Pointless to speculate.
Or take it at face value when someone else does.
Rather than just slagging off everything, why not list how you would have actually managed the pandemic differently? How would you have saved 1000’s of lives, kept the economy going, kept every part of the country happy, vaccinated everyone more quickly and got the pubs open more quickly 🤔
Where to start? Taking it seriously & not taking February as a holiday to sort out his divorce would've been a start, then going ahead with herd immunity plan, even tho painfully obvious was going to kill 100d of 1000s (was discussed in covid thread in early march)
Then lying repeatedly about testing
Using PPE procurement to bung your mates some cash,
Not blowing up credibility & compliance by backing Cummings ridiculous eye test story
And crucially learning the lessons of the first wave and not delaying lockdown in the autumn and again in January (more people died in the autumn/winter wave than spring/summer)
Oh and testing and quarantine at Borders, and not delaying 3 weeks to put India on red list coz he wanted a trade deal, thus jeopardisong the pubs opening next month....
Any comment @Bullet? A lot of these things were flagged up at the time in the media and even on the covid thread here
Pointless to speculate.
Yep, which is why I said that is besides the point and not to be used as a defence against how badly the actual government were doing rather than a theoretical government. It is unfortunately how a lot of people think and to a large extant I agree with them, speculation or not.
How would you have saved 1000’s of lives, kept the economy going, kept every part of the country happy, vaccinated everyone more quickly and got the pubs open more quickly 🤔
As a starter....
not releasing infected pensioners into Care Homes, despite saying they wouldn't (and then denying, ie lying about doing it)
by locking down harder and sooner - a week delay in lockdown results in the lockdown lasting a month longer in round numbers, due to the relative growth and decline rates
By allowing the experts to do their jobs instead of creating the 'I like chaos because then everyone is reliant on me to be in charge'. Look how well the vaccine program has gone, is it a coincidence that was outsourced to the NHS, etc. instead of the cabinet office.
.....but you know all this already, it's been done to death in the CV19 thread.
We ****ed this up miserably and now the vaccines are bailing us out to an extent. And Jimmy Saville raised a lot of money for charity.
One thing is for certain, if Corbyn was P.M with 130000 dead, he certainly wouldn't be P.M now.
I know nothing about tea Danny, when I want to lift my spirits I drink a toast to the Fatherland.
Yesterday seemed to confirm that we were all wrong about Cummings role. Rather than some all-powerful Machiavellian puppet-master, he was simply another adviser who’s recommendations Boris ignored
There's some proper about turns being done here! Maybe DC liked the "I'm as big as the PM" or the "I'm CHIEF Advisor" hierarchy thing because, let's face it, the job of an advisor is to remain in the background, not be front and centre of everything. So he clearly enjoyed that role while it lasted and the puffing up of his own importance - that comes across in his blog posts too, the idea that he's some sort of super-thinker playing 4D-chess.
But now he's claiming that he was "just" an advisor, the PM ignored a lot of what he said and so on...
🤔
Why are you blindly repeating the nonsense that a Corbyn government would have been worse in dealing with the pandemic
I dont think they would have been worse dealing with it but the papers would have been full of the nonsense his brother spouts and basically rubbished everything Corbyn said leading to a country full of confusion.
There’s some proper about turns being done here!
Of course there is. Someone has stepped out of the smoke and mirrors, to show us something different (might also be meant to mislead, but looking to other sources, such as Sage reports published, will help you decide how much that is the case).
There’s some proper about turns being done here!
I always though Cummings had some good points. The civil service probably does need a shake up, as do most public services, things can be done more effectively etc,.
The problem I have with him is that he is always on the wrong side (Brexit, Tory Party) and that is either because he agrees with them or is doing it in a mercenary/lacking morals ways. Neither are good with me.
Listening to Hancock now. It sickens me. Tens of thousands have died (unnecessarily) in care homes yet tory MPs are congratulating him on his response and s****ing and laughing. How do these people sleep? - in my eyes they are nothing short of murderers.
