But tj, then you won’t have earned a beer cos you haven’t rasped your lungs out.
Some of my friends have both ebikes and normal bikes. They never bring their ebikes along to ride with those without. Maybe it's just that they have a better sense of self-awareness.
I have to say being serious I don't think ebikes and non ebikes mix on a group ride. Same as if you have very mixed ability groups. Its best when you are all at a similar pace.
As I said before it’s about mostly about courtesy. It does also depend on the average ability of the whole group I think and whether or not it’s billed as a ‘no drop’ ride ie everyone welcome. E-bikes in a group ride are a useful way for people to keep up on a ride they wouldn’t otherwise go on but shouldn’t IMO be used to get everywhere first. Again, courtesy.
As I said before it’s about mostly about courtesy.
Agreed - but I think that extends to asking ahead of time if it's cool bring your ebike.
Is it the bikes or are they just a catalyst for the inevitable?
The non ebikers live much further south than me and my friend and we only really ride with them a occasionally but we’ve been mates for 10 years or so tho.
I had a group of riding mates that grew up around mid week pre-work rides. As the group expanded three guys joined that don't have regular jobs (one's retired). They've all become (to my mind) very serious about improving their riding to the point that as much as i like them all I really don't like riding with them any more. I'm 30kg heavier than them, only ride one type of bike and do it for fun and fitness. They all have at least three types of bike plus Zwift setups. I can keep up with them to a point at most of our tracks, but over a big day i'm pushing a couple of zones higher than they are and end up getting ratty - which isn't fun.
So i'll let the group slide and maybe there'll be another one some time. Sounds like you should too, and perhaps find a posse of e-bikers. What is the collective noun for a group of e-bikers anyway? A whine?
They don’t flag their Strava rides as assisted which non ebikers occasionally mention.
That is a dick move, though. How hard is it to choose the right activity type?
(I did take a e-bike kom on a gravel bike, which I thought was funny, but apparently e-bikers disagreed with)
A guy i know that used to ride an e-bike on club rides (how annoying listening to the motor whining behind you on a singletrack climb) never used to choose ebike on Strava.
Worse is that he now doesn't ride a bike at all... but he puts his electric scooter rides on Strava as ebike rides! Seriously. I may as well start recording my drive to work or school pick-ups and record them as kite-surfing!
I've experienced it from both ends of the argument.
Several years ago, all of our group rode neebs. All of us were different levels of fitness but one of the group was particularly far below the fitness/ability level of the rest.
Long story short, he ended up being persuaded by the rest of us mainly, to get an eeb.
It was a game changer straight away and it meant he was riding with us instead of us waiting forever on the climbs, getting cold etc.
Most of the group rides were winch and plummet type rides, but I did a lot of xc style riding too with it being just us two, where he would bring his eeb also.
Not a huge problem most of the time. I'm known for my tolerance 😊
But having that constant light whirr behind you while you're killing yourself up a big climb, the rider chatting away to you without a care in the world, did get on my nerves a bit, but it was fine, as you were outdoors with a mate and as a whole, that was great.
I always felt a bit like when you're cycling up a steep hill on the road and a car comes up behind and can't/won't pass so sits on your back wheel, you can hear the engine and you feel this pressure and it's not nice. It felt like that to me, but as I say, it's a mate so meh.
About a year and a half ago I got an eeb myself. All our riding group come from a DH background so are well used to assisted climbs and pushing up etc. The eeb was going to(and does amazingly well) make our style of riding increase.
I now only take the eeb on big elevation days or winch and plummet tracks and only with other eebers or alone, don't ride xc on it, I ride one of my other bikes, but I wouldn't dream of riding the eeb with a group on neebs. I'd feel like a dick, even riding at the back. I'd feel like I was adding pressure to the grind of a climb for others. I'm too self conscious.
I remember a day in the Fod that must have been the turning point when a couple of lads we'd not seen for ages turned up on eebs on a winch and plummet ride. (They had a mate with them who was on a neeb but climbed as if he was on an eeb, but by the by) I was steadily dying on the main climb as I always do, and one of them was just whirring away next to me chatting freely. I really wanted him to bugger off! 😂
You could see then that the tide was about to change amongst us.
I think they can be a fantastic leveller in a group where you have a chronically slow climber but the others all have to be OK with it.
I think with us, we much preferred the one mate getting an eeb as that meant we no longer had to wait as long at the tops getting cold and bored. If others had started getting them (and they did eventually). It changes the dynamic and the group should probably split.
Sounds like you maybe ought to start/find a new group op. 'Reading the room' , it seems that way anyway.
