– quality journalists could do that, and make that the story without having to bullshit figures themselves, which leaves them open to the justifiable accusation of being #fakenews
Most have given up as he won't even be able to justify it or have working. You can't blame them for Trump not caring about the truth.
The wording of the NATO 2% was a classic, he claimed there was a problem, battered leaders over it, turned up got the same agreement (with a non binding maybe a bit quicker) and claimed he had fixed it all and then suggested 4% (more than the US spends) which nobody agreed to.
Entirely meaningless stuff.
Again,need to catch up on the inside the NYT from last night but it gives a lot of insight into what quality journalism looks like and how it gets way harder to keep up with somebody who not only lies but just makes stuff up or repeats claims he has seen on TV.
I don't get you @ninfan - I really don't.
What is it about Donald you find so endearing? Is it the lies, misinformation that he spreads? Is it the turning a blind eye to terrorism?
What is it about Donald you find so endearing? Is it the lies, misinformation that he spreads? Is it the turning a blind eye to terrorism?
The fact that he winds the lefties up so much that they become the very embodiment of that they criticise.
”free speech.... but not if you say something we don’t like”
”tolerance for diversity.... as long as you agree with us”
”violence is unacceptable... punch a Nazi in the face”
“Mysoginistic people who demean women should not be allowed high office.... oh, except Justin Trudeau, cause it was years ago, and maybe it was a mistake, oh, and Al Frankenstein, ‘cause it was a joke, oh, and let’s give Roman Polanski an award cause he’s a brilliant director”
“body shaming is bad.... Trump is a disgusting fat ugly monster”
etc.
The fact that he winds the lefties up so much that they become the very embodiment of that they criticise.
So for that you're more than happy to turn a blind eye to his racism, short sighted policies, climate change denail, sexism, & his general **** everyone else that is Donald Trump attitide?
The fact that he winds the lefties up so much that they become the very embodiment of that they criticise.
That's it? Nothing to do with him then?
It would seem so.
So on the plus side winding lefties up and on the negative side environmental disaster, ruining the economy, collusion with Russia, don't even mention the middle East, distancing America from all of its allies, car crash that is immigration, bringing the position of president into disrepute, sexism, racism, anti science and let's not even mention the nepotism. Fairly balanced I'd say I see why you like him.
It certainly is an art to make claiming hypocrisy seem so desperate.
Anyway tough day today, how do you deal with a leader who's government attacked you election infrastructure and is very strongly linked with a chemical/biological attack on one of your allies?
Mr. Putin proposed the meeting in March during a phone call with Mr. Trump, and American officials say the Russian leader desperately needs Washington to ease sanctions that have squeezed his country’s economy and oligarchs.
American observers on both sides of the political aisle fear that Mr. Trump, who dislikes policy briefings and has said he needed no preparation for the meeting, could be an easy mark for manipulation by Mr. Putin, a former intelligence agent whom Mr. Trump has refused to criticize directly.
So far he has blamed the US for the bad relationship, on the basis that they investigated and caught the Russian agents.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/16/world/europe/trump-putin-summit-helsinki.html
Is America still getting 100% of it's President needs supplied by Russia?
Great call by the Finns there
https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/300-billboards-outside-helsinki-finland-20180716-p4zrqg.html
I’m not sure Ninfan likes the Donald so much as he likes taking the contrary view to the norm. Some could call this being the devils advocate, others would call it trolling.
I don’t think we ever really see a real actual personal position from Ninfan as such. I’m not even sure he has one, other than ‘argue’.
I don’t think we ever really see a real actual personal position from Ninfan as such.
Pro Israel
Pro Guns
Seem to be the common ones that bleed through, that and for being outspoken and offensive as hiding behind free speech
Dislike of Islam up there too.
Naughty Russia messing in the middle east! Naughty Russia trying to rig elections! Naughty Russia using chemical weapons!
Now the POTUS must tell him never to do these things again or else.
So as @ninfan seems so eager to align himself with Donald Trump, is it fair to suggest that he/she themselves are a sexist, racist, anti science, terrorist apologist?
Phew.... Putin just confirmed that they had nothing to do with the hackers or people doing stuff in the US election, Donald agrees too.
Listening to the Donald's speech here not sure if he bothered to listen to what Putin was saying there though.
A US President dumps on his allies, lies and misrepresents, deliberately misleads and covers up his intentions by sleight-of-hand distractions.
He is happy (as in today's meeting with Putin) talking vacuosities with dictators and seems to think that the future is deals done in closed rooms between 'strong' men without the inclusion of anything that could publicise what was agreed...