Why do we accept being ruled by Etonians who hold us and the truth in contempt? I can only thing we are a nation of serfs.
Sorry. I boiled over.
Maybe DC liked the “I’m as big as the PM” or the “I’m CHIEF Advisor” hierarchy thing because, let’s face it, the job of an advisor is to remain in the background, not be front and centre of everything. So he clearly enjoyed that role while it lasted and the puffing up of his own importance – that comes across in his blog posts too, the idea that he’s some sort of super-thinker playing 4D-chess.
With what we learnt yesterday it would seem that this impression suited everybody. Cummings got to bask in his infamy as an evil genius, but it looks like he was also a convenient scapegoat for decisions taken by Johnson that were ultimately nothing to do with him, or in a lot of cases the polar opposite of what he recommended
On care homes - it was clearly a mistake but that clarity only came in hindsight. the advice at the time of the first wave was that transmission in care homes was unlikely. that advice was wrong and that mistake was made in Scotland and many other countries as well
What is unforgivable is that the second wave also led to large numbers of deaths in care homes in england - that is unforgivable
Not closing borders early enough is a clear error with no excuse. Not locking down early enough was a clear error with no excuse
Johnson and his cabal are directly responsible for tens of thousands of deaths because of their willful incompetence.
I know nothing about tea Danny, when I want to lift my spirits I drink a toast to the Fatherland.
In private, of course?
Could be seen as a bit decadent otherwise...
The civil service probably does need a shake up, as do most public services, things can be done more effectively etc
What do you base this statement on?
I think this is important. For a long time now, this kind of sweeping "that sounds like something we can all agree on" statement has been used to undermine public bodies and reduce budgets, which satisfies ideologues who despise the idea of a benevolent state and serves to then create the evidence the original statement usually lacked.
This is the starting point for kleptocracies where the blithe assumption that the private sector will do a better, most cost-effective job provides cover for Tory politicians to hand lucrative contracts to companies run by their friends with virtually no scrutiny.
Few processes are perfect, but making incremental improvements is seldom the chosen approach.
I know nothing about tea
Would that be because proper tea is theft?
April 2020 - people on the left had Cummings down as a liar and the new price of darkness. People on the right defended him and supported his position at the time.
May 2021 - people on the left are taking every word said yesterday as the truth and should be trusted. People on the right say he's a liar, bitter and twisted.
Only when the full enquiry happens and his statements are compared with others will we know the "truth".
What do you base this statement on?
Experience. And I am not saying it to undermine anything or reduce budgets. Budgets should not be reduced but being more efficient with the same budget would be a good thing.
Would that be because proper tea is theft?
Excellent work! 😀
Only when the full enquiry happens and his statements are compared with others will we know the “truth”.
And it needs to happen as soon as possible. There is a chance that major pandemic decisions may have to be made again in the next 18 months, and we need to learn the lessons of the last 18 months to be ready for that. And by "learn the lessons", I don't mean just sack Hancock and move on...
There’s some proper about turns being done here!
Of course there is. Someone has stepped out of the smoke and mirrors, to show us something different (might also be meant to mislead, but looking to other sources, such as Sage reports published, will help you decide how much that is the case).
A lot of what Cummings owned up to yesterday- whatever his reasons - were already in the public domain, but being ignored and/or denied by the government, the media and a large proportion of the population.
Now they are front and centre. Answers are now much harder to avoid.
I still think he's a scheming ****, but broken clocks are still correct twice a day
Experience. And I am not saying it to undermine anything or reduce budgets. Budgets should not be reduced but being more efficient with the same budget would be a good thing.
Agreed, but I think statements like that without specifics are far too commonly used for ulterior ends.
Agreed, but I think statements like that without specifics are far too commonly used for ulterior ends.
