Echo chamber?

I’d vote Labour because it’s a two-horse race here and they aren’t the Tories. It stinks but there’s little other option. If you think that means I support brexit then you haven’t been paying attention for the last six years.

+1

It is not Labour policy to leave the EU. It is Labour policy to accept that the UK has left the EU.

Also +1. The ship has sailed, and further, for Labour to stand on a ticket for immediate readmission would be daft, if not completely suicidal. I mean, they might still win but with a very small majority in reality and will bugger up all the things they will want and need to do when they inherit the shitshow.

Call me a brexiteer too if you will; we're right now standing in a burning house. I'd rather my housemates hadn't set it on fire but that's now too late. I can stand here and complain about why they did it, and indeed still will, but at the same time I need to be trying to work out what to do to put the fire out and mitigate the damage. That's absolutely not the same as being the arsonist.

Labour are more of a ruling out trying to rejoin the EU rather than a Brexit party. And holding the next election on Brexit would be a recipe for disaster.

Thanks for digging up your own quotes, Ernie, they are fairly balanced rather than leave and at no point did you write the critical word "out" up to the day of the refererendum - I will humbly grovel if you can find me that. Edit - it wasn't me who hit the report button this time though I have done in the past.

My first contribution to the in/out thread was in reply to Jamba:

"We will be much better off out,"

Says someone who is married to/living with French lady, works for a company that has offices in Paris (are you still in Paris Jamby?) and does business all over the world. Cut off your nose to spite your face.

I can find many flaws with the EU, mainly the lack of eurobonds despite a European central bank and an uneven economic playing field. However on a personal level I value the rights and freedoms its given me.

I’m in either way, but can’t vote.
Posted 6 years ago
Reply | Report

I said I was in either way because of my dual nationality. Since you said you did French military service I assumed you are too, Ernie. The family history you've described starting in Latin America then France then you father settling in the UK with French nationality points to that. You wouldn't have been called up for French military service if you weren't a French national and there would be no reason to relinquish it once that duty accomplished. However you've spent nearly all your life in England and would have sought British nationality at some point if you had any sense.

So along with all the other dual nationals it was easy to be fairly relaxed about Brexit on a personal level. Some of my family and friends I knew would be hard hit and they have been. 🙁

Lots more dual nationals on the forum now with passports from Belgium, Ireland, Sweden, Germany, France, the Netherlands... .

Woppit, Cougar, Woppit, oh and Don Simon.

Thank you for showing such keen interest in me and my parentage Ed, but this thread isn't suppose to be about me.

Nevertheless to quickly clear up some points. My father did not have French nationality, he was Argentine with French and Italian parentage. My mother had French nationality - both her parents were French. I was born in France and obviously have French nationality. I still don't have dual nationality, absurd I know considering that after years of not speaking French I would struggle to string a sentence. But being a foreigner in the UK is far easier than you might imagine and applying for British nationality would be very time consuming and costly, with no appreciable advantages. Although I do still intend to eventually get round to doing it, maybe.

at no point did you write the critical word “out” up to the day of the refererendum

Well of course not, why FFS would I declare my position on the day of the referendum? It was very well established that I was strongly opposed to the EU from the onset. Did you write the critical word "in" on the day of the referendum so that everyone would be aware of your position?

And in case you haven't noticed my political position is somewhat on the far-left of UK politics. The stance I take is somewhere in the region of 95-98% in line with Morning Star editorials. The Morning Star has been passionately opposed to the EU since long before the ukip even existed. It fully supported the Labour Party's 1983 election manifesto commitment to leave the EEC.

My quote from 6 years ago which I posted on the previous page should have given you a clue of my position 6 years ago. Here it is again:

I question the sanity of those who claim to be socialist and yet support the EU.

I hope that settles everything although I doubt that it will.

but at the same time I need to be trying to work out what to do to put the fire out and mitigate the damage. That’s absolutely not the same as being the arsonist.

If you refuse to even consider putting out the fire which is what labour policy is then you are not much better.

The ship has sailed,

Nope.  its not.  or why does 2 rejoin parties continue to hold such a big part of scottish politics?  No matter how much you widsh its not a dead issue and its never going to go away.  Labour can wish it away but its not going to happen.  It will be a major issue at the next election like it or not

no. i'm out.

