Can we get some clarification on whether these people are:
a) covid deniers
b) anti vaxxers
c) anti another lockdown
And then see how people's opinion of heavy handedness changes
^ To answer myself, BBC article says "increased measures" but looking at Austria last week that can be fairly ambiguous
a) covid deniers
b) anti vaxxers
c) anti another lockdown
It's not about their motivation for protesting that's the issue, protesting is part of a modern democracy, even if you are bat-shit mental. There is a line though between legitimate protest and riot, it appears some members of the protest crossed the line.
The anti-expert populist rhetoric that has been adopted so effectively by many rightwing media outlets & politicians is at fault here
I just dont have the energy to argue with some of the antivax/covid-denying nonsense people post of facebook, twitter, its truly insane
Perhaps the protesters don’t believe in bullets,or even guns?
Force-treating them with this lead-based medicine seems unethical to me, having googled the long-term risks.
Danish police shot 11 people back in 93 at protests after a vote related to the EU.
If i recall correctly there were shouts of aim for the legs back then.
My point is that just because you disagree with their cause, you should be alarmed if an uprising is being dealt with so aggressively.
Did you watch the video? They were throwing firebombs and massive fireworks at the Police. I'm sorry, but that's not a protest, that's a riot and rioters that disrespect those sent to enforce the law are likely to get hurt.
They police have a right to defend themselves and, tbh, if you're stupid enough to attack a person carrying an assault rifle, well, what do you expect is going to happen?
There have been similar riots in Rotterdam relating to Feyenoord - including a similar police response in shooting football hooligans. So it's not something new and seems to be how the police there deal with such incidents.
Covid denying idiots are rioting & attacking police in Holland
Broadbrush swipe right there
Can we get some clarification on whether these people are:
a) covid deniers
b) anti vaxxers
c) anti another lockdown
I know a lot of people that are unhappy with the way that rules and mandates are being imposed - none of them are 'Covid deniers'
I also know a lot of people that don't want THIS vaccine - none of them, as far as I know are anti-vaxxers as known in the traditional sense
I don't know anyone who wants another bloody lockdown
I also know a lot of people that don’t want THIS vaccine – none of them, as far as I know are anti-vaxxers as known in the traditional sense
I don’t know anyone who wants another bloody lockdown
Why don't they want the vaccine?
I know a lot of people that are unhappy with the way that rules and mandates are being imposed – none of them are ‘Covid deniers’
I also know a lot of people that don’t want THIS vaccine – none of them, as far as I know are anti-vaxxers as known in the traditional sense
This is very true.
You can question the rules and mandates (and those that are being looking at in the future) without saying that Covid doesn't exist.
You can question some of the vaccines and who they are given to without saying no to all vaccines.
Certainly the first point is quite prevalent in my group of friends.
My point is that just because you disagree with their cause, you should be alarmed if an uprising is being dealt with so aggressively.
I'm happy for any uprising against a genuinely democratically elected government to be dealt with in this manner.
As for rioting that may endanger life, I'm happy to let the democratically elected government of that country decide the rules of engagement, as we do here.
Protesting is fine, rioting, criminal damage and danger to life and limb are probably unnecessary.
Why don’t they want the vaccine?
A mixture of things...
The limited trials
As yet unkown side effects, as well as some known side effects
Lies about how effective it is (was supposed to be) against Covid
The whole propaganda surrounding the implementation of it
Being virtually forced to have it for social acceptance
The fact that the chances of even knowing you have Covid are 2/3, let alone being hospitalised by it
The fact that even if vaccinated, you can still contract and pass on Covid
Most of all - personal choice in a free country
None of tbat is true about the covid vaccine really tho is it? all made up nonsense.
To tj's point;
The whole shooting people in the legs with live rounds thing reminded me of something I read the other day.
During the many BLM protests in the U.S. there were over 150 people with serious headshot wounds (losing an eye etc.) from 'non lethal' rounds fired by police. Not that the police were aiming directly at protesters and media reprasentatives heads or anything....
A mixture of things…
The limited trials
As yet unkown side effects, as well as some known side effects
Lies about how effective it is (was supposed to be) against Covid
The whole propaganda surrounding the implementation of it
Being virtually forced to have it for social acceptance
The fact that the chances of even knowing you have Covid are 2/3, let alone being hospitalised by it
The fact that even if vaccinated, you can still contract and pass on Covid
Most of all – personal choice in a free country
Yeah...But...No...But......
All utter ****ing bullshit anti-vax conspiracy nonsense taken out of context and if any of my friends held those views after being shown the evidence against then id tell them to GTF
STR, step away from facebook, its not doing you any favours
Lookong down the line, I do worry about future resistance to other vaccines, MMR etc.
Luckily I have encountered very few anti vaxxer's, though interestingly with those that I have met the conversation has started with 'the science', moved on to 'the media' and ended up with who controls 'the media' and we all know who it is that they are referring to when the talk about 'the media'.