So what is going on here? How about this:
Fintan O'Toole wrote this yesterday in The Irish Times:
“To grasp what is going on in the world right now, we need to reflect on two things. One is that we are in a phase of trial runs. The other is that what is being trialled is fascism – a word that should be used carefully but not shirked when it is so clearly on the horizon. Forget “post-fascist” – what we are living with is pre-fascism.
It is easy to dismiss Donald Trump as an ignoramus, not least because he is. But he has an acute understanding of one thing: test marketing. He created himself in the gossip pages of the New York tabloids, where celebrity is manufactured by planting outrageous stories that you can later confirm or deny depending on how they go down. And he recreated himself in reality TV where the storylines can be adjusted according to the ratings. Put something out there, pull it back, adjust, go again.
Fascism doesn’t arise suddenly in an existing democracy. It is not easy to get people to give up their ideas of freedom and civility. You have to do trial runs that, if they are done well, serve two purposes. They get people used to something they may initially recoil from; and they allow you to refine and calibrate. This is what is happening now and we would be fools not to see it.
One of the basic tools of fascism is the rigging of elections – we’ve seen that trialled in the election of Trump, in the Brexit referendum and (less successfully) in the French presidential elections. Another is the generation of tribal identities, the division of society into mutually exclusive polarities.
Fascism does not need a majority – it typically comes to power with about forty percent support and then uses control and intimidation to consolidate that power. So it doesn’t matter if most people hate you, as long as your forty percent is fanatically committed. That’s been tested out too.
And fascism of course needs a propaganda machine so effective that it creates for its followers a universe of “alternative facts” impervious to unwanted realities. Again, the testing for this is very far advanced.
But when you’ve done all this, there is a crucial next step, usually the trickiest of all. You have to undermine moral boundaries, inure people to the acceptance of acts of extreme cruelty. Like hounds, people have to be blooded. They have to be given the taste for savagery.
Fascism does this by building up the sense of threat from a despised out-group. This allows the members of that group to be dehumanised. Once that has been achieved, you can gradually up the ante, working through the stages from breaking windows to extermination.
People have to be given the taste for savagery. Fascism does this by building up the sense of threat from a despised out-group.
It is this next step that is being test-marketed now. It is being done in Italy by the far-right leader and minister for the interior Matteo Salvini. How would it go down if we turn away boatloads of refugees? Let’s do a screening of the rough-cut of registering all the Roma and see what buttons the audience will press. And it has been trialled by Trump: let’s see how my fans feel about crying babies in cages. I wonder how it will go down with Rupert Murdoch.
To see, as most commentary has done, the deliberate traumatisation of migrant children as a “mistake” by Trump is culpable naivety. It is a trial run – and the trial has been a huge success. Trump’s claim last week that immigrants “infest” the US is a test-marketing of whether his fans are ready for the next step-up in language, which is of course “vermin”.
And the generation of images of toddlers being dragged from their parents is a test of whether those words can be turned into sounds and pictures. It was always an experiment – it ended (but only in part) because the results were in.
And the results are quite satisfactory. There is good news on two fronts. First, Rupert Murdoch is happy with it – his Fox News mouthpieces outdid themselves in barbaric crassness: making animal noises at the mention of a Down syndrome child, describing crying children as actors. They went the whole swinish hog: even the brown babies are liars. Those sobs of anguish are typical of the manipulative behaviour of the strangers coming to infest us – should we not fear a race whose very infants can be so devious?
Second, the hardcore fans loved it: Fifty-eight percent of Republicans are in favour of this brutality. Trump’s overall approval ratings are up to 42.5 per cent.
This is greatly encouraging for the pre-fascist agenda. The blooding process has begun within the democratic world. The muscles that the propaganda machines need for defending the indefensible are being toned up. Millions and millions of Europeans and Americans are learning to think the unthinkable.
So what if those black people drown in the sea? So what if those brown toddlers are scarred for life? They have already, in their minds, crossed the boundaries of morality. They are, like Macbeth, “yet but young in deed”. But the tests will be refined, the results analysed, the methods perfected, the messages sharpened. And then the deeds can follow."
Hitler is dead, but the bitch who bore him is in heat again.
That tweet 😮
So Trumps believes that nice Mr Putin over the FBI!!!!
Yep, only bothered with the first question of the press conference, long and complex from a Russian Journalist to Trump all bout his Russia Germany Energy comments, including a nice quote that Russia sold gas to Boston over the winter. Usual fumble answer, off topic, tangents and away to somewhere else SQUIRREL!!
Good post woppit
Pretty amazing that President of the USA just said that he trusts his BFF Putin over the FBIs report into Russia hacking the election.
