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Maybe they're just driving at the speed it's safe to drive at?
Yeah maybe. Or maybe they have a spare tyre on. Or engine trouble. Or they are hypermiling.
They don't [i]have[/i] to drive at the speed limit, that's fine, but I suspect (and anecdotes from the Speed Awareness course threads support this) that at least some of them just don't have a clue what the speed limit actually is.
gHere's a test of your knowledge.Is the designated speed limit the speed it's legal to drive at or the speed it's illegal to exceed?
Did I say they had to speed up?
I said pull over and let people pass. Going 75% of the speed limit in reasonable conditions is rude. I doubt most people would be happy if on a train the journey took aassive % longer, not because of engineering works, not because of more rains on the line, not because of snow or leafs, but because one of the train drivers fancies a little poodle as he is doesn't care when he arrives.
The clue is in the word "limit". The limit is the maximum allowed, not a target to aim for.
See my reply above.
If it is safe to do so, you should drive at the speed limit. You can be failed in your driving test for 'not making reasonable progress'.
gobuchul -
It's funny but it seems everyone on here is a competent, capable and courteous driver.
You'll never hear me say I'm a good driver, I'm bloody awful, as anyone who has been unfortunate enough to be my passenger will attest (I'm worse on my own!) - I react to how other idiots drive, is my biggest failing.
BUT, what I do know (and do without thinking!) is how to indicate on roundabouts and on Mways. And how to get in the lane for the slip road I want BEFORE the 300m marker! And how to give cylists decent space on the road!
[quote=GrahamS ]Tailgating seems to be the norm now and I stick to the speed limit so seem to get it all the time, especially through 30 mph zones.
20's are even worse.
People seem to get very upset if you have the temerity to drop your speed as you enter a 20 zone. I go through one regularly and I'm just waiting for the day that someone tries to thump me for obeying the law.
Oh god, yes. I was out on Sunday in my MX5. Was in a long 20 zone driving through town (most of Edinburgh is a 20 now). Top down, my girly long hair blowing in the breeze, tunes on, enjoying the sun while pootling along at 20.
Guy in an SMAX behind me for about a mile was apoplectic! Punching his dashboard, shouting and swearing (could hear it even with all his windows up), flashing lights, beeping horn. Bizarre thing is, it was quite a big road and no cars coming the other way so he could have overtaken.
Quite loudly called me a dick as I turned off.
Other things I see that are pretty stupid:
Getting angry at someone in front of you who brakes or turns sharply then peeping at them. You were too close, not their fault.
In fact, peeping the horn. What do you think it is? The Horn of Ultimate Justice? Do you think the person will go home and say to their partner "Luv, I've been a dick out on the road. Better call up the DVLA and send my licence back"
It's there to let other people know you are there, not as a way to express emotion. That's what bitching on internet forums is for!
Yep - I had a guy the other day who got himself so wound up by being stuck behind me in a 20 for less than a mile that he went for a roaring overtake on the wrong side of a traffic island, requiring me and the oncoming car to brake hard to avoid hitting him.
And mini roundabouts. What is it with them that causes people to forget who has the right of way at a roundabout? Yet again (just this morning) I had to stop mid-turn as I was cut up by someone sailing onto the roundabout despite my indication that I was leaving at the last exit.
20's are even worse.People seem to get very upset if you have the temerity to drop your speed as you enter a 20 zone. I go through one regularly and I'm just waiting for the day that someone tries to thump me for obeying the law.
The problem is the law is a tit.....
I'm all for 20 zones outside schools when the school is open ....
Equally I'm fine someone doing 20mph in a 50 if they have a heavy load etc.
I do get a trifle annoyed by those doing 15 in a 50 for no other reason that "It's perfectly legal" ....when the same people then never pull over.
Right now some company are outside my house putting in speed bumps
The only people (almost) who speed on my road are the police with lights and sirens who seem to have it as a rat run.... (several times a week usually after 10pm) - other than that it's incredibly rare unless the road is closed and there is a bike race (then lots of people are speeding as its a 30 zone)
We just had a "survey" about speed control measures... and I don't know ANYONE on the road said they wanted them.(I'm sure some did but i don't know any of them)... but we are getting them all the same... the cynic in me says the contract was already promised and bribes paid BEFORE they even sent the survey.
there are numerous mini roundabouts no-one asked for designed so its not actually safe to use them properly at any decent speed (like 20 mph) in a 50 zone).... its impossible for a bus... yet the police do regular winter patrols to hand out tickets to anyone who's wheels clip the middle.....