There's a lot more going on here than vaccine resistance.
Most of all – personal choice in a free country
The only valid and point that stands amongst that list.
Most of all – personal choice in a free country
What about my personal choice to have an NHS that isn't overwhelmed with people who did their own research and wound up on a ventilator?
The limited trials
trials were rushed, no doubt, but jesus we have soo much data now and it all says its better than catching covid, whatever age or risk category you are in
As yet unkown side effects, as well as some known side effects
Initial side effects would be obvious within a few days, long term 6-12 months max, as immune response doesnt change after then, anything else is in your head
Lies about how effective it is (was supposed to be) against Covid
lies by who? as studies get bigger more data becomes available
The whole propaganda surrounding the implementation of it
propaganda from the brexiteer tories, if you cant se ethrough that yet, I have a (garden) bridge to sell you
Being virtually forced to have it for social acceptance
imagine people being selfish enough to think they shouldnt have it
The fact that the chances of even knowing you have Covid are 2/3, let alone being hospitalised by it
its not all about you, >150k dead not enough?
The fact that even if vaccinated, you can still contract and pass on Covid
but you are much less likely to get severly ill ot pass it on
Most of all – personal choice in a free country
its not free, we all have responisbility & legal obligation not to drink drive, wear a set belt, crap in the street etc etc
I’m sorry, but that’s not a protest, that’s a riot and rioters that disrespect those sent to enforce the law are likely to get hurt.
I thought the issue was the use of live rounds?
The fact that it's a riot and not a protest is completely irrelevant in that context.
A few years back we had some very major rioting and looting in Croydon, the Met did not use live rounds. Turning the riot into a blood bath would not have been an acceptable or effective response.
its not free, we all have responisbility & legal obligation not to drink drive, wear a set belt, crap in the street etc etc
I'll probably come back to the rest of it later, albeit we are in danger of derailing a thread with stuff that's been done to death elsewhere.
But if you can't see a difference between laws against irresponsible actions and mandating being injected (however good and harmless that injection may or may not be), then your views are in my eyes as skewed as some of the crap you read on Facebook.
You have a personal choice whether to drink drive, or crap in the street and know the consequences you'll face if you do
It wasn't a bloodbath though was it? Nobody was killed or hit in the head. Wish we could say the same for our policing.
You have a personal choice whether to drink drive, or crap in the street and know the consequences you’ll face if you do
surely its exactly the same for mandatory vaccination?
you dont hove to take it but you know the consequences if you do
You have a personal choice whether to drink drive, or crap in the street and know the consequences you’ll face if you do
The consequences of drink driving is that you could kill someone, the consequence of not getting vaccinated is that you could kill someone.
So far no one is mandating a prison sentence for being unvaccinated. However the innocent need protecting, and as a society creating law is the correct tool to provide that protection.
My personal choice is to minimise my and my loved ones exposure to a potentially deadly disease. I am also happy to extend that protection to a wider societal circle by being vaccinated and following basic protocols. Not doing so is selfish, ignorant and endangers life.
Ok can keep it on topic please.
Nobody was killed or hit in the head.
Successfully using live rounds to control a riot without killing anyone doesn't provide justification for their use.
And I am assuming that everyone realises that being shot in the leg can easily prove fatal.
If causing non-fatal injuries is the primary objective there are far better ways than firing live rounds.
Have a read of this before you start characterising these people as brave freedom fighters - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/21/icu-is-full-of-the-unvaccinated-my-patience-with-them-is-wearing-thin
It's just pure selfish exceptionalism BS, with a smattering of far right conspiracy thrown in for good measure.
Most of them are football hooligans who just fancy a scrap. 'Chat shit, get banged' comes to mind.
Hangin's too good for'em
Christ on a bike.
And I am assuming that everyone realises that being shot in the leg can easily prove fatal.
If causing non-fatal injuries is the primary objective there are far better ways than firing live rounds.
rubber bullets ( AKA baton rounds) have a long history of killing folk. Tazers are no good in crowds
whilst to us it may seem disproportionate its no more lethal than baton rounds and is clearly within the rules the dutch police work under
Christ on a bike.
I'm not sure that's really a viable crowd control measure for most police forces TBH.
Hangin’s too good for’em
It's a bit old school, maybe the government could invent a secret bioweapon disguised as a vaccine to get them instead?
Bullets come back down almost as fast as they go up.
I always wondered about that. "Firing warning shots into the air" - but they've gotta go somewhere, right?
I know a lot of people that are unhappy with the way that rules and mandates are being imposed – none of them are ‘Covid deniers’
I'm unhappy about a lot of that. I'm not out throwing explosives at the police.
A mixture of things…
A mixture of ignorant bollocks.
Most of all – personal choice in a free country
The only valid and point that stands amongst that list.
