[Closed] Doorstep God Botherers.

Religion simply has to change, evolve even, to accommodate how we've adapted and changed, if it is to survive at all.

The problem for the devout is that man on man loving (and oh so many other things) is (allegedly) an offence to god/the big man/governing entity. "Lets change all that because those are unpopular views in our current society" that's not going to sit well with the hardcore. You're either ignoring what your chosen deity commanded undermining your religion and leaving yourself open to all sorts of criticism or you're just paying lip service and holding on to those nasty values inside your withered dessicated little soul.
Those who genuinely can pick and choose what bits they like from their religion I'd ask them to look at that, are really following X religion? Really? Why not drop the title, distance yourself from it and follow your own code/beliefs. I've nowt against people believing what they want, my beef is with organised religions who gang up, get themselves a hierarchy (I'm considerably holier than yow) then press their beliefs on everyone else, including and especially the "you're all sinners and are going to suffer for it in the afterlife" comments.

Ok, I've talked to enough people on the street to know that talking about specific sins is a red herring. People will argue for hours about getting drunk and their right to drink for example, but even if you convince them biblicaly that getting drunk is against the will of God, are they any closer to bending the knee and confessing they are a sinner? a lot more would have to change in their lives than staying sober.

The bible does clearly say that God is not pleased with homosexual sex, as He is also not pleased with those who fornicate (put it about). Am I homophobic? no, I respect and will befriend someone regardless of their sexuality. Would I force biblical living upon someone who does not believe? no. Would I advise a genuine seeker of God about what is morally right or wrong? Yes. I would be on dodgy ground if I changed the bibles teachings to make life easier for myself or anyone else.

The bible does clearly say that God is not pleased with homosexual sex, as He is also not pleased with those who fornicate (put it about). Am I homophobic? no, I respect and will befriend someone regardless of their sexuality. Would I force biblical living upon someone who does not believe? no. Would I advise a genuine seeker of God about what is morally right or wrong?

So you are homophobic, but in a nice way. I think you should teach God about morals rather than trying to tell gay people they are sinners.

 

about what is morally right or wrong? Yes

rather than trying to tell gay people they are sinners.

I don't know how to be any more clear than I have already been. I don't single homosexuals out, 'all have sinned' as I have already said, we all come short on Gods standard. We all need to repent regardless of our sexuality. And for that reason I treat all people equally. Homosexuals are not in 'greater need' of salvation than anyone else.

And for that reason I treat all people equally. Homosexuals are not in 'greater need' of salvation than anyone else.

I get that part. But you still think homosexuality is a sin. That makes you homophobic. The good book is wrong.

getting drunk is against the will of God

Then why did he give us beer?

I respect and will befriend someone regardless of their sexuality.
...
The bible does clearly say that God is not pleased with homosexual sex
...
Would I advise a genuine seeker of God about what is morally right or wrong? Yes.

Would you advise all your gay friends that they were being immoral, then?

It's really not a difficult question, but it's really not one with wiggle room either. Either you believe that homosexuality is wrong or you don't. Which is it?

You've said yourself that homosexuality makes god "not best pleased" and you're a self-confessed evangelist. So either you preach that homosexuality is bad, or you cherry-pick the bits of your religion that you want to talk to about. Or you disagree with the Bible, of course, but that's not the impression you're giving.

People like Adam and his husband are an affront to God and a crime against nature, aren't they.

Cougar, I wouldn't strike up a conversation about homosexual sex being sinful, no. In fact this thread proves that its not Christians that bring the subject up. You have had to corner me to get my thoughts because its really not on my agenda to preach about any specific sin. Its enough to say that we all sin, and that's why we need salvation.

If you ask me what the bible says about any particular subject, I'll tell you what it says, but that's hardly ramming it down your throat is it?

To be homophobic would surely mean I show a fear of, or a dislike to homosexuals, which I don't, I treat them equally. As already said the bible also says that sex outside of marriage is wrong too, do I alienate myself from everyone who does? I would lead a pretty lonely life if I did, and I wouldn't have many people to share the gospel with either. Who did Jesus speak to and choose to spend his time with?