Not to mention the deliberately hidden speed signs where they change the speed limit and put the sign behind a tree then make thousands a month just catching people who are trying to obey the speed limit they can see.
My mum is a very slow driver ... a few years ago she got a ticket for doing 40 in a 30 zone... (along with tens of thousands of others) because the road was a 50 mph road they silently changed to a 100m stretch of 30 mph with sign hidden....
So sorry but many of these are actually put in place because of some revenue generating/bribe.... reason which is more seriously illegal IMHO than doing 30 past a school at midnight (when the rest of the road is a 50 mph road)
I can't help thinking more people would obey the signs if they were in anyway thought out and not implemented to collect fines and/or because some contractor paid a bribe.
there are numerous mini roundabouts no-one asked for designed so its not actually safe to use them properly at any decent speed (like 20 mph) in a 50 zone).... its impossible for a bus
You know you are't obliged to go around mini roundabouts? They are there to indicate rights of way.
Bit of a rant fail there.
So sorry but many of these are actually put in place because of some revenue generating/bribe
a) bollocks and
b) what's wrong with the police having revenue?
On corner cutting.
I've noticed this a lot when I'm cycling. Car coming the other way, turning right across my path. Rather than stop and wait for me to pass the junction they will turn in earlier and completely cut the corner (all four wheels the wrong side of the centre line).
Happens all the time. Its just shitty and inconsiderate
yet the police do regular winter patrols to hand out tickets to anyone who's wheels clip the middle.....
Is this really a thing? Never heard of that before? Why only in Winter?
We just had a "survey" about speed control measures... and I don't know ANYONE on the road said they wanted them.
...
I can't help thinking more people would obey the signs if they were in anyway thought out and not implemented to collect fines and/or because some contractor paid a bribe.
Well, by way of a counter that argument: our village actively campaigned to be made a 20 limit, including a petition signed by the majority of the local residents.
Now we have an advisory 20 limit and flashing speed signs. The majority of local residents completely ignore it and drive at 30 😆
It's funny but it seems everyone on here is a competent, capable and courteous driver.
I'm sure we're not perfect. I'll happily admit I make the occasional error or may have picked up some bad habits (I'm impatient...).
What makes a good driver is the ability to identify their weaknesses. It seems most people here have that ability - and I would say that we are all above average drivers.
molgrips - Member
there are numerous mini roundabouts no-one asked for designed so its not actually safe to use them properly at any decent speed (like 20 mph) in a 50 zone).... its impossible for a bus
You know you are't obliged to go around mini roundabouts? They are there to indicate rights of way.Bit of a rant fail there.
It's not too late to check Section 188 of the Highway Code and correct yourself.
I suspect (and anecdotes from the Speed Awareness course threads support this) that at least some of them just don't have a clue what the speed limit actually is.
I don't doubt this for a moment.
When I did a SAC a few years ago, I think I was the only person in the room (other than the instructors) who knew a) what a single / dual carriageway actually was and b) what the NSLs were on them.
Just had a situation where I was sat in the van checking my emails before I left. It's chokka and I can see a chap in a car to my right sat waiting for a space . We make eye contact and he gestures to ask if I am leaving. Give him the thumbs up. As I start moving out of the space , a car pulls around him and the driver lines herself up to pull into the space I was in. So I pull back in and point to the car that was patiently waiting for the space. She then goes into a tirade of abusive hand signals and general horn blowing to which I shrug my shoulders and pull out on an angle to block her whilst matey parks in my now vacant space. Bless her
One thing I've noticed a lot lately is people that just have to keep coming when someone else is doing a manoeuvre or the road is narrowed by parked cars. Rather than stop 10 metres sooner when there's plenty of space to wait for 20 seconds and everyone can carry on with a friendly wave, they come right up close and then stop a few feet away, blocking the road. Then they end up reversing or driving on the pavement to sort it out. It's always something that was obvious when they were still halfway down the road too.
Is this really a thing? Never heard of that before? Why only in Winter?
Because its a lot harder when the ground is icy/frosty so people try and go straight rather than risk skidding....