Definitely new mates time.
I've just bought a new Edit frame so I'm commited but it does all feel like death by a thousand paper cuts, as one by one you hear of riding buddies succumbing. For the moment I still have plenty of riders to play out with, thankfully.
I have one good friend with an eeb. If we ride together I just take a tow rope.
I wouldn't dream of riding with a group of them, no pleasure in that. In fact, only yesterday, I bumped into a local shredder who was suffering this problem. His mates have all gone down that route, so rides have just become sufferfests for him.
No point hanging out with *s. I actually prefer riding alone because it's impossible to find a group that can ride at a similar speed, plus you always get the situation where people bring their mates along and they turn out to be *s and just ruin it for anyone who doesn't share their idea of what's fun.
Long story short, he ended up being persuaded by the rest of us mainly, to get an eeb.
See, imo, that's not cool.
Long story short, he ended up being persuaded by the rest of us mainly, to get an eeb.
See, imo, that’s not cool.
No, you see it was cool. Up until then, he'd essentially be riding on his own to all intents and purposes. He wasn't enjoying it, everyone else was becoming frustrated (in winter mainly) , but of course we waited for him. It was the same for years. He's a mate, we always waited.
But when he himself started noticing eebs, I guess some of us kind of encouraged that interest as none of us thought we'd ever get one, but knew that if he did, it would mean we'd actually enjoy his company on a ride throughout, rather than just seeing him at the start, end, and tops of the climbs, where inevitably others would be eager to drop in, and he'd be dying or would very often sit out a run.
With the eeb he never sat a run out.
You needn't try to turn it into a negative. It wasn't.
He's a mate.
Honestly, it’s why I never went back to the MNPR rides after my first one. I felt so… embarrassed about my lack of match fitness, I felt massively guilty for holding everyone else up.
You should get an emtb, they're great! 🙂
Local mtb club to me, a handful of the riders have e bikes. Works well, helps them up the hills to keep up with everyone else, and toward the end of the ride when they'd probably be flagging - we all got back together. They never 'power off away' with them. It's just about use case really isn't it
Similarly in my road club. There's a chap that has been riding to a 'high level' his whole life. Is starting to come up against injury and pain now and is generally slowing. At a point where a lot of the club rides are all now really strong - what with Zwift all winter and good chaingangs all summer. This guy who was once the 'fast guy' in the club is now on the back foot. (age sucks!!!!) At some point, an e-road bike will let him keep up with the rides without absolutely destroying his back.
But when he himself started noticing eebs, I guess some of us kind of encouraged that interest
Yeah, that's fair enough. First phrasing read more like being nagged into getting one.
👍😊 Nah. Nobody is like that.
Well, how would you feel if people started showing up on those no pedal throttle bikes?
I'd think "what difference does it make to me?" To which the answer is, "none whatsoever," if they want to zoom off ahead then good luck to them (so long as I'm not reliant on them for directions).
having electric assistance also doesn’t feel like the same activity.
E-bikes do change the balance of a ride
Perhaps. But again - so what? If the e-bikes want to tear off in an antisocial manner then that's their choice, see you at the pub in half an hour lads. If they want to pootle alongside the regular bikes (which is how it sounds in the OP's case) then so what if they're in 'easy mode,' whining about that is nothing more than sour grapes.
If a group of 'friends' aren't getting along on a group ride then the problem isn't the choice of bike.
It don't think it matters whether it's an e- or std bike. We've always had gaps in speed up or downhill and ability of rider and bike, and the vast majority of riders aren't dicks about it.
This polarisation of all issues rather than compromise and nuance being the norm seems to be bleeding over from social media to real life
This is it.
*Leans back in rocking chair* "BITD we used to race XC and DH in the same weekend..."
Riding uphill on a non-ebike is hard. It can be real suffering. But if you’re sharing that experience with other people, then as a shared experience it makes it lighter, mentally, all round.
You’re not sharing that experience with someone who has a motor. I can easily imagine that it could take your mind away from that shared experience and make you feel a bit jealous, and subsequently, like shit.
It might if you were fixated on the differences in that way and prone to negativity. What if it's just chat at the top about whether we each got over that rooty step up or not this time, and how an e-bike or an unpowered HT has + and - in those situations, a bit of banter about whether the bike is the excuse today or not, etc? It's just riding bikes, no need for it to get so serious.
As an aside, I don't care about speed, effort or cost discrepancies, but I do find the motor noise intrusive, particularly en masse.
It’s just riding bikes, no need for it to get so serious.
Just about sums it up for me.