I don't characterise them as "rejoin parties".

They are parties campaigning on a range of issues of which rejoin is one aspect. Plus, it is a workable proposition in Scotland, with a substantial support, nws being able to become independent first.

Labour need to get themselves elected first and then can work on rebuilding what has been lost. Would I like them to be more active, yes, but in this unfair game, play by the devious rules to get what's needed. Not as if parties have then diverged from their stated manifesto aims before......

edit - yep, I'm out too, I too am guilty of dragging it into another Brexit thread. On topic, there are divergent opinions, accept it.

At risk of repeating the In/out thread, The EU as a whole is a whole lot more socialist than the UK and the electoral system a lot more democratic with all factions represented as it's proportional representation. I live in a country described as "socialist land" by American journalists which operates its eductataion system, state controlled businesses, health service, public services, public infrastructure... lots of socialist goodness within the framework of the EU - it might even be your UK energy supplier.

As for far left, I've had little time for communists since reading Animal Farm. 😉 And the Morning Star declares itself to be communist.

The other jonv

MY point is that by showing leadership, countering the brexiteers narrative and making rejoin the main non constitutional policy those parties have increased support.  Labour could have done the same but they refused

Instead Starmer has lied about the EU, supported the brexiteeers narrative and thus legitimised it.

Plus, it is a workable proposition in Scotland, with a substantial support,

Beause the main parties have made and continue to make the case for rejoin.  Starmer could have done the same.  Rejoin is majority view in England as well

I'm quite in awe at all these cool kids getting bans. As far as I remember, I've only ever received one warning - for saying that I found a certain female member of the opposition attractive. No reason was given except 'against the rules'. Perhaps I said it in a crass or ungentlemanly way, but regardless, it's their ball and they put the money in the meter so the warning was heeded and no more appreciative remarks were made about said member of parliament.

Interestingly though, I remember making a similar remark about a female member of the government and no warning was issued.

Makes you think...

I live in a country described as “socialist land” by American journalists

Well you can't argue with that. If there's one thing Americans are noted for it's knowing a socialist when they see one.

back on topic (and I see you've responded about Brexit, I'm not answering, at least not here, you have my opinions and I don't think the forum needs another brexit thread)

WRT echo chambers and manner and style of debates on here.

A critical review of your post, bearing in mind the relative % of meaning that is lost by not having verbal or body language, only the written word.

...you are not much better

Nope. It's not.

....like it or not.

- they come across to me as quite confrontational / shutdown language. I read them and sighed 'here we go again' .  If we want decent debate to be tolerated and to be less of an echo chamber, we need to be better at choosing our words.

Maybe I'm oversensitive / too corporate but I'd really hesitate to use phrasing like that in an email or a meeting. It might be mealy mouthed, but

'I can see why you think that but in my opinion the brexit ship hasn't sailed yet and.here's why I think that.....'

Might be wordy but otherwise can you predict the interpretation of the subtext to 'No. It's not' to me? You've done nothing to accept or validate that I have a different opinion, just immediately said it's worthless.

Fair enough.  Its all gone circular again

Edit:  I find that sort of phrasing passive / agressive.  But point taken

Oh and from page 2 of this thread:

Biggest leftie echo chamber of any sites I’ve ever visited.

Honestly, no one is forcing you to stay. Other forums are available, simple as.

We are missing the hard right and the ideologivcal brexitters

Tj, with respect, and I'm sure I've mentioned this before. But I think one of the reasons you sometimes get yourself into bickering matches is that your language sometimes feels contrived and disingenuous.

See 'hard right' to me (and maybe it's just me) brings up thoughts of people like Nick Griffin, Combat 18 and the National Front. Actual shitheads. So as a fervent remainer, I assume you're doing this deliberately in order to paint leavers as racists. Rather than the much more nuanced and varied reasons people probably voted leave, from just a taking a massive gamble, to a protest over austerity, to concerns about loss of identity and dwindling resources like access to a GP or competition for jobs or affordable housing. None of which are 'hard right' or racist.