[quote="molgrips"]You know you are't obliged to go around mini roundabouts? They are there to indicate rights of way.
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4301351
Rule 188
Mini-roundabouts. Approach these in the same way as normal roundabouts. [b]All vehicles MUST pass round the central markings except large vehicles which are physically incapable of doing so.[/b] Remember, there is less space to manoeuvre and less time to signal. Avoid making U-turns at mini-roundabouts. Beware of others doing this.
a) bollocks and
b) what's wrong with the police having revenue?
Where do you think that revenue generation should stop .... should they be allowed to plant drugs or firearms ???
The police shouldn't have ANY revenue... how on earth can they really uphold the law when they can earn an enormous amount of revenue by mis-applying...
I should probably not tempt fate but I've never had a traffic offence EVER
[b]I have received a automatic PCN for pulling into a bus lane to let a fire engine with flashing lights past! [/b]
I personally didn't get stopped at the mini roundabout but I saw others being stopped and from what I heard (3rd hand from parents at my kids schools) they were fined for touching the centre part... but they were trying to be safe and avoid skidding on frost.
its impossible for a bus [to use them properly]
Section 188 of the Highway Code:
All vehicles MUST pass round the central markings [b]except large vehicles which are physically incapable of doing so[/b]
Also bit silly to be complaining about not being able to go through traffic calming measures fast is rather silly no?
sharkbait - Member
Bring on the self-driving cars (unless they start producing special agressive version of the software!).
They will have to have a designed in "Aggressive" mode for urban areas to threaten pedestrians - otherwise they will not be able to make any headway in towns/cities as people will just reclaim the streets. This isn't being talked about in any of the futures being put out there by vehicle industry, but autonomous vehicles in cities are impractical without (even more) severe restrictions on pedestrian/cyclist mobility.
When I did a SAC a few years ago, I think I was the only person in the room (other than the instructors) who knew a) what a single / dual carriageway actually was and b) what the NSLs were on them.
Yep - that was the point I was trying to make. If all the other folk on that SAC learned something that day (or at least the ones paying attention) then [i]maybe[/i] they would learn something on a periodic re-test too.
Which is kind of the point. In most other walks of life, if you were in charge of a bit of machinery that injured 180,000 people a year and killed 1,700 then you'd be forced to have regular certification tests. But for some reason driving is different.
One thing I've noticed a lot lately is people that just have to keep coming when someone else is doing a manoeuvre or the road is narrowed by parked cars. Rather than stop 10 metres sooner when there's plenty of space to wait for 20 seconds and everyone can carry on with a friendly wave, they come right up close and then stop a few feet away,
Where I live, parking's at a premium so I usually end up parallel-parking, reversing into a space. Despite being as clear as I can be with indicating, braking as soon as practical and slamming it into reverse the nanosecond I come to a halt I probably get one or two a week who crawl right up my arse so I can't reverse.
All vehicles MUST pass round the central markings except large vehicles which are physically incapable of doing so
So it's obviously not a dangerous condition to do this or larger vehicles would not be allowed to use the mini roundabout.
Why fine a car driver for doing the same? Seems ridiculous.
I personally didn't get stopped at the mini roundabout but I saw others being stopped and from what I heard (3rd hand from parents at my kids schools) they were fined for touching the centre part... but they were trying to be safe and avoid skidding on frost.
I bet they just drove straight over the top of the roundabout with no attempt to go around it, but they're playing the victim* and the story has become "I juts brushed the paint and the nasty police told me off". If it's that icy then slow the **** down!
*Like the woman on a speed course with a colleague of mine. She was adamant that she was only 1mph over the limit, and it was silly that she was there, she'd not done anything wrong etc, etc. Turned out that she was doing 37 in a 30 but "everyone knows that you get 10% plus a few more, so that's 36mph, and I was only doing 1mph more than that." Also, as GrahamS has mentioned, knowledge of speed limits was atrocious. This sign:
[img] http://www.newsletter.co.uk/webimage/1.7493694.1469460632!/image/image.jp g" target="_blank">
Means a limit anywhere betwene 40 and 80mph if you believe the attendees!
Oh, oh, oh. A chance to share my recent experiences. This has happened TWICE recently in Brizzle. I've waited, then pulled out to give a cyclist as much of his lane as possible while overtaking, and the driver of the car (and Van the second time) has both executed a close pass and tried to undertake at the same time. In-****ing-credible. 🙄
There's a wee narrow road in Duddingston Village next to Holyrood Park (Edinburgh again).