A couple of mates make their living from riding bikes and can leave the rest of the group for dead whatever bikes we're all on at the time. We all have Eebs and Neebs. And yes you can get left for dead even when we're all on Eebs.
But we're all mates so that doesn't happen on group rides because we're all just enjoying being out and riding [b]together[/b].
It’s just riding bikes, no need for it to get so serious.
agree, some of these group rides sound awful.
we had mixed ebike and bike rides for a while - it was fine - the ebikes either rode along side or waited at the top, or got 2 or more downhills in while the normal bikes made their way up. Dont think anyone had any issue with it.
Everyones got ebikes now though....
Its a shame it's come to that for you OP.
I'm the only e-biker on our Wednesday night rides, not had it long.
The other guys are very strong, fit riders and it used to be the case that I was pretty much riding on my own all night. They'd always wait for me and didn't seem to mind, well more than that they always encouraged me to keep coming out...they're a decnt set of blokes like that.
Now that I've got the e-bike, I can just keep in in ECO and actually ride with them. It's been a game changer in terms of enjoyment. Yes they make jokes, but in a light-hearted fun way, not a snide way. They don't seem to mind the noise of my motor.
I always used to be the fat bloke at the back, coughing my lungs up on the climbs and yes, the whippets did wait for me at the top, but only until I got to them. Then then were rested and ready to go right away while I was trying to reinsert my lungs into my chest cavity. Then I got an eeb and after the first couple of "weeee isn't this ace" turbo rides I backed off and ride with the group. A couple of others in the group are recent converts and went through the same process and all is well with the group because ATEOTD, we're all out to have a good time.
I occasionally ride with another group that's now all eebs but back when I was the only one cheating one of the whippets used to ask me to pace him on the climbs; he'd set the speed he wanted to go and I'd just sit in Turbo along side him.
They don’t seem to mind the noise of my motor.
I wouldn't either. Better than the sound of someone
coughing my lungs up on the climb
; )
1) What Cougar said ... minus fancy HTML stuff
This always happens with groups. Friendly group ➡ more people ➡ friction ➡ yet more people ➡ critical mass ➡ massive argument ➡ schism ➡ two happy groups.
2) Regardless IMHO it's up to the eMTB riders to adapt as its that changing the group dynamic
3) "What to expect" - ride planning etc. (eMTB/real bike needs to be considered)
4) not being a vibrator (eDick) (I just made that up but seems fitting)
I'm part of a few groups of various sizes.. including splinter groups and splinter groups of splinter groups and I also ride a fairly wide range of MTB from DJ - XC - DH - "f***king about in the woods with mates" and beginner to pretty hardcore before getting a beer and own a eMTB as well as real bikes
#3 is absolutely key.... if people don't know what to expect and the ride isn't planned to consider skill/riding/fitness and ASSISTANCE the chance of some of the group having a shit time is high. The E amplifies this.
I recently(ish) went on something billed "HC HT" ... mis-described and absolute shit. People were dropping out after 30 minutes... the route studiously avoided riding anything worth riding and it's now used as a joke in a splinter group.
Basically a series of climbs then take a fireroad decent to avoid the actual trail setting of 10 seconds before the poor bastards finding it difficult actually get to the top ... and refusing to say where to meet.. (I'd have happily guided the ones struggling and let the 3-4 out of 15 go do an extra bit)
When you add in the eMTB aspect IMHO its much more important to plan and make people aware of what the ride entails.
Setting off when the exhausted riders get to the top is a shit trick...
As I'm also unofficial mechanic I get lots of requests for stuff as well and I'll tell people to arrive a suitable time in advance.. or just ask them to check basic stuff and/or buy spares before they arrive so I know what to expect (example "can you bleed my brakes before the ride" ... I'll ask them to check the pads and have spares if required... ) Some then seem put out when I won't start late and hold up everyone else or why I don't want to give them a spare set of pads when they couldn't be arsed checking. (It's not like I'm charging and I'm arriving early) or leave 30 mins for me to change their fork travel, expect to use my oil etc.
So I recently left a group because of a couple of things....but mostly people trying to manipulate others into a ride for them through deception.