See also people on here calling out those with different views as 'trolls'. It's used as a weapon to beat down anyone who doesn't agree with you.

joambourgie - the hard right I refer to is those folk and they are not represented on here.  right wing we have a few. Centre right we have a lot - using right and left in the european sense - labour now being a party of the centre right

I can't win on the language " contrived and disingenuous" according to you. and too confrontational and direct according to jonv 🙂

I also believe its disingenuous to ignore the elephant in the room that IMO one of the main drivers for brexit was racism - often justified using those other issues,  That red wall vote was again IMO very much a racist vote

Nick Griffin, Combat 18 and the National Front.

But, on the other hand, I think we're all pretty confident that we could say how people in those groups voted in the referendum. Assuming they managed to lift their knuckles off of the floor to put the x in the box, obvs. How anyone on 'the left' justified falling in behind the likes of Farage is baffling. If in doubt, look at those around you.

one of the main drivers for brexit was racism

Well I don't agree so fair enough. That's your opinion and we'll leave it there.

But, on the other hand, I think we’re all pretty confident that we could say how people in those groups voted in the referendum

Oh absolutely, but what's your point? They probably align themselves with all sorts of other things too. Maybe even something you agree with! You massive, massive racist.

😉

I find that sort of phrasing passive / agressive.  But point taken

Also fine. There is an interesting point from it. One of the big misnomers in life to me is 'treat others as you want them to treat you'

Fine at a top level of being kind, respectful, etc., but misses the point that not everyone has the same triggers and warm spots. And if I want to have a constructive and meaningful relationship, meeting, debate, whatever with someone then it makes sense to try to work out what they are for them. If I just talk to someone using the kind of collaborative and validating speech that I like because it reassures me I'm being respected and listened too - and they find it annoying or passive aggressive, then it won't get heard properly. And v/v.

And to saucemerlin's point; it's not the same as making abhorrent points in pleasant language somehow making them OK.  JRM might be polite but he's still a ****

saucemerlin’s point

It was martinhutch and I altered the quote slightly to make it more generic.

But we are in the presence of true greatness on STW when it comes to the straight-faced wind up merchants who know how to stay millimetres inside the line and which buttons to push.

Doffs cap and leaves thread.

Lots more dual nationals on the forum now with passports from Belgium, Ireland, Sweden, Germany, France, the Netherlands… .

Woppit, Cougar, Woppit, oh and Don Simon.

Am I missing a gag here? The only way I'm dual nationality is if you're considering Accrington and Burnley. (Which wouldn't be all that wild TBF)

We are missing the hard right and the ideologivcal brexitters ( mainly)

>@tjagain not sure I'd agree about ideological brexiteers. I'd stated my view on why I voted for Brexit and still stand by that. However, it was really tiresome when voicing an opinion to be confronted by dannyh screeching BLUE PASSPORTS, RACISM and every other trope under the sun. Hence not many folk proferring different views when you're being blamed whereas it's the Government that their ire should be directed to.

Am I missing a gag here? The only way I’m dual nationality is if you’re considering Accrington and Burnley.

Politics and the B word aside ...
The impartiality of a curated group of people interested in something that can be sold is inversely proportional to the page rank.

Honestly, no one is forcing you to stay. Other forums are available, simple as.

Is the sort of comment definitely makes this an echo chamber... vs for bike stuff where its a astroturfing platform

For the bike industry it is somewhere they can pay to have people tell lies on their behalf and expect people to call anyone pointing out the emperor has no clothes is a troll.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing

"Why are you moaning about the new standard you'll still be able to buy the old one" is a prime example.

The term astroturfing is derived from AstroTurf, a brand of synthetic carpeting designed to resemble natural grass, as a play on the word "grassroots". The implication behind the use of the term is that instead of a "true" or "natural" grassroots effort behind the activity in question, there is a "fake" or "artificial" appearance of support.

It's no different to local "e-papers" (the stuff used to be in print) where marketing companies pay for "editorials" they wrote but ghost write under a "staff writers" name because these local e-papers are viewed as trustworthy sources.

See ‘hard right’ to me (and maybe it’s just me)

National front and co are the far right.
Hard right are, well, those who are to the right of the tory party.
Otherwise you just end up with a blob of the "right" which is just as useless as using the term "left".

For the bike industry it is somewhere they can pay to have people tell lies on their behalf and expect people to call anyone pointing out the emperor has no clothes is a troll.