The people who live there all park their cars on one side of the street so if you're coming from the park you have to wait til there are no cars coming.
Quite a few times I've been driving towards the park (i.e. on the lane with no parked cars) and someone has just pulled out and expects me to stop or even to reverse? Obviously there is give and take with these things, but some people take the piss. I just keep driving til I reach them and stop. Then turn the engine off. Once someone refused to back up for so long I started reading a book. And that involved getting out of the car and going into the boot to fetch it. Took a while to sort that one out as they had a few cars behind them now that all had to reverse.
Again, my MX5 and girly hair adds an extra topping off pissed-off for them
So it's obviously not a dangerous condition to do this or larger vehicles would not be allowed to use the mini roundabout.Why fine a car driver for doing the same? Seems ridiculous
Mini RABs slow traffic down due to the tight geometry of them. If you're just straightlining it in your car then you don't need to slow down, which makes the junction more dangerous. A coach or lorry would have to slow right down to get around it and still touch the paint, but the speed and danger have been reduced.
My employer is reasonably enlightened and insists that everyone undertakes a driving risk assessment every year. All the folks who think they're driving gods get selected for driver training....
They complain about being selected as if it's an insult to their manhood.
I think there are two issues , one is the aggressive type of driving most people describe and the other is the , perhaps elderly drivers whoa are so hesitant they seem petrified and who arguably should not be driving due to poor vision, nervousness /hesitancy .There should be re-testing for a number of reasons.Perhaps better public transport would help if people who shouldn't be driving had a realistic alternative.
T1000 - MemberThey complain about being selected as if it's an insult to their manhood.
It is! Honestly, I think the most shocking thing I've ever done in my office was admit I'm shit at parking, people couldn't believe what I'd said. And I had someone fairly convinced that I was a convicted arsonist one time, that didn't get close to the amazement.
If you're just straightlining it in your car then you don't need to slow down, which makes the junction more dangerous.
I would disagree.
You still have to slow down to have a look at what's going on.
I'm not advocating just screaming straight across a junction.
I frequently clip the edge of centre marking when going straight across, I don't drive straight over the top but tend to skirt the edge and not follow the full curve of the markings. I don't do this any faster than I could follow the curve and cannot see how it is a dangerous act.
wrightyson its the van i reckon.
I notice that i ALWAYS get people pulling out on me , doing crazy over takes, cutting me up etc when im in the van.
when im out in the land rover people wave me out of junctions , dont cut me up and generally as im going slower dont have to do crazy overtakes....
I bet they just drove straight over the top of the roundabout with no attempt to go around it, but they're playing the victim* and the story has become "I juts brushed the paint and the nasty police told me off".
If it's that icy then slow the **** down!
It's not really that simple....
Whereas they MAY have done more than just touch it.... this roundabout has no purpose anyway.... its on a 50 stretch and just suddenly appears if you don't know its there....
I knew it was there and I was driving a RWD with very wide tyres and I have a lot of driving experience. It's in an area shaded by trees and I was driving VERY VERY SLOWLY already ... and I realised the gritter couldn't have gritted the roundabout as it would be impossible....
(The gritter couldn't go round the roundabout .... so it had only driven over it but I'd anticipated this...) My OH on the other hand has only been driving a few years ... and seen very little bad weather in that time and other than the first time refused to even drive when its icy...
Actually her bad experience being on the same roundabout the year before now I think about it and her car is half as long again as mine.
The SAFE thing to do on that roundabout with any risk of frost is to go more or less straight over it.... it's just incredibly badly designed...
The road my mother got done on has very clear and unambiguous signs... until they hid a new one in a tree.... (and by in a tree I mean quite literally between branches)Means a limit anywhere betwene 40 and 80mph if you believe the attendees!
Tens of thousands of people got done in a week.... all following the VISIBLE signs....
Same area completely different sign....one you can read saying the 30 mph zone just ended and its NSL.... if you look (or know the bridge) this is just before a hard right bend ... and this road is often full of tourists who don't know it...
Who on earth thought of putting the end of the speed restriction on THAT side of the bridge? How hard would it be not to just keep the 30 across the bridge and dangerous bend at the other side?
its on a 50 stretch and just suddenly appears if you don't know its there
Sounds weird, got a streetview link?