1) Trying to get real bike riders to make up numbers for accommodation on a Wales trip but not telling them everyone signed up do far is on a eBike
2) mis-describing trip in other ways (calling Dyfi Forest a bike park)
3) Hiding costs ... hiding sleeping arrangements etc. (yeah so he gets a double room to himself)
Same group one of the group had asked if anyone wanted to show her and the kids round SHills (she doesn't know it well enough to guide the kids)... its a 2 hour drive for her and teenage kids so I suggested a 10:00 start (which meant a different car park)... another mate decided it would be ideal for his lad (who is a handful) given the other rider is professionally qualified to deal with the handful lad it would have all been great THEN someone hijacked the ride. 0800 start... and my mate with the handful asked if he could meet later .. and was told "leave him in the van with an XBOX"
Anyway I left the group and had a load of people asking me "why" and "come back" including the person made the leave the kid guy comment - the Wales trip guy kept asking me "are you coming to Wales" - I kept saying no not on a mixed group and he said "but you have an eBike why would you care?" and others were "lets do another splinter group"...
Amazingly I went for a drink after the ride with someone who is outside the "messenger group" but joins us on a few rides and she said "Why doesn't <<that bloke>> get an eBike ... all he does is moan on the climbs AND whenever he sees an eBike... (doesn't even need to be in the group) - Same bloke I had to apologise to the trail pixies for after he was mumbling about "them hanging about on the trail and ruining it for everyone" within earshot.
but basically the reason I left is people trying to manipulate others into doing the ride suits them resulting in 1/2 the group having a shit day... ironically the "leave the kid" guy is the one moans at every climb AND whenever he see's an eBike and seems to have no idea that hijacking a "ride with kids" and turning it into what he wanted is breaking rule #1.
I guess the point is its probably 1-2 out of the entire group leading this sentiment and the others are more going along with it because they are bullies. (I'd guess they are the ones like beasting the others on climbs)
Why not arrange a "mixed ride" with a couple of them and say you are sick of the crap... and its ruining your day and if its just a couple of you you'll take a tow rope.
At the same time I think you need to be sensitive as the "others" probably don't want to swap one beasting for another?
“can you bleed my brakes before the ride”
Our regular group that we ride with in the FOD is a mix between eeb and non eeb and it's all good fun and no one cares what you ride. As long as you're good fun then who cares.
Because it’s a trail ride with a sprint race at the end and the object is to rasp your lungs out and make your legs tremble. We do it because we like haring around the woods in the dark, gasping up hills with downhills as relief and reward for the hard work. You earn your pint in the Fountain. Using an e-bike kind of misses the point.
It sounds very manly and virile, I can see where you're coming from. But for me having a pint after exercise misses the point even more.
It just goes to show we all have different perspectives.
By and large I don't think ebikes mix well with acoustic ones.
The other guys are very strong, fit riders and it used to be the case that I was pretty much riding on my own all night. They’d always wait for me and didn’t seem to mind, well more than that they always encouraged me to keep coming out…they’re a decnt set of blokes like that.
Now that I’ve got the e-bike, I can just keep in in ECO and actually ride with them. It’s been a game changer in terms of enjoyment. Yes they make jokes, but in a light-hearted fun way, not a snide way. They don’t seem to mind the noise of my motor.
Likewise. You get a mix of abilities but particularly in the winter it can be more of the fitter stronger ones and while there's no question of people waiting etc it's not so fun to be flogging yourself to keep up at the back or think you're holding people up. emtb in eco means I can stay in the middle of the group, still get a workout, actually get to chat (it is a social ride after all), and the group as a whole can go a bit quicker.
The group has a "ebikes are fine but don't be a dick" rule which works.
It sounds very manly and virile, I can see where you’re coming from. But for me having a pint after exercise misses the point even more.
Its not macho in any way, it’s just a group who likes to ride in that way, who relish the strenuous exercise in that setting but aren’t doing it to become elite athletes, so we happily drink pints afterwards. Anyone who likes riding that way is welcome, whether they’re fast or slow, it’s making the effort we enjoy!
Anyone who likes riding that way is welcome, whether they’re fast or slow, it’s making the effort we enjoy! As long as they don’t have an e-bike.
FIFY!
This is a really interesting read. I've just got one as I've slipped from right in the mid-pack to the fat guy totally unable to keep up. Had a bad run of training and general laziness last year so was really struggling to get back on the training needed to get back up to speed so bought an e-bike, started looking at short travel FS as my back couldn't take the HT any more but it snowballed from there.
It's taken me from well off the back to sitting with the fastest climber in eco mode. I very rarely blast up hills in a higher mode and usually just sit in the group. If I'm out with a less fit group I'll be on my normal bike again.
Interesting to see how that can still be annoying to groups despite getting fitter myself through riding more (until the last few weekends) and not causing so much waiting around on winter rides.
Not electric bike related, but I used to ride as part of a group/team for quite some time, things got toxic, there was always someone talking about someone else behind their backs, so I gave up and left the group and stopped following them all on all social media. A couple of years later I happened to look on the team's website and they were still exchanging nasty comments about me and my family.