In normal times this would be a shocking moment
I bet this is going down a storm with the US security devices 😳
Trump criticises and ignores his own intelligence agencies and then goes into a two hour unrecorded private meeting with Sputin.
What did they discuss? What agreements were made?
One President avoids scrutiny by his 4th Estate whilst the other controls his.
Clear and present danger.
Fintan O’Toole
Fintan O'Toole is dead right. Political systems (including democracy) are transient. Brexit, Trump and Putin are the harbingers of a return to the system my father's generation fought and died to eliminate.
Donald Trump’s press conference performance in Helsinki rises to & exceeds the threshold of “high crimes & misdemeanors.” It was nothing short of treasonous. Not only were Trump’s comments imbecilic, he is wholly in the pocket of Putin. Republican Patriots: Where are you???
Tweet by former CIA director John Brennan. Situation is completely bonkers.
Brexit, Trump and Putin are the harbingers of a return to the system my father’s generation fought and died to eliminate.
It was defeated then, and it will be again.
Well for a triple bill
The Post
All The Presidents Men
Frost Nixon
How it should go...
He seems to have done something he was unable to do until now.
United us politics, against him
I don't think Nin is a racist, or a sexist, or actually even a Trump supporter, tbh.
I think, rather sadly, he's just ended up taking on that mantle to help himself through his rather sad, monotonous, and by the sounds of it, rather friendless, life.
Plenty of the "deep state" or "conspiracy" nutters are just sad, lonely people, who jump on the bandwagon, ANY BANDWAGON, just to feel part of something.......
Everything that happened in Helsinki today only reinforces that conclusion. My fellow Americans, we are in trouble and we have some big decisions to make today. This was a historic moment in the entire history of the United States.
There is overwhelming evidence that our president, for the first time in our history, is deliberately or through gross negligence or because of his own twisted personality engaged in treasonous behavior — behavior that violates his oath of office to “preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
Trump vacated that oath today, and Republicans can no longer run and hide from that fact. Every single Republican lawmaker will be — and should be — asked on the election trail: Are you with Trump and Putin or are you with the C.I.A., F.B.I. and N.S.A.?
Listening to Trump, it was as if Franklin Roosevelt had announced after Pearl Harbor: “Hey, both sides are to blame. Our battleships in Hawaii were a little provocative to Japan — and, by the way, I had nothing to do with the causes for their attack. So cool it.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/16/opinion/trump-and-putin-vs-america.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/16/opinion/trump-and-putin-vs-america.html
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Nothing more to add
It was defeated then, and it will be again.
I would prefer it not to get to the point where millions die once again to defeat it.
I would prefer it not to get to the point where millions die once again to defeat it.
We shouldn't have been so weak as to allow this to happen again. Liberal democracy through its own nature has allowed this scum to float to the top once again, "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it" the biggest mistake.
To defend liberal democracy you are now going to have to be illiberal to those who use it as a cover to destroy it.
Well my head was spinning about the sun interview but this has pretty much left me shocked.
This is dangerous.
We are well and truly through the looking glass now. 😳
So, & stop me if I’m wrong, but ninny’s support of Trump is down to the fact that it winds up folks he doesn’t like? Somehow gaining satisfaction from somewhere along the way...........
How terribly fing tragic, he must be an individual full of nothing but bile & hate to gain pleasure from the actions of a deliberately antagonistic & devise narcissist such as Trump.
I’d feel sorry for him, maybe some pity too, but he probably wouldn’t be able to understand where such feelings spring from.
Over to you laddo, tell us you have thought this through & it isn’t just hate driving you.
Show us you still have some humanity left in you..
Either ignore him or argue with him but dont make assumptions/ jibes about his personal life it makes you look bad.
As I said about Donald:
he winds the lefties up so much that they become the very embodiment of that which they criticise.
you can see it in the mindset above, unable to rationalise someone they can’t intimidate into agreeing with them with their superficial veneer of moral superiority, the inner nastiness gradually creeps to the surface until they reveal their true character...
He seems to have wound up Fox news now which is saying something. It is one thing winding up lefties, political opponents, people from other countries, or even the press, but his disdain for his own intelligence services which he oversees is something else.
his disdain for his own intelligence services which he oversees is something else.
The same intelligence services that Hoover turned into what was essentially his own secret police force in order to undermine everyone from political activists to gays, opposition politicians, the civil rights movement and sitting presidents?
