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So Ellen wassername goes through life thinking that she isn't racist, well, not even that, goes through life not [i]being[/i] racist... then she puts up a (what she thinks is amusing) picture that some people (some.. maybe it was just one and the rest *Liked* or *retweeted* it) see as racist. So that means she's now a racist? And she can't say she's not because she's middle-aged white lesbian woman? Jeez, life is complicated in the internet age.
Makecoldplayhistorys contention seemed that to be that to see it as racist was 'handwringing'. I say he cannot make that determination.
If I'd said, "IMO, seeing it as racist is handwringing..." then would that be acceptable? I absolutely do see it as handwringing and ridiculous in the extreme. It's my right to see some ideas, some people and some notions as stupid be they about fashion sense, if something was racist or misogynistic or if jam then cream or vice versa on scone (to rhyme with gone, not cone!).
There's no such thing as a perfectly typical person and therefore no one can speak for anyone other than themselves. Of course phrases like [i]political correctness gone mad[/i], [i]handwringing[/i], [i]perma-offended[/i] etc can be used in an extremely off-hand, patronising and insulting way.
Speaking for myself though, on behalf of me (white, 5th generation English, ex-Spanish-Jewish, moved to Ireland, 32 years old, 70.6kg, ex-pat, male, bluey-gray eyes, mtb before road, straight, 2 children, mixed marriage, Harlequins supporter yada yada blah blah blah) think that those looking to turn this into a matter of race are idiots. I don't need to check my privilege, I need to tell those people to get a grip and concentrate on things that actually matter; not take offence at every perceived slight and look for a problem where none exists.
You don't need ot be part of the in-group to have an opinion. Despite being male, I can see when someone's being a sexist moron and call them on it. The same goes for any form of differentiation - for want of a better word.
I have no problem in you having an opinion and actually in the real world this could be a good discussion over a few beers. Whether your opinion matters is another point.
Also, by 'in group', I think you mean 'outgroup' - that is if you are using the term as most commonly used in academic studies of prejudice.
I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that debating loses that essential 'human' quality and subtlety when it is online
I'd say it's not racist in that the race of the people in the image is not part of the joke - it's race-blind, which is where we would all like to be.
+1k.
*Stealth edit
However it does show some lack of awareness that the world is not yet at that point.
Possibly. But, yeah, but...
[i]Whether your opinion matters is another point.[/i]
Nobody on here's opinion "matters". But it's just a way of expressing them that we enjoy.
It isn't racist, and it is damaging to highlighting the real issue of racism to label it as such. It gives an excuse to those who use terms like "handwringers" and "political correctness gone mad" to justify and hide behind them.
way of expressing them that we enjoy.
I agree - not that my opinion matters...
#blackmemesmatter
[quote=jamj1974 ]You should ask yourself 3 questions before you decide this isn't racist: -
2). Are you American and black?
I find it interesting that nobody in the photo is allowed an opinion on this.
It doesn't matter if Usain Bolt himself does not find it offensive.
Maybe not, but I'd suggest his opinion is probably more valid and important than that of anybody on here.
Surely, as a result it's better then to keep an open mind and be accepting that others with a differing perspective may or may not find it offensive.
The thing is, I'm sure you could find somebody who finds almost anything offensive. The question is not whether you can find such a person, but whether it's reasonable to be offended (or whether a reasonable person would be offended, which is the standard used by courts in this country). If a reasonable person wouldn't be offended, then it doesn't seem all that unfair to describe those who are offended as handwringers.
Because the very suggestion that this meme is racist has the professionally offended stamped all over it.
After making my original point, I've stayed out of the debate until I've been addressed directly.
PJM1974 and IHN et al..As middle aged white men you seem remarkably comfortable evaluating and criticising the the intentions of a female American lesbian.
Erm...so this is reverse prejudice because Ellen DeGeneres happens to be gay? Or are you trying to silence the debate by implied guilt that I shouldn't comment because doing so is trampling on Ellen DeGeneres' rights somehow and that I ought to shut up because it's you know, [i]lesbianist[/i] or something? Or does Ellen DeGeneres' sexuality exempt her from making a faux pas. You know what a faux pas is, right?