Leaving aside the rather dubious accuracy of your claim.
Astroturfing isnt feeding of stories to tame journalists but instead fake grassroots organisations hence the name.
So it would need a few of us to set up the "new standards are more fun" group and then start spamming the forums.

No gag, Cougar, you just need to read the last line on its own. Woppit was banned over religion threads and donsimon was banned with several others in the great STW cull and has never returned. Can anyone else remember who got caught up in the cull? I think TheSouthernYeti was one who eventually returned but half heartedly.

What was the cull? Before my time.

The cull?  many would not see it as that but there was a period where there had been a series of nasty spats and personal attacks triggered by a small group of people who at least appeared to be deliberately creating friction for fun

There was an announced clamp down by the mods which result in a series of bans.  all for breaking the rules and all but TSY imo perfectly fair.  TSY got caught in it rather unfortunatly.  that action did reduce the nastyness that had been growing

You joined at about the time they were banned, jambourgie, were you one of them and have come back with a new pseudo? 😉

Edit: did you think Don Simon's ban was fair, TJ?

Echo chamber or not there are definitely a few voices on here that are a tad unhinged.

There was a cull? Is this the same universe as Ransos being banned for very little?

did you think Don Simon’s ban was fair, TJ?

I don't remember.  I know at the time they all bar TSY seemed fair enough to me.  I might have been banned myself at the time

Personally if I had been in charge there would have been a bunch more bannings.

Astroturfing isnt feeding of stories to tame journalists but instead fake grassroots organisations hence the name.
So it would need a few of us to set up the “new standards are more fun” group and then start spamming the forums.

That's rather old hat ... Astroturfing has evolved to simply taking over narratives in established grass roots organisations. As one of the main beneficiaries Wikipedia (or other grass roots platforms) is hardly up to date.

Personally if I had been in charge there would have been a bunch more bannings.

All the ones who were ganging up on you. 😉

And in reply to our jam snob: je le savais !

there are definitely a few voices on here that are a tad unhinged.

IMO it makes the place more interesting. I enjoy the entertainment value of hearing binners being described as a brexiteer and dannyh's reappearance every couple of months.

You never quite know what to expect on here.

Is this the same universe as Ransos being banned for very little?

We're never going to agree and there's no need to be snarky. You think I was guilty of an egregious breach if the rules and I think you got it completely wrong.

Wheras I enjoy watching the logical contortions folk who claim to be lefties go thru to give unwavering support to a labour party that has morphed into a centre right party and folk who claim to be remainers giving that same unwavering support to a party of brexit 🙂

Anyway.  Streeting picking unneeded fights with the BMA while supporting increased privatisation?

Put it on the Starmer thread, TJ, you'll only get people echoing agreement in this one. I do agree BTW.

Woppit was banned over religion threads and donsimon was banned with several others in the great STW cull and has never returned.

Woppit was banned for being outright offensive on religious threads despite repeated warnings asking him to tone it down, if I remember rightly. I don't recall Don Simon getting a permanent ban, I thought he left of his own volition, but you may well be right.

There was a time where the more problematic posters would get a couple of weeks off over Christmas just so that the admin / mods could get a break. I don't remember any permanent cull but again I could be wrong here.

Generally speaking, STW doesn't censor forum content, it moderates behaviour. It would be highly unusual to get a ban before getting a warning unless it was what might be termed gross misconduct. "We've told you twice and you're still doing it so have a break for a few days" is a far more likely scenario. Banning is a last resort.

There certainly was a period where we were all warned that the mods were going to clamp down and that clamp down did result in a series of bannings

I believe that the reason a lot of folk find the bannings unfair is they fail to understand its a private playground here that we can enter on sufferance.  Its not a democracy.

Shouty stuff cuts both ways, though, especially when it comes to the B-word.

On other social media is it hardly ever a remainer who throws a hissy fit when their motivations are questioned and then unravel in five seconds flat when scrutinised. The issuing of threats of physical violence and/or suggestions of what sexual impropriety someone gets up to with close relatives is pretty much a one-way street too.

I guess it must the stress of winning or something.

I believe that the reason a lot of folk find the bannings unfair is they fail to understand its a private playground here that we can enter on sufferance.

For me, it's that moderation is not necessarily consistent with stated policy. Ultimately I agree that they can do they want.