Disdain? Trump has barely touched the surface! Harry S Truman noted:
"We want no Gestapo or secret police. the FBI is tending in that direction. They are dabbling in sex-life scandals and plain blackmail… Edgar Hoover would give his right eye to take over, and all congressmen and senators are afraid of him."
Now, regards Donald directly - what we see here is, once again, the usual suspects running around like headless chickens screaming the sky is falling on the basis of a press conference between the leaders of two countries that have quietly been locked in conflict since the end of WW2, both interfering with each other.
A few months ago the same voices screaming about Nuclear War with North Korea. The media in the UK and Europe said Trump was going to start WW3 with the fat North Korean lad. Has Trump started WW3? No.
Nothing new is it? The (kgb funded?) CND/Atomkraft Nein Danke hysteria saw a pretty much identical reactions to Reagan in his early years, ie. the run up to deployment of Pershing II & Cruise - Reagan was a warmonger, genocidal maniac, an existential threat to world peace, etc. - but look what happened next... unprecedented arms limitation treaties, "tear down this wall", glasnost and the collapse of the SU.
Imagine todays hysterical media pool covering Reagan's glad-handing and back slapping with Gorbachov at the reykjavik summit, despite the downing of KAL 007. Imagine the screaming and wailing at programmes like Brilliant Pebbles and SDI... but look what they ultimatley delivered.
What you need to do is separate out the rhetoric from reality and aim questions at the things that really happen, rather than being up in arms every time Trump is on TV or sends a tweet. OK, he's implementing a simple protectionist policy a la Calvin Coolidge, but haven't the political left been telling us for years that free trade and multinational corporations were destroying both society and the planet? US decisions ripple across the globe as they are the only super power we have at the moment. His policy is US first, and good on him for doing it - he is expecting NATO countries to financially step up to the plate, again, about bloody time, its the inevitable disengagement and cutting of the apron strings that the Marshall Plan was ultimately introduced to deliver - a prosperous and stable Europe that could look after itself.
This is an economic war, not a guns, tanks and planes war. It always has been about money really. The US making friends with Russia? Why the hell not? In fact its just another indication that the US is happy to withdraw from the European theatre and let Europe take centre stage in looking after itself as intended. The question is will Europe successfully step in to fill the void or descend once again into infighting. The tensions in macroeconomic policy within the EU remain high, Germany and France continue to dominate while economies like Greece and Spain are barely holding it together, well meaning but ultimately flawed Immigration policies are leading to internal tensions and infighting within the EU. Poland, Hungary and Italy have all had enough of being ordered around by the Germans and are beginning to rebel politically, (just the start of the reasons we are better off out)
Th usuals may not like Trump, but the fact is that he's getting things done on a macro scale (oh, FFS, the screeching we'll no doubt hear on this statement from the usuals we'll hear now - where's the wall? tell me one thing he's done? whinge, scream, whine etc.) but, frankly, the growth figures in the US economy (and the slowing down of growth in the Chinese economy) dont lie
Brexit, Trump and Putin are the harbingers of a return to the system my father’s generation fought and died to eliminate
Communists?
Dont forget that a lot of Europe was rather keen on fascism and it didn't exactly go without a fight, in fact without both Russia and America I imagine it would have been encamped in Europe for a long time.
@ninfan - I don't think anyone ever accused Reagan of being in bed with the Russians, in fact, quite the reverse.
There seems to be some quite striking evidence that Trump may have been colluding, see for example the indictment against Marina Butina.
So trump didn't hack the election coz.... Hoover
It's an economic war.... Ask the Skirpals, the family of Dawn Sturgess, Crimeans, Syrians...
Trump's just being a lefty protectionist
Trump's achievements in NK amount to not startist WW3
Regan was worse because he befriended Gorbachev
And the migration crisis is unsettling the EU, so we should run away.
Being an applologist for Trump/Putin must be tiring work, ninfan!
So skipping the usual crap from ninfan can you find anyone supporting Trump on this one? Fox ain't happy, republicans ain't happy.
I'd be more concerned if Trump didn't change his mind every 5 minutes. I'm sure Russia will be the Evil Empire next week and then super BFF's again the week after.
For all his political cunning I'm not sure even Putin knows wtf is going on, much less how to control him. Sure, Putin's already had a major victory in helping drive a wedge between the US President and his intelligence services - fortunately I expect it's easily repairable whenever the next President is sworn in, it's just a question of damage limitation until then.
Does anyone else have an overriding fear that somewhere, some time ago a conversation was had.
You can make me president with that tech?
Sure, I just need a favour.
Name it.
pull out of NATO, and turn a blind eye to whatever happens in Europe thereafter.
Europe? they all hate me anyway.
Exactly.
