[Closed] driving and the use of brakes

I was always a confirmed "engine-braker" (must be my motorcycling background) but during advanced car driving instruction I was convinced that it's cheaper to replace brakes than engines 🙂

In reality, I try to ease off before I have to stop - so "none of the above".

I sometimes amuse myself by seeing how far I can drive without touching the brakes. Bad for the engine ? could be, but I've never heard that one before.

nothing worse than a brake happy guy on the motorway, tapping his brake every few minutes, instead of just leaving a bit more room

I normally plan to use the engine to slow down and only use the brakes towards the end of the deceleration unless it transpires that i misread the situation. Only do it because I think it flows a bit smoother.

Not to say that my way is right or wrong, that's just how I drive.

Jackie Stewart's book Principles of Performance Driving.

Chapter 4
The High Speed Technique.
"On the subject of gear changing techniques, I have always believed that you should take as little out of the car's transmission as possible that obviously means gentle, sympathetic changes when going up through the gears, but also by using the brakes to their maximum when slowing down, often missing gears while changing down through the box. Many people think that racing drivers go all the way down through the gears in a six-speed box like a machine gun. But that means you're taking on a juggling act: steering, operating the pedals, blipping the throttle and using the gear lever like a madman. I always chose to change down by jumping through gears.
........from sixth to fourth to second. That applies to wet or dry conditions, although you need to be careful how you do it in the wet, perhaps eliminating all the down changes, using the brakes to knock off your speed, and then finally slipping from sixth to first gear right at the end. Remember, you are not going to stop any faster by using the transmission. Brakes are made to stop a car, gears are primarily for acceleration. Deceleration was not part of the gearbox's original purpose: don't abuse it. "

Then again he was only F1 world champion 3 times.

its only bad for your clutch if you down shift to slow down. pre emptive slowing down in the same gear is fine for the engine/clutch.

I still only use my brakes.

Around town, use the brakes - better to have some lights come on to give those behind a chance of knowing what you're up to. Hasn't stopped 3 folks running into the back of me tho... 🙄

Not sure I would take Jackie Stewart's advice on anything - have you seen his trousers ?? Not to mention his hair...

I engine brake it's how I was taught to drive - I vaguely remember something about better control when the engine is powered rather than coasting. Try to keep it smooth rather than jumping on the brakes, keep a good distance and you don't need to.

Oh yes and of course tap to show some brake lights when slowing down, esp on the motorbike.

I beg to differ on bad for the clutch - drove the same van for 100k miles on the same clutch. Sample of one, I know.

Interesting that stuff from Jackie Stewert - I was taught to engine brake and always do - but tend to touch the brake pedal very lightly to illuminate the brake lights.

So say coming towards a roundabout on a 60 mph road I would double declutch down at least one gear at relatively high revs and then slow in that gear

Interesting

That's because like me TJ you're a two-wheeler. going hi-revs actually give yo more stability. Very noticeable on a 2 wheeler, not so much on a 2 tons box of steel with 4 wheels.

I've always used the engine and gearbox instead of the brakes, especially in snow or icy conditions, but that's mainly open road driving; in slower traffic I use the brakes, and coming up to junctions or whatever I use the gearbox to shed speed then use the brakes for final slowdown. It works for me, I've only had a car go sideways once on a very icy road.
But then, I'm not a racing driver, and don't try to drive like one.

I normally lift of the accelerator and slow down before using the brakes. I don't deliberately shift down to slow down.

My driving instructor always told me that you shouldn't need to do anything other than gentle braking (except in an emergency) as you will be looking ahead and thinking about what is going on and what you are needed to do.

Don't understand playstation drivers (only have go and stop) who floor it away from lights then brake hard at the next set. Maybe its the cycling influence, I'm reluctant to sprint away from lights and then brake when I can go a bit slower and not have to stop conserving energy).

Start thinking of brake lights as signals and you'll soon stop engine braking.

Back in the days of all round drum brakes that couldnt self adjust people used to be taught to engine brake, because if they didnt the car would always be in the garage getting the brakes adjusted. Now in the days of cars with all round disc brakes and everything self adjusting, that need has been taken out and transmission is the most expensive part to replace. There are also a shed load more cars on the roads so please tell each other what you're intending to do....

Macavity - Member
Jackie Stewart's book Principles of Performance Driving.

Hmmm, performance driving so not that relevant to driving around on the roads unless your some rude boy trying to race round every corner up and down through the gears.

Brakes to slow gears to go (so no changing down to slow down), but there was also a big emphasis on what they called 'acceleration sense' when I did my training, which I assume still applies. ([url= http://www.approved-driving-instructor-training.co.uk/speed-and-gear.php ]Good description of it here.[/url])

Brake lights as signals - of course they are, what numpty wouldn't adjust their speed when the car in front of them does. Not convinced that precludes engine braking - esp if you keep a good stopping distance and know what is behind you, as you know what mirrors are for. Nobody exclusively engine brakes that would be silly, slow it down then the brakes for the final approach.

Unless some eejit is following too close, then they get a few wee taps to make him back off.