I think it is just people, as sad as it is – some people get older but don't grow up and keep with the playground bullying attitude.
It’s taken me from well off the back to sitting with the fastest climber in eco mode. I very rarely blast up hills in a higher mode and usually just sit in the group. If I’m out with a less fit group I’ll be on my normal bike again.
Interesting to see how that can still be annoying to groups
good to see you've integrated nicely and non-dickishly into a group of non-ebikes, so you are clearly doing it right.
but what does the new slowest person think about all this?
I think it is just people, as sad as it is – some people get older but don’t grow up and keep with the playground bullying attitude.
Some very wise words from johndoh there, which could be applied to many situations, not just organising group rides!
To the OP maybe try having one last go at explaining your side and if you only get a negative response move on.
I've been the slow person at the back of group rides and my overall enjoyment has been negatively impacted if the majority of the group puts too much pressure on the slowest to keep up a pace they can't maintain. Waiting at the top of a climbs for slower members should also mean giving them time to recover (not just flying off like scalded cats when they catch up).
I guess enjoyment from social rides with mates can mean different things for different people, some want to take the opportunity to catch up and have a chat during the ride and some want to 'push on' for the ride and save the chat to the cafe/ Pub.
I can understand how throwing EEBs into the mix could cause problems unless everyone has some idea what to expect from a ride. Nothing against EEBs though, more power to you if you have one they look like fun, if prices ever come down significantly I might get one.
Just knobs being knobs, don't bother with them.
In most riding groups, i'm at the group average fitness or greater, so spent a lot of time giving space to/ensuring slower riders feel included and get adequate breaks at the top. My annoyance is that now a lot of those people i used to make an extra effort with due to them being slower, they now have ebikes and aren't returning a similar courtesy. I'm not going to kill myself because you're on an ebike. Plus if i'm riding with someone, i like to see it a social, so expect lots of chatting and social time, especially since i'm definitely compromising on the riding side, as the ebike rider will, by going at neeb pace.
I do have an ebike, but isn't for me.
I normally ride on my own, but when I do ride with others it's very much about the shared experience. The people I ride with are pretty similar in ability so there's not much waiting around, we just get on with the ride and all suffer/have fun the same. If someone turned up with a e-mtb it would completely change the dynamics, the bond we have would be broken. If mixed groups work that's fine but they won't for everyone. It sounds to me that the bond holding the OP's group together has broken and so what 🤷♂️. You are only a loosely connected group meeting a couple of times a year. Just find other people to ride with, or just enjoy more solo rides and please yourself what and how you ride.
Sounds like they weren't really very good friends in the fist place. I ride in a group of 6 ro 7 guys with ebikes down the borders most weeks. I was the last one to get an ebike so the months leading up to me getting one I just did my own thing as Its nice of people to wait for you ultimately a mixed group dosent really work. Getting back to your point If your mates were being nasty it genuinley sounds like they are knobends Im sorry to say and probably just a bit jealous.
Just ride with the nice ones.
I often ride in a group with everything from niche singlespeeds, enduro gnarpoons and Ebikes, its all a laugh as ****ting about bikes should be and there is no issues or even slight arsey "banter". Sounds like the OP's riding group are dicks.
good to see you’ve integrated nicely and non-dickishly into a group of non-ebikes, so you are clearly doing it right.
but what does the new slowest person think about all this?
That's a good question, it's a fairly small group with fairly similar fitness levels but can definitely see rides where that can cause problems. If I spot anyone struggling I'll sit beside them at their pace or give them a wee push but can see from the comments here that might be the worst thing to be doing!
It's a real tough one from the back of the pack point of view as I was getting pretty close to stopping going out as I hated everyone hanging about in the cold or cutting rides short.
Sounds like the OP’s riding group are dicks.
That's basically it, innit.
I guess (barely ridden with eebers myself) that it's possible to integrate on "social" rides but you'd need things to really align for more enthusiastic rides to work (e.g. unfit eeber, very fit MTBer).
Sounds like a good test to find out if your riding group are friends or just "riding buddies" anyway.
@stevemtb - that's an angle I hadn't considered. Some people really hate being "last" - and if they're not catching up then that can be demoralising.
Previously the only solutions were quit, or get fitter. But now there's a "buy a motor" solution that puts people at the front and, importantly, transfers the original problem onto someone who was previously fit enough to not be last.
It's a bit like Pay2Win in computer games isn't it. 🙂
I bet Andrew Tate rides an ebike.
probably rides a surron, without a helmet - wheelying down the pedestrianised section of the high street