And usually by people charging many thousands of pounds a day to do so, and the answer they come up with is invariably to cut staffing levels by 50%
I still think he’s a scheming ****
Aye, and there's the plaguy rub. Most MPs think he's a lying shit, most people (after Barnard Castle) think he's a lying shit, and so does the Chairman of the Inquiry (Hunt, said of the allegations, unless there's evidence, they're just speculation, and apparently he doesn't think Cummings saying "I was in the room" is enough), for a man who's reputation was largely built on weaponising "falsehoods" to come in front of a committee and play the "honest, Guv it was chaos, I did me best, but..." card seems at best Hopeful?
Hancock got off scot-free in the commons this morning, mostly because Tory MPs when it came down to it, will offer more support to him, than they will to Cummings...
Interesting points above and I hadn't bothered to read all the threads on the subject to be fair. Agree that an earlier lockdown and closing borders would have been a good idea but there would still have been a huge backlash against that.
The backlash would have been from the usual vocal-but-not-very-bright suspects. Unfortunately for the rest of us, these idiots represent Johnson’s core support, which he shamelessly panders too.
In reality, all polling showed overwhelming public support for a more cautious approach
I don’t know about you, but we’d effectively locked down weeks before the official lockdown, and I watched in utter disbelief as they continued to let large sporting events go ahead.
The Cheltenham Festival and Champions League match at Anfield (with 5000 fans flying in to Liverpool from Madrid, which was the epicentre of infection in Europe) being acts of what seemed to me to be suicidally reckless stupidity, under the circumstances
there would still have been a huge backlash against that.
Maybe not - other countries were doing it, pictures from Italy and Spain were horrific, and by going in harder and earlier, it would have been shorter, so less impact on business and the economy.
Several times Cummings said the groupthink was that the public wouldn't take lockdowns, when the vast majority actually did.
April 2020 – people on the left had Cummings down as a liar and the new price of darkness. People on the right defended him and supported his position at the time.
May 2021 – people on the left are taking every word said yesterday as the truth and should be trusted. People on the right say he’s a liar, bitter and twisted.
Whereas a lot of people have been and still do look at what he is saying, looking back at the historical data (news reports etc) at what was going on at that time, coming to their own conclusions and basing their assessment of the current news on that analysis. To state that one person is 100% a liar or 100% truthful is just stupid, it's also fuelled by the media.
I still think he’s a scheming ****, but broken clocks are still correct twice a day
More likely that right now what's in the best interests of the country and Dominic have aligned. When he was inside No 10 they were most likely at opposite ends of the scale.
More likely that right now what’s in the best interests of the country and Dominic have aligned. When he was inside No 10 they were most likely at opposite ends of the scale.
Very fair comment
Interesting points above and I hadn’t bothered to read all the threads on the subject to be fair. Agree that an earlier lockdown and closing borders would have been a good idea but there would still have been a huge backlash against that.
Sorta living on a island is a big benefit during a pandemic, squandering it by not shutting your borders after four years of a ‘taking back control‘ mantra seems to be an odd decision.
John Crace, excellent as usual.
It's all a bit 'Honest and Dishonest Guard' riddle isn't it?
https://riddlesbrainteasers.com/honest-dishonest-guards/
We know Dom's a liar so we can't trust what he says. But we know Boris is also a liar. But they're saying different things so they can't both be lying.
"Boris, what would Dominic say if he was asked about your bodies piled high statement"
I don’t think a Corbyn government would have done any better. They were no better prepared or skilled to deal with a pandemic
But, and this is THE but, both Joris and Maybot before him were warned that something was coming. The (conservative) govt. had also been warned that they were woefully unprepared. AND THEY DID EFF ALL ABOUT IT.
Exercise Cygnus
(And yes, for the hairsplitters I know they weren’t simulating exactly the same thing, but I hope the point is made.)
Agree that an earlier lockdown and closing borders would have been a good idea but there would still have been a huge backlash against that.
And that’s where a competent and well organised government comes in, run by a leader that has the best interests of the country at heart and would have been able to convince the public that it was the best plan(based on evidence from other countries) to go for immediate and very intense restrictions .