That's not quite my point. It's easier to notice a car slowing down due to brake lights than it is due to it getting closer. Some people who are perfectly capable of driving only have good eyesight in one eye so arent all that great at judging distances.

Where's Smurfrat when you really need him?

I was told not to engine brake on my minbus-for-schools training.

One of the things that crossed my mind (apart from slowing a vehicle full of someone else's kids with no braking signal!) was that an empty long wheel base transit (with therefore a much greater proprtion of its overall weight near the front, but still with driving wheels at the back) using its rear wheels not front ones to brake was a potential recipe for slidy back end on the minibus, and brown trousers on its driver.

Mind you, quitea few years since then: are new trannys fwd now?

Engine breaking when I was doing my police advanced driving training was an automatic fail. Unless you were doing it to aid in winter type conditions to help with gradual breaking.

I think is a generational thing. My old man always uses engine braking slowing down where as I have always used the brakes because I was also taught that it is cheaper to replace brake pads than it is a new clutch.

Just for clarification, because I remember this getting argued about before.

When people say engine braking are they talking about

1) Lifting off the throttle and allowing the car to slow down as described in that link up there, or

2) Changing down a gear to slow down?

Because they aren't the same thing (a policeman told me the first is ok and the second is not).

I tend to change gear to slow down - so approaching a roundabout at 60 mph the first thing I will do is double declutch down a gear or even two.

Not saying its right but thats what I do.

Drac - thats interesting - I got as far as doing my driving assessment for the ambulance service and they asked me to change down a gear at 50 mph without jolting the vheicle

I was talking about number 2

Drac - thats interesting - I got as far as doing my driving assessment for the ambulance service and they asked me to change down a gear at 50 mph without jolting the vheicle

That would be a sustained gear change, to smoothly (and therefore stably) select a more appropriate gear, not to slow down.

So say coming towards a roundabout on a 60 mph road I would double declutch down at least one gear at relatively high revs and then slow in that gear

I was taught the same as Drac on my driving course but in reality I do use engine braking to some extent when driving at speed (particularly if it's icy or in snow) and will also on occasion go directly from 5th to 1st depending on circumstances and conditions.

Woody - anything I drive ( not that I drive a great deal these days) Its just my habit to use the engine to slow and to drop down the gears at high revs. as Juan says it might be habit from motorcycles. 60 mph in 3rd is still way off the redline in most vehicles.

Its about having he engine in its most responsive range and having it in the right gear to accelerate away

I even heel and toe downshifts sometimes if I want to change down further while braking.

As I say - I accept thqt it might be wrong / outdated practice. I did do a lot of miles on old british bikes with rubbish brakes

TJ - that's not double de-clutching 😉

More of Jackie Stewart
Chapter 6
"The Road Application.

Somehow many people think that the better the driver you are, the more gear changes you need to make, both up and down, not to mention changing down as many times as possible when you are braking for a stop sign or a round about. Not so! I'd rather use the brakes first because brake pads are cheaper to replace than gear boxes!

Roll into a corner under braking, even in fourth gear, and put it directly into second gear when the time is right, but not when the car is going to nose down and the rear wheels lock up momentarily while the revs shoot off the clock.

So don't rev the engine violently; change gear early and apply the brakes before down-shift smoothly. The braking comes before the gear changing on the way down, never the other way round. And the brake application again should be smooth and progressive. Before you have even so much as touched the brakes you must consider the way in which you come off the power. Don't come off the throtle pedal abruptly, but ease back on it gently.......
The same should apply when you press the brake. Do it gently and progressively and , before you have finished the braking motion, release the brake again very gently and progressivley, so that you don't feel it coming off.

.....a road car is more softly sprung and greater suspension movement , more roll, more dive and more squat. All the movements are exaggerated compared with a competition car."

The style of driving that only got JS 3 world titles was to be as economical and as smooth as possible. This was to use as little fuel as possible and to have as much control as possible. It was a style of driving that JS beleives is directly transferable to road driving.
As JS says there are no principles / techniques that he used that are different from the ones that he would use in normal road driving.
He also has an example of how his team mate Francios Cevert died in a crash; possibly by being in too low a gear, with the revs too high and lost control of the car.
The advantages of driving as the car was designed , using the brakes are many: all four wheels are breaking (sharing the tyre wear in a two wheel-drive car at least), Dual Mass fly wheels are not cheap, etc.

Double declutching, are you 85 TJ? Out of interest and for balance, have you noticed a higher proportion of maintenance bills on your vehicles or not?

Oh and my cars DSG so it does it's own thing

1) Lifting off the throttle and allowing the car to slow down as described in that link up there, or

2) Changing down a gear to slow down?

I guess if you take it down just the one gear to allow a gradual decelleration to continue to progress, without kicking the engine too high in the rev band, then it's not much of a problem, and you have more braking available if you need to come to a halt more quickly. In these situations I always have my foot on the brake pedal just a little to make sure the brake lights are on when doing this.

Woody - proper double declutching and heel and toe downshifts

M6TTF - I don't own cars - hire cars / vans so no idea if I am causing more wear.

I was definitely taught to use engine braking. but it was 30 odd years ago.