You have had to corner me to get my thoughts because its really not on my agenda

I've had to corner you to get your thoughts because you've been evasive for a day and a half ever since I first asked, and still haven't answered. 'Treating homosexuals like all the other sinners' doesn't really get to the nub of the matter I'm afraid. I'm not interested in what the bible says, I'm interested in what [i]you[/i] think. What is [i]your[/i] view on homosexuality?

For instance, are you in favour of gay marriage? Equal rights for gay partnerships? Do you think it's ok to be gay so long as you don't have sex? Do you think people can be cured of gayness? Is it the work of the devil?

Who did Jesus speak to and choose to spend his time with?

Twelve male friends and a prostitute, if memory serves.

this thread proves that its not Christians that bring the subject up

I appreciate the futility in discussing concepts like "proof" with a theist, but a single conversation doesn't "prove" anything, it's just a single example.

But anyway. I can't think why Christians wouldn't want to bring up subjects that might make them look like prejudiced bigots, can you?

Cougar - To be fair to PhilAmon, he hasn't shown the slightest sign of being a homophobe. I'd imagine one or two of my friends (not Christian, just a tad conservative), who are outwardly very friendly to my other gay pals harbour some unease with homosexuality. Lets not go accusing people of being guilty of thought crimes, after all it is how you treat other people that is important.

I think PhilAmon is being very diplomatic I do admire him for being prepared to enter into this debate totally outnumbered and out gunned.

But I think he is using diplomacy to side step the question.

So can I ask it in a different way

Do you think that in order to enter the kingdom of heaven does AdamW have to admit he is wrong and say he is sorry about his behaviour ?

Sorry AdamW for making it personal but we have been reminded that evangelists are real people with feelings so I think its only fair to remind them that their views can upset real people with feelings too.

Also you still have not answered my question

"Why does god want us to praise him ?"

To be homophobic would surely mean I show a fear of, or a dislike to homosexuals, which I don't, I treat them equally

You are enabling these spokespersons to say shit like that.

If your preacher makes comments about certain lifestyles being an affront to your god do you stand up and say "actually I think that kind of thing is OK so can I opt out of that one?" or do you say "amen" but have your fingers crossed?

I'm trying not to single you or your religion out for this but you are the one saying "yes the good book says it's wrong but I don't really mind either way". You know what the party line is and you're still a member.

I should be clarify.

I'm not singling out PhilAmon here, and I too applaud him for stepping up to redress the balance. But if you're an evangelist, you don't get to only talk exclusively to people who don't talk back. Sorry.

From his comments on here, it would appear that he holds prejudiced views either because a book has told him to, or because a book has told him it's ok to. He might not, of course, but in a couple of pages of "diplomacy" he's not denied it yet. Seems it'd be a simple thing to clear up, to me.

Isn't evangelism pretty much wholly about challenging inappropriate beliefs and behaviour, after all?

yes it like Singlespeeding but choosing to use gears and being clean shaven

it is actually called an abomination and not just a sin
what else is called an abomination inthe book?

C'mon fellas, I'm about the least tolerant to the religious you will find on here but you are being a bit mean-spirited. You are performing acrobatics to try and out Phil as a disgusting homophobe. He has said he isnt so leave it at that please.

"gays/coveters of neighbours arses/bacon sandwich preparation staff/etc are nasty people and I speak for several thousand/million of my flock".

But they don't. Yes, some are more extreme but the problem of homosexuality in the church isn't an issue of how to keep people out but rather how to accept people in. The noisy folks such as WBC get the press though

you are the one saying "yes the good book says it's wrong but I don't really mind either way"

I don't think that's quite what he said. He said that the book says it's wrong, just like all the other sins, he said that he doesn't speak out about it for fear of alienation. I may have missed it, but I don't recall him expressing a personal opinion at all as to whether he 'minds' or not.

Which, I think, is an important distinction. Because treating everyone equally is laudable, but it's hypocritical if you're doing it whilst secretly stood there thinking "yes, but you're going to hell anyway unless you repent your sinful ways" and are just too chickenshit to say anything.