What about my personal choice to be able to go to Tesco not being surrounded by plague rats?
A "free country" does not imply that you can do whatever you want. There are requirements dictated to us by society. Would we argue that it's OK to stab your next-door neighbour because it's a "free country"? How often have we locked up the Naked Rambler for the crime of not wearing pants?
It's a straw man anyway, because no-one in the UK is talking about mandatory vaccinations other than anti-vaxers.
... assuming you can actually have it, refusing the vaccine ultimately boils down to one of two things:
1) I don't understand it.
2) I think I'm special.
… assuming you can actually have it, refusing the vaccine ultimately boils down to one of two things:
1) I don’t understand it.
2) I think I’m special.
Cf.
The limited trials
1.
As yet unkown side effects, as well as some known side effects
1.
Lies about how effective it is (was supposed to be) against Covid
1 and 2.
The whole propaganda surrounding the implementation of it
2.
Being virtually forced to have it for social acceptance
2.
The fact that the chances of even knowing you have Covid are 2/3, let alone being hospitalised by it
1 and 2.
The fact that even if vaccinated, you can still contract and pass on Covid
1 and 2.
Most of all – personal choice in a free country
2.
Next? Honestly, if I were you I'd be looking for a higher calibre of friends.
rubber bullets ( AKA baton rounds) have a long history of killing folk. Tazers are no good in crowds
And? How is that relevant TJ - who has suggested using rubber bullets and tazers?
The Croydon riots of 2011 were as serious as you get (10 years later Croydon still bears some of the scars) the Met managed to get on top of those without the use of live rounds, rubber bullets, and tazers.
No warning shots were required and no aiming at the legs either.
As with the table in theotherjonv post, the Dutch police are aiming for their legs,and it is a serious riot, one where the lives of the police and innocent members of the public are being put at risk, so maybe thats justification enough, unless you think anarchy is a legitimate protesting technique.
I was at the 1985 Brixton riot. Not that I was throwing stuff, just that I had a squat there at the time and like the others in it went out for a look see. That was pretty mental, and the police werent shooting people,though they did have petrol bombs flung at them(and bricks, bottles etc), rather running down specific groups and bashing them over the head with long batons.
The tactics used in the UK in 1985 cant be compared with the tactics used by a different police force, in a different country 35 years later, but I dont think they would go to such extremes if they didnt think that action was warranted.
And? How is that relevant TJ – who has suggested using rubber bullets and tazers?
it was suggested less lethal methods could be used - I pointed out that this killed no one and the "less lethal" methods used here cause deaths. Its not a simple answer.
Oh - and those Croyden riots were not that serious How many folk were killed?. Last time the dutch rioted there were tanks on the streets to regain order
What about my personal choice to be able to go to Tesco not being surrounded by plague rats?
You're vaccinated and will continue to be, every 6 months for the rest of your life possibly. What are you worried about?
A “free country” does not imply that you can do whatever you want. There are requirements dictated to us by society. Would we argue that it’s OK to stab your next-door neighbour because it’s a “free country”? How often have we locked up the Naked Rambler for the crime of not wearing pants?
Most people on here seem to be fairly intelligent, yourself included, so don't tell me you can't see the stark difference in morality. If you see past the fact that you probably support mandatory vaccination, you'll appreciate that in essence, being forced to have a vaccine against your will, is completely different to being prosecuted if you kill somebody with intent
no-one in the UK is talking about mandatory vaccinations other than anti-vaxers.
They probably weren't in Austria 6 months ago
those Croyden riots were not that serious How many folk were killed?
Four according to Wikipedia, but not in Croydon. Those riots spread over large parts of the country. I thought I remembered a couple of people dying in the arson attack of a carpet shop, but looks like they didn't. There was a lot of other serious crimes too.
It's a little bit OT, but to reply to STR, I'm fine with people exercising their rights not to be Covid vaccinated, but I'm also very supportive that those who choose not to are excluded from a lot of the benefits of living in a society where they are freely available.
They probably weren’t in Austria 6 months ago
As I understand it, they're not in Austria now either. They still have free choice not to have it, there are just consequences to that decision.
They probably weren’t in Austria 6 months ago
I think the German health minister has suggested that everyone in Germany will either be; vaccinated, recovering or dead in the coming months.
Honestly, if I were you I’d be looking for a higher calibre of friends.
The points I've mentioned are by a long way not a summary of the views of my whole circle of friends
However, I do know quite a lot of people through my locality, work and staying in different places away from home.
To be honest, I'm quite happy with the people that I associate with, because unlike the judgemental crowd on here, not one SINGLE one of them (the vast majority of whom are vaccinated) would ostracise a friend for having different views (however much they might disagree), or not having a vaccine. Just like they wouldn't kick someone out of a house party for voting Tory - because, as I've seen, that's the sort of people that seem to have the rule over this forum
