they will vote. As I said, I can see perfectly legitimate arguments to both sides of the argument. Certainly not an easy decision.

konabunny - Member
Wants to end legal free migration within the EU - is entitled to residency in the EU - encourages illegal migration!

Illegal migration is part of the norm all over the world so what's the big deal?

You catch them you deal with them.

You Cannot catch them then they go about illegally.

This is No issue at all.

The question is do you want the rule of law? (I am referring immigration rules in BritLand)

🙄

dalesjoe - Member

Surely when a member as large as the UK threaten to leave it would be beneficial to the EU to do their upmost to keep us in?

A point I tried to make a couple of pages ago.

chewkw - Member

We are the EU-SSR Borg. (the EU bureaucrats are similar to Star Trek Borg btw)

Lower your will (shields) and surrender BritLand (your ships).

We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. (biological = force integration of culture, people, belief etc, technological= standardisation - forget uniqueness, creativeness innovation etc you will think alike)

Your culture will adapt to service us. (in another words you will be slaved to serve the EU-SSR elite Politburo)

Resistance is futile. (Got you! Got your children and the lot! Catchy catchy monkey )

edit: Economy argument ... ya right ... the tail is trying to wag the dog. This economy argument is least important.

I think we can all agree that leave or stay, we do need tighter immigration controls, for non-EU citizens at the least. 😉