And if you [i]don't [/i]really think that, are you sure you've got the right religion for you there?

C'mon fellas, I'm about the least tolerant to the religious you will find on here but you are being a bit mean-spirited. You are performing acrobatics to try and out Phil as a disgusting homophobe. He has said he isnt so leave it at that please.

Totally totally wrong, I want him to see his religion for the disgusting homophobic institution that it is and that's very different.

I don't think that's quite what he said.

And if you don't really think that, are you sure you've got the right religion for you there?

Buts that never been a problem has it. The verbal dexterity and cynical hypocrisy used by many believers to only accept the "nice" bits is well known. If that fails you can always fall back on the old "its a metaphor" line.

leffeboy - Member

But they don't.

I wanted to post the clip from Black Books where the Jehovah Witnesses come round and he invites them in to avoid his tax return but channel 4 have blocked its content boooooo hisssss

DONK - that is of course true but that is also true of any organisation that you are a member of. We aren't all the same and it would be unreasonable to flounce each time you disagree 😉

As for lobbying, that may be true but the government also directly seek the opinion of a wide range of faith groups and use it to influence policy.

but the government also directly seek the opinion of a wide range of faith groups and use it to influence policy

We aren't all the same and it would be unreasonable to flounce each time you disagree

<edit>cougar's analogy is better 🙂

We aren't all the same and it would be unreasonable to flounce each time you disagree

It's not quite "the WI is serving Garibaldi biscuits and I hate Garibaldis" though is it; it's more like joining the BNP and then claiming not to be racist because you don't really bother with all the "send 'em all back where they came from" bits.

I agree with DONK

You would not join the Clu Clux Clan and say you like the social scene and costumes but you don't agree with burning black people on crosses.

To paraphrase it only takes good men to do nothing for bad stuff to happen !!!

In order to go to heaven, we have to confess our sins, accept we are in the wrong, and accept that Jesus, who lived a righteous life, chose to die as a criminal in our place. We have to make Him lord of our lives and live for Him instead of ourselves. This decision will affect every part of our lives.

I say this because it’s important to stress that it’s not Adams homosexuality that means he has to repent, if he was a heterosexual he would still need to repent, but yes, I believe that he would have to be willing to put this behind him and live in line with Gods will for him.

I have heard the testimony of a man who was gay before he became a Christian, he asked God to change him and that change really happened in his life. He confessed himself that he was no longer gay. This is not the same thing as denying what’s inside; it’s about being changed from within.

Now I appreciate that Adam is in a relationship, that he loves the man he is with, and that this would be a huge sacrifice for him. But can I also say that he wouldn't be alone. I know people who have had to break off relationships when coming to the Lord. Part of being in the will of God is being with the person that He wants you to be with. When I became a Christian I accepted what the bible said about being 'unequally yoked' with an unbelieving partner, and knew that because I could only be with a Christian girl, my chances of finding love were greatly reduced, I may never have married at all. But I was willing to pay that price if I had to. I believe God has honoured that decision and since blessed me with a wonderful Christian girl. But the decisions we have to make to follow the lord are real, and sometimes very difficult. We are told in the bible to think about the building costs before we start to build.

I hope you don’t mind me using you as an example Adam, I mean you no offence at all, I realise you are a real person with a real life.

the Clu Clux Clan

The CCC? Is that the moderate branch of the KKK? 😆

hoooboy

Now I appreciate that Adam is in a relationship, that he loves the man he is with, and that this would be a huge sacrifice for him.

I believe he is married. You would have him divorce the man he loves to follow your religion?? 😯

God has honoured that decision and since blessed me with a wonderful Christian girl. But the decisions we have to make to follow the lord are real, and sometimes very difficult

So presumably if she decides she doesn't want to be Christian any more, or wishes to move to a more moderate church, you'd have to divorce her?