As said above,this bunch of clowns squandered all our advance warning time.
And yes, for the hairsplitters I know they weren’t simulating exactly the same thing, but I hope the point is made
There was an analogy ages back. If the fire inspectors came round and saw your fire exits were locked they'd tell you to unlock them.
If subsequently your factory had a gas leak and no-one could escape because your exits were blocked the HSE wouldn't be giving you an easier ride because you hadn't planned for that exact scenario.
There was a woeful lack of preparation exposed by Cygnus and claiming that that was a Flu sim and this was different is totally irrelevant.
John Crace, excellent as usual.
"On balance, it felt as if some light had crept through the cracks. The families of the bereaved deserved better than truths carved out of a desire to settle some personal scores."
Enquiry. Now. The excuse that we should be "getting on with the recovery from Covid" is utterly bogus... this pandemic could well have further twists and turns to it yet, and we need to avoid further government missteps of the kind we have had to watch from the sidelines, open mouthed in disbelief, over the last 18 months.
Cummings = Vicky Pollard
The excuse that we should be “getting on with the recovery from Covid” is utterly bogus
Someone noted this morning on Radio 4 that they're quite happy to crack on with gerrymandering political boundaries, voter ID and all manner of other things that are nothing to do with 'recovering from a pandemic' yet suit their own ends, but apparently they can't fit in a public inquiry
Someone noted this morning on Radio 4 that they’re quite happy to crack on with gerrymandering political boundaries, voter ID and all manner of other things that are nothing to do with ‘recovering from a pandemic’ yet suit their own ends, but apparently they can’t fit in a public inquiry
Self serving and contradictory hypocrisy from the government - surely not?
We know Dom’s a liar so we can’t trust what he says. But we know Boris is also a liar. But they’re saying different things so they can’t both be lying.
They could both be lying in slightly different ways.
There does seem to be the central office defence trying the "left now believe everything he says" line which a)is rubbish and b)skips over their fanatical defence of him last year.
Anyone watch any of the Hancock love in session? Superb how many tory MPs now think Cummings is the worse thing ever.
Bonus points to the one who printed out their Barnard Castle eye test as a background but somehow forgot to mention that when sending the defence of him emails last year.
Wonder if Hancock was feeling relieved about their moronic support or, rightly, knew it could be as quickly removed on orders as Cummings support was.
Poor little Matty. Not very bright, is he?
Even now Dom and pointed it out in words of less than 2 syllables he still doesn't realise he's been the fall guy from day 1, and Boris is only keeping him around as a blame sponge to be thrown to the wolves when the public inquiry happens
And that’s where a competent and well organised government comes in, run by a leader that has the best interests of the country at heart and would have been able to convince the public that it was the best plan(based on evidence from other countries) to go for immediate and very intense restrictions .
I am sort of assuming you are north of the border fasthaggis?
We see this in Scotland. Holyroods limited powers meant some things the scottish government wanted to do they were not able and some of the same mistakes have been made north of the border but I have confidence Sturgeon and co are attempting to make the right decisions for the right reasons and Sturgeon has apologised for mistakes made. I am sure people are more inclined to follow guidance if they have confidence in their leaders.
It’s all a bit ‘Honest and Dishonest Guard’ riddle isn’t it?
https://riddlesbrainteasers.com/honest-dishonest-guards/
We know Dom’s a liar so we can’t trust what he says. But we know Boris is also a liar. But they’re saying different things so they can’t both be lying.
Hancock got off scot-free in the commons this morning, mostly because Tory MPs when it came down to it, will offer more support to him
Noticed one of them blowing smoke up Hancock's arse was called Willie Wragg. Perfect companion to a Penis Beaker!
We know Dom’s a liar so we can’t trust what he says. But we know Boris is also a liar. But they’re saying different things so they can’t both be lying.
They can when it's not a binary choice.