You're also kinda ignoring the fact that Mr Bolt (who is both the subject of the joke and a black man) thought it was funny and retweeted it.
It's a bit like saying, "Well, I made a joke that some people might see as inadvertently racist, but a black guy likes it so therefore being the spokesperson for an entire ethnic group he's single handedly rendered the point moot and anyone who complains about it is just a hand-wringer.
[i]It's a bit like saying, "Well, I made a joke that some people might see as inadvertently racist, but a black guy likes it so therefore being the spokesperson for an entire ethnic group he's single handedly rendered the point moot and anyone who complains about it is just a hand-wringer."[/i]
It's nothing like that though is it. The accusation from that pic is that Ellen is racist. She's not. Usain Bolt in the pic isn't offended by it, so who is?
Another black person maybe - so they say "Ellen must be a racist" - she's not.
So where's the problem. Someone will see the pic and go "Ohh ha ha ha Ellen riding a black man!" So then who is racist? And is that what makes the meme possibly racist?
As I said, life is bloody complicated.
I find it interesting that nobody in the photo is allowed an opinion on this.
They are, Usain Bolt can say if he finds it offensive - but that does not prevent others with a similar or dissimilar opinion finding it offensive.
Maybe not, but I'd suggest his opinion is probably more valid and important than that of anybody on here.
Yes, it is with regard to how offensive or not he finds it.
The thing is, I'm sure you could find somebody who finds almost anything offensive.
Yes, I am sure we could.
The question is not whether you can find such a person, but whether it's reasonable to be offended (or whether a reasonable person would be offended, which is the standard used by courts in this country).
No. That's not the question. Not unless there is legal action being progressed in our court system. It has nothing to do with it whatsoever.
If a reasonable person wouldn't be offended, then it doesn't seem all that unfair to describe those who are offended as handwringers.
Really? Let's wind back 20,30, 40 or 50 years and see where the judge of what's reasonable aligns to what should have been offensive. Here we don't really have to be trapped within our own singular experience - as anything which is an obstacle to equality, could be deemed to be an offensive view.
Because the very suggestion that this meme is racist has the professionally offended stamped all over it.
You seem really entrenched in your own experience. What you think is reasonable has no relevance to whether a black American finds this offensive.
"Professionally offended" is a term that has no constructive use or merit. It seems most often used to support a status quo where an ingroup has dominance over an outgroup.
As probably one of the few people who has undertaken a reasonable level of rigorous academic research into this subject, I will leave this discussion here. There isn't any point in trying to make the blind see.
Just for the sake of saying it - Ellen, I am sure would not be intending to be offensive at all on grounds of race or anything else. I don't think she should receive censure. I don't think that a largely white, likely reasonably affluent group of white British people has much worthwhile perspective regarding how a black person could feel on seeing the image.
@pjm1974
My point was that you (seemingly because your race and heritage and culture) appeared to be withholding judgement on one point of view because of your lack of suitable genetic credentials, and simultaneously judging another pov despite your lack of genetic credentials.
Just seems a bit contradictory to me?
also can you explain why an unoffended black persons opinion is just one man's opinion and should not be taken as a general guide on what is racist; but an offended black persons opinion is a reason for.. Well.. all of this?
Is perhaps "racially insensitive" a better description of it?
Although I think that the accusation that the tweet was racist is pretty ridiculous - it was clumsy and unfunny.
And for those of you who are "colour blind"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_blindness_(race)_in_the_United_States
Critics allege that majority groups use practices of color-blindness as a means of avoiding the topic of racism and accusations of racial discrimination,[13] and that color-blindness is used to undermine group legal rights gained exclusively by some minority groups.[14]
In 1997 Leslie G. Carr published Color-Blind Racism which reviewed the history of racist ideologies in America. He saw "color-blindness" as an ideology that undercuts the legal and political foundation of integration and affirmative action. Stephanie M. Wildman, in her book Privilege Revealed: How Invisible Preference Undermines America, writes that many Americans who advocate a merit-based, race-free worldview do not acknowledge the systems of privilege which benefit them. For example, many Americans rely on a social and sometimes even financial inheritance from previous generations. She argues that this inheritance is unlikely to be forthcoming if one's ancestors were slaves, and privileges whiteness[12]
Although I do find the emphasis on racial discourse somewhat amusing, when middle and lower classes are ****ed over by classism the world over. I do sometimes get tired of hearing about it and do sometimes pine for people to spend more time on developing awareness of universalist class issues. Instead, I have to put up with listening to privileged privately educated Filipino friends of my wife from multi-millionaire backgrounds - with whiney faux Atlantic accents - banging on about how hard done to they are in the US.