Mini RABs slow traffic down due to the tight geometry of them. If you're just straightlining it in your car then you don't need to slow down, which makes the junction more dangerous. A coach or lorry would have to slow right down to get around it and still touch the paint, but the speed and danger have been reduced.
Why would they then stick a 15 mph roundabout in the middle of a 50 mph zone ???
What will boy wonder in his WRX do immediately after a roundabout ??
The same with the block half the road off ....
This seems to be the problem with traffic calming measures.... they seem to end up doing the exact opposite and become traffic irritating measures...
Worse quite often these measures are put into places where the driver is then navigating between traffic calming and trying to get to the next gap before the car coming the other way... and not watching for a kid chasing a ball....
Our old street had speed ramps and 1/2 blocked road and the reason we moved was the danger the traffic calming created and my son getting older.
Of course the cars also then diverted and ended up going 3x the distance and trying to make up lost time so all thge other surrounding residential streets ended up more dangerous.
The barrier for the 1/2 road block is a good 2' high.... they just kept increasing the height every accident. It never occurred to them I suppose this is what caused the accidents....
It's like the bars designed so trucks can crush cyclists against them (or stop pedestrians getting OFF the road) - they are meant to stop pedestrians wandering into the road but serve just as well to kill cyclists against or prevent pedestrians getting [b]onto[/b] the pavement.
Perhaps better public transport would help if people who shouldn't be driving had a realistic alternative.
Catch-22 - there's little point in improving public transport if no-one's using it. If you removed those who shouldn't be on the road, more people would use public transport, public transport would have more money and more demand.
this roundabout has no purpose anyway.... its on a 50 stretch and just suddenly appears if you don't know its there....
Nothing "suddenly appears" out of thin air unless it's a TARDIS or you're not paying sufficient attention / driving to the conditions.
[quote=johndoh ]Then there was the time I was a pedestrian walking down the pavement right outside the same schools and a woman mounted the kerb and drove fully on to the pavement (all four wheels) right in front of me as I was walking towards her as she (in her words) 'can't park on the zig zags' of the crossing she was seeking to avoid as she dropped off her kids at school.
Parking is definitely the thing to give people a sense of entitlement. Even people who's driving is otherwise fine, when challenged on parking inconsiderately (on the pavement more often than not), the stock response is something along the lines of "there's nowhere else to park".
Though that reminds me of a stand off I had when there was a building site off our road - artic lorry delivered something and I watched as it ran over the pavement to get onto site. Spotted it about to leave and went and stood on the corner of the pavement. "Can't get off site without driving over the pavement" - "well you'll have to stay on site then". Driver threatened to call the police on me for obstruction which I laughed at, but eventually they realised they could move some cones in order to do it legally.
There does seem to be some sort of cognitive disconnect here that nobody realises it's illegal to drive over the pavement, but everybody knows it's illegal to cycle on one.
nobody realises it's illegal to drive over the pavement
Surely you are allowed to drive on it for access?
Or are all residential driveways basically illegal?
You're allowed to cross the pavement to access a driveway. But parking with two wheels on the pavement shouldn't happen without a crane to lift your car into the pavement, otherwise you must have driven along it.
[quote=GrahamS ]Surely you are allowed to drive on it for access?
Yes, but only direct access to a property by driving on the bit immediately in front - can't remember the exact wording and CBA checking, but it's certainly made fairly clear. Not the bit on the opposite corner because your vehicle won't otherwise fit, or indeed most other pavement driving.
Nothing "suddenly appears" out of thin air unless it's a TARDIS or you're not paying sufficient attention / driving to the conditions.
It doesn't really answer the question as to why it exists though...
the whole point seems to be to slow the traffic down.... but why not just make it a 40 or 30 zone ???
The same with the NSL sign outside Clitheroe.... the river frequently has fog ... of course locals know this as well as the 90 degree bend but this road is used by lots of tourists.... the bridge often has pedestrians as well.
Anyone seeing the end of the 30 zone without knowing the road is far more likely to start accelerating than predict a dangerous bit of road right after the speed limit goes from 30 to effectively 60.... for the life of me I can't see why they didn't keep the speed limit at 30 mph for another 100' AND put up warning signs ....
My point really is all these things should be about improving SAFETY.... but in many cases they have nothing to do with safety....