[u][b]Engine Braking[/b][/u] is where you leave it in a gear to use the engine's internal friction in order to slow the vehicle. On most cars this is perfectly fine and will not ruin your engine, load paths are reversed due to the direction of torque inverting, but this is factored into the design of all transmission components.

[b][u]Transmission Braking[/u][/b] is where you shift down through gears to keep engine speeds higher and therefore frictional losses higher, therefore slowing the car down faster. If you need to slow the car down faster than engine braking in one gear provides, use the brakes. Transmission braking puts large spikes of torsional vibration through the drivetrain, leading to shock loading of components (especially gear teeth with high contact pressures), and if repeated regularly will knacker some gearboxes and differentials. This may be less of an issue on modern cars, however if I was driving a car hard I still wouldn't do it, unnecessary.

My personal driving style when aiming for fuel economy is to try and judge every traffic light/roundabout/obstacle as a prediction, to try and get the car to roll to a near stop. It does help that I tend to drive when the roads are quiet, reducing me pissing off other drivers. I will still do it when roads are busy, just not to the same extent. It also can add fun into roundabouts on quiet days, attempting to not use brakes 😉

You have to brake in my car but then its an auto plus its also a diesel and they have next to no engine braking when lifting off as they don't generate a vaccum on the intake like a petrol engine. This is why you will catch up with a petrol car who has lifted off even though your are not pressing a pedal.
Smooth is the key and that includes braking and its not like pads don't last a long time in cars.

You can tell who the old people are on here 🙂

Back in the day when cars had drum brakes people were advised to use engine braking as brakes were a bit useless.

These days you should be taught to use the brakes and not gears to slow down (because they do a much better job than the engine, and avoids wear on the clutch etc), its what the Police do etc.

Double de-clutching is actually a waste of time in a modern car because of the syncro mech. Very satisfying if you get it right, but a waste of time..

The one thing I didnt know until a few years back was to actually leave the car in gear though for 2 reasons. Firstly it saves fuel, and if you are involved in a crash and foot comes off the brake pedal, then the engine will do some braking.

Fast driving/track/rally driving is different all together.

Engine [b]breaking[/b] when I was doing my police advanced driving training was an automatic fail.

Jackie Stewart's book Principles of Performance Driving.

Just remember Jackie doesn't have a driving license and never has had one (if I recall correctly). All his (legal) driving has been on the track.

Brakes to slow, gears to go! The only reason racers downshift the way they do is so that they are in the right gear to accelerate hard out of the next corner.

Double declutching - clutch down, gears into neutral, clutch up, blip the throttle, clutch down, into next gear, accelerate.

Totally poinless on a synchro mesh gearbox. Its only usefull on a crash box, the clutch up in neutral blip the throttle bit gets the lay shaft ( i think) up to the same speed as the main shaft so that the gears mesh smoothly.

I look at braking as a waste of energy, you're converting the fuel you've just used to accelerate into heat at the brake pads. Accelerate less, look ahead and match your speed to the conditions. If you see the traffic slowing up ahead, ease off the throttle, so many people seem to tear up to a red traffic light and slam the brakes on at the last minute.

You have to brake in my car but then its an auto plus its also a diesel and they have next to no engine braking when lifting off as they don't generate a vaccum on the intake like a petrol engine. This is why you will catch up with a petrol car who has lifted off even though your are not pressing a pedal.

What utter tosh, who told you that? Like for like, a diesel engine produces far more engine braking, due to the much higher compression ratio. The reason you have to brake in your car is all to do with the autobox, not the engine.

What utter tosh, who told you that? Like for like, a diesel engine produces far more engine braking, due to the much higher compression ratio. The reason you have to brake in your car is all to do with the autobox, not the engine.

Errrr, no? Sory t omake you sound a bit thick but think about what the compression ratio is
a) there to achieve
b) how it is achieved
c) where all the energy used compressing the air goes when the piston goes down again.

Part of the reasons why diesel is so effiient is the engine doesnt have to suck air through a restriction, it always gets a full cylinder (or more in a turbo) of air. When you close the 'throttle', which doesnt realy exist, there isnt anything to throttle [i.e. in the litteral cense contract/restrict the opeining] on a diesel, all it does is stop the fuel. The engine therefore takes a full charge or air, squashes it and recovers most of that energy when it expands again.

A petrol engine when the throttle is closes pulls on a prety high vacum (the throttle has closed off the air supply) so it does a lot of work drawing anyth air in, this warms up so the energy recovered sucking the piston up again is less than that used to draw it into the cylinder.

To get arroudn this some old diesels have whats called a jake brake which raises the decompression cam at th top of the compression stroke on the on a diesel to let the air out and stop the energy being recovered. These were banned as they sound like a machine gun.

Slight hijack, but, when you've actually stopped (and I'm addressing the seeming majority of drivers here) could you release the brakes and let the lights go out. Put the handbrake on if you are going to be stopped for oooh, I don't know, more than a second. They are amazingly dazzling up close in the dark, especially on a crowded dual carriageway, and mask the brake lights of others who are still slowing.