Yes yes, I get it, all religious people are stupid, or evil, or possibly both. Having said that, lets look outside the cosy little part of cyberspace that is STW, and try to imagine how things are in the real world for a little while, eh? I was raised as a catholic, and up until getting a divorce from my first wife when she decided she preferred sharing a bed with my best mate than sharing one with me, used to attend church on a fairly regular basis. Now I'm remarried, there are certain aspects of my faith that are closed to me, but on the whole, I can live with that. I've got four brilliant kids, the eldest of whom is gay. Now according to some of the posters on here, I should be busily invoved in either shunning him or attempting to 'cure' him of his sinful ways. Guess what? I really dont care what anybody, least of all the bloke in the daft hat, says. I love him completely, the fact that he is gay is immaterial to me as long as he is happy and safe. Please, stop using a belief in God as a stick to beat people with - organised religion has pretty much got the monopoly on that already. If winning an argument on the internet is that important to you, crack on, just try to remember that not all people that believe in God are stupid or homophobic.
(edit) - I wasnt aiming that comment at you phil, you appear to be taking enough of a shoeing without me making it worse. I'm just trying to say that I personally believe you can have faith without wanting to 'change' other peoples sexuality or life choices.

PhilAmon, you seem like a pretty nice guy and I can tell you are trying not to offend, but I think its a shame as I truly feel you have been misguided.

I do realise that you probably feel the same about me.

AdamW, love whoever you want and feel no shame you are doing nothing wrong. One day we will be amazed people actually believed this stuff !!!

just try to remember that not all people that believe in God are stupid or homophobic.

and yeah I suppose kind of asking if you are OK with that.

It's a tricky one alright, you might not like who ferguson has got in the back 4 at the moment but you don't suddenly switch to supporting city cause you don't agree with his views. but of course where religion is concerned it's not quite so frivolous.

I'm just trying to say that I personally believe you can have faith without wanting to 'change' other peoples sexuality or life choices.

Isn't it Catholicism that states that it's ok to be gay because you have no control over it, but if you act on it then it's a sin? How do you consolidate that with your faith?

Genuine question, not a troll. What do you do as a good Catholic when your son brings home his boyfriend?

No I'm not ok with it D0NK, much as I'm not ok with the ongoing cover up of paedophilia within the church. Why do you think I would be? This does nothing to diminish my faith in God, Just the evil b******s that use religion as a means to their own ends.
(edit) I ask him if he wants a cup of tea and give him a bollocking for hogging the remote control - why would I do anything else?

This does nothing to diminish my faith in God

Wait a minute, Adam's a man? And Barnsleymitch has a thousand children? Truly, something or other is very right, or wrong, or something.

I have many, many children crikey. In fact, you're probably heavy with the fruit of my loins just by reading this... 😀

I ask him if he wants a cup of tea and give him a bollocking for hogging the remote control - why would I do anything else?

Heh, good answer. (-:

I guess where my confusion lies is, you said you were Catholic, but re-reading, you said you were "raised Catholic." According to the Catholic faith, the homosexual act is "an abomination" punishable by death, is it not? Has your "faith" changed denominations?

[img] [/img]

mitch and phil.... i'd just like to say even though i may not hold the same faith as you i sure do respect you for your input on this thread 🙂

now gaze upon my photo and tell me where the blood rushes to 😉

LOL, I can't afford any more!

I thing the interesting thing, probably the most interesting thing from this is to see how religion actually works at a personal level; it's very easy (...and I've done it in the past) to use it as a blanket pejorative label, and not see the person or people behind it.

Nice one chaps..

That's got to chafe, surely to goodness!

As I said cougar, since getting a divorce, I'm not much of a catholic anymore, but I still believe in God, and still go to church on occasion. There are aspects of catholic doctrine that I cant and wont agree with, but as I said, I manage to get on with what I feel is a happy and fulfilling life. I know that's a bit wooly, but I didnt post on this thread to have a theological argument, just to try and say that not all religious folk are inherently bad. I'm not trying to evade your question, I'm just not sure I'm able to debate this issue on a high enough level.
(edit) Damn you consequence! Damn you and your bear appreciation sketches!

I thing the interesting thing, probably the most interesting thing from this is to see how religion actually works at a personal level

Agreed. So often when we ask questions we receive rhetoric about "what the Bible says" rather than "what I think / believe" which is why I was pressing PhilAmon.