An example I always respect the people at work speed restrictions but it can be pretty frustrating when actually noone is at work.....
Fresh in my mind is something that [b]seems completely unrelated[/b].. which is how bad we are at accurate signs/information... I was in Denmark all yesterday... passport control sign says EU/EFTA and Swiss citizens.... whereas Heathrow says "European passports" (There is no such thing as a "European Passport".... which might seem to be picking at straws but why can't we actually do it right)
(I was in Kiev a couple of weeks ago and sat next to a woman from Iceland...and she got very confused at Heathrow passport control.... when she ASKED she got told "Well Iceland is in the EU" (which is obviously incorrect but it was also the way the immigration offical seemed to be muttering "you stupid bint" and rolling his eyes)
Then I remembered same passport control being practically forcibly seperated from my kid... and forced through the electronic gates.... because I had a biometric passport and he is under 18.... whilst the 6yr old was told to queue up alone (and being pressured to just get on with it as i was holding people up)... then some snap decision by the supervisor and I was allowed to queue in the manual line with him
That got me all thinking that in the UK we are just really bad at rules and signs.... we have the police saying they will clamp down on cyclists who ride across a pavement and a transport minister saying "if you feel unsafe on a bit of road then ride on the pavement" and last year a bill almost went through to allow PSCO's to issue on the spot fines to kids riding on the pavement... (It went through the commons and the Lords stopped it ???)
We have pavements, footpaths etc. and the two are mixed up and not the same...
It's technically illegal to get in and out of a drivers seat on a road.... unless you leave the car in reverse.... (or it is an emergency services vehicle) etc. because there is a second you are not wearing a seatbelt (if I remember)
Tens of thousands of people are sent PCN's for illegal box junctions... yet the council know it's illegal and send them anyway...
http://www.logiclaw.co.uk/pages/Steve.html
(ps the steve part is not me)
I just find the whole thing vague.... surely it's fraud if a council issues a PCN when a court already decided their box junction is illegally marked...? and while we are at it what's with the NSL sign, its an invitation for misunderstanding.
Anyway /rantoff ... My point is I think most people will follow clear rules but if they feel the rule is vague, contradictory or unsafe then they not only don't try and obey THAT rule but others...
Not long ago I had a bus honking the horn and trying to force me to enter a box junction illegally (practically touching the car)... at some point you just wonder why bother?
Cameras and automatic fines really don't help... I'm not pulling over into a bus lane again just because a fire engine is approaching on the wrong side of the road ... (sorry.. got screwed over once)
outdated laws like the lighting up act.... how many people have reflectors on egg beaters ??? (and what is the point when you have lights) ... yet I'm perfectly allowed to use a how ever many lumen light on my bike that's way brighter than a car headlight so long as the LED's draw less than 110W..???
(or has that changed??)
Not to mention the [b]deliberately hidden speed signs[/b] where they change the speed limit and put the sign behind a tree then make thousands a month just catching people who are trying to obey the speed limit they can see.
My mum is a very slow driver ... a few years ago she got a ticket for doing 40 in a 30 zone... (along with tens of thousands of others) because the road was a [b]50 mph road they silently changed to a 100m stretch of 30 mph with sign hidden.[/b]...
Im pretty sure all speed signs have to be clearly visible, otherwise every person who has been done speeding would be able to get off.
Oh the police may not have sent you advance written notification of the speed limit change, but the signs would have been visible, assuming you are actually observing things correctly, not just wafting along the road not paying attention to your surroundings.
Familiarity breeds contempt etc etc.
Surely you are allowed to drive on it for access?Or are all residential driveways basically illegal?
Its more confusing than that.... It's legal in a car for access (there is some specific wording but it must be a motor vehicle from memory) BUT NOT A BIKE.... You also can't park next to any lowered pavement... (Even when the house has a big wall in front so the lowered pavement can't be used or its your own house)
the driver of the car (and Van the second time) has both executed a close pass and tried to undertake at the same time. In-****-credible.
I've had this - waited behind a bunch of cyclists until it was safe to overtake (going up twisty hill, perhaps 3 mins or so). Bloke tailgating me then decides to try to undertake me after I give the riders a full lane's wide to overtake. Quite mindblowing. First and only time I've lost my temper in a car. He was driving a people carrier with his young family on-board.