Meanwhile in the Philippines, the poor in their own country are getting rounded up, being shot and then being thrown into mass graves for small drug offences or simply the fact that they are homeless.
But it's okay, because if you're rich that must mean that you're better than them.
FTFYIt's a bit like saying, "Well, I made a joke that some people might see as inadvertently racist, but [s]a black guy[/s] the person the joke was about likes it so therefore [s]being the spokesperson for an entire ethnic group he's single handedly rendered the point moot and anyone who complains about it is just a hand-wringer.[/s] maybe it isn't actually racist at all.
So, lots of people being offended on someone else's behalf, and incorrectly accusing the originator of the photo as racist.
I find myself unable to conjure up a better answer than:
[img] 
[/img]
@pjm1974
My point was that you (seemingly because your race and heritage and culture) appeared to be withholding judgement on one point of view because of your lack of suitable genetic credentials, and simultaneously judging another pov despite your lack of genetic credentials.Just seems a bit contradictory to me?
Then perhaps you need to reread my post and pay attention to the syntax. I needn't justify my point here, other than to repeat my second paragraph which said "[i]That said, it doesn't take a degree in American history to understand why the tweet might be construed as offensive[/i]".
also can you explain why an unoffended black persons opinion is just one man's opinion and should not be taken as a general guide on what is racist; but an offended black persons opinion is a reason for.. Well.. all of this?
Tell you what, have another go at articulating your point and I'll answer in due course.
Can't help pointing out that Stephen Fry is a middle-aged white guy 😉
He's got a point, but there's also a corollary - don't be offensive unnecessarily. There's also a difference between being offensive and being racist.
and quite privileged, at that 🙂
As probably one of the few people who has undertaken a reasonable level of rigorous academic research into this subject, I will leave this discussion here. There isn't any point in trying to make the blind see.
*swoons* at your intellect, but thats your opinion and it doesn't really matter does it? (joking)
Objectively, why should an opinion of something being racist carry more weight than an opinion that it's not? If all persons being equal - the opinions carry equal weight also then?
Also, I don't see how you can objectively call something as being racist unless you have a non-racist position point to come from in the first place. i.e. you have to have a non-racist opinion to relate to - thus the non-racist opinion matters..
Personally, I don't find the post offensive. At no point does it appear to me that it comes with any malice intent or dig at any person, colour or race.
I think the balance could be redressed if only we could find a picture from 1980 where Lenny Henry is getting a piggy back from Allan Wells.
perchypanther - Member
I think the balance could be redressed if only we could find a picture from 1980 where Lenny Henry is getting a piggy back from Allan Wells.
😀
*swoons* at your intellect
Please no swooning! 😉 No brighter than average - but I do have at least some background in the subject...
its just a shit joke
Can one raise a point regarding offence being caused without being offended themselves?
I hadn't realised that she was a lesbian too. What country is this that allows these people places on prime time TV?
Trump for President! And let's get rid of these offensive troublemakers.
Ellen isn't racist, it isn't personally insulting to Usain Bolt, but it is an image that resonates with historical images of whites being borne by their black slaves in a similar way - so it has a racist connotation. Anouther faux pas as she has past history of this sort of clumsiness with her GAP campaign.
so it has a racist connotation.
Only if you take it out of context - He's the fastest man on earth, hence his picture was used, the fact he's black I don't belive had anything to do with it, if the fastest man was chinese or white, would she have used thier picture instead? yes.
Also, never mind the racism! it's sexist! - Here we have a woman,a lesbien no less, asserting her dominance over a man. For shame! 😆
I'm offended it makes us Lesbian looks lazy
Not racist in my opinion and neither does the old photo next to it have to be unless we know the context. Found a photo the other day of me as an 11 year old child with a dressing gown cord in my mouth and my 7 year old friend riding on my back wearing riding boots and hat. As far as I remember I wasn't being degraded.
What he says (sweary)
[quote=jamj1974 ]
The question is not whether you can find such a person, but whether it's reasonable to be offended (or whether a reasonable person would be offended, which is the standard used by courts in this country).
No. That's not the question. Not unless there is legal action being progressed in our court system. It has nothing to do with it whatsoever.
OK, so let's try the logic on this one (I'm assuming logic isn't the academic research you're appealing to authority on). If as you assert that test is worthless, then if somebody unreasonable finds something offensive then that makes it offensive. Given you appear to agree with me that you can find somebody who finds anything offensive, then by extension everything is offensive.
What exactly is wrong with the reasonable person test?
Let's wind back 20,30, 40 or 50 years and see where the judge of what's reasonable aligns to what should have been offensive.
No, let's not, because that is a strawman. We're interested in the here and now.
You seem really entrenched in your own experience.
Simply capable of recognising that the comparison between that pic and the historic ones is ridiculous.
I'm curious whether any black people are actually being offended by this, or is it simply white middle class people who think they know better?
I'm curious whether any black people are actually being offended by this, or is it simply white middle class people who think they know better?
I'm not white. Neither do I find the image offensive.
e.
Simply capable of recognising that the comparison between that pic and the historic ones is ridiculous.
Perhaps if your daily life is still affected by prejudice and it affects your life chances - as it is for many people in America, you could feel differently?
What exactly is wrong with the reasonable person test?
No, let's not, because that is a strawman. We're interested in the here and now.
They are both 'strawmen' of a type. What is reasonable may depend on your outlook, experience, expectations etc... As a result it's probably not the most reliable.
[quote=jamj1974 ]I'm not white. Neither do I find the image offensive.
There we go, the first piece of evidence that it's only white folk finding it offensive.
[quote=jamj1974 ]Perhaps if your daily life is still affected by prejudice and it affects your life chances - as it is for many people in America, you could feel differently?
Perhaps if that picture actually reinforced the prejudice which affects their life chances. I acknowledge the US is a racist society (I've contributed on that side to another recent thread on here regarding a black Olympian), but that doesn't make the tweet racist. Because we come back to the fundamental point which we've been ignoring whilst arguing about whether it's reasonable to be offended - even if somebody does find it offensive, that doesn't make it racist.
They are both 'strawmen' of a type.
Nothing at all strawmanny about suggesting a reasonable person test - not for any normal definition of "strawman" - or is that definition something which depends on your life experiences?
OK, so let's try the logic on this one (I'm assuming logic isn't the academic research you're appealing to authority on)
I don't claim ability as a philosopher. I did write a reasonable dissertation related to prejudice and who it is experienced and expressed in the relationship between minorities and majorities in populations. I wouldn't say I am an expert, but I was reasonably well read in this area. More than most would care to be, I imagine.
Given you appear to agree with me that you can find somebody who finds anything offensive, then by extension everything is offensive.
Possible, but unlikely. I think you may be reaching slightly. Over-extending the argument to an almost absurd point.
My original point is the same. To be concerned if someone may be offended is not ridiculous. I still personally don't find the image offensive at all. Nor do I think it likely that Ellen intended to offend. I do think asking white males if an image is likely to be offensive to a black person - and expecting the judgement to be inherently correct is borderline hilarious. If you can't see why - that demonstrates how fundamentally trapped you are by your own experience - not superior logic.
An attempt to build a situation where something can be explored can be seen as a strawman. Both examples do that.
Aracer. We are not going to agree. Let's leave it there.
[quote=jamj1974 ]Possible, but unlikely. I think you may be reaching slightly. Over-extending the argument to an almost absurd point.
It's simply the logical conclusion if you refuse to apply a test of reasonableness. If you think that is an absurd point, then presumably at some point you're deciding that it is unreasonable to be offended by something if you consider it to be sufficiently innocuous?
As I said. Let's leave it there.
I find offensive behaviour offensive. So whilst I may not be offended by your racist joke, the fact you made it offends me.
How about that? 🙂
No, why?
Well, I nominate I_Dib_Dab for most sensible forum post of the century....
looks a tiny bit racerist to me maybe?