What a STW thread! Anyway, in the market for a slim fitting down jacket having returned a Kilpi to Sportpursuit that wasn't very well made. Down South so doesn't need to be too full on what with all the global warming and that. I really like the fit of the Rab Microlight although not so keen on the shiny colours. Seen the Arc'teryx Cerium for £230, good bit less than RRP but still bloody strong money for something which sounds a bit fragile. Are Arc'teryx really worth the money/ that much better than a Rab for £150-£175 or is it all marketing bollocks?
What I'd really like is a Jottnar Fenrir but not willing to pay the money!
Arcteryx are better made / designed IMO compared to Rab. They have better detailing on things like cuffs etc. Nothing wrong with Rab at all (I have loads), but Arcteryx is definitely a step up in design / quality. They both will use similar fabrics / materials, so not a big difference in performance. In the end the choice would come down to fit / aesthetics for me.
Arcteryx is pretty much what Rab stuff from 20 years ago was in terms of market placement... Ie the best that you can get.
Rab stuff these days is just mass produced far eastern tat reasonable kit at a lower price point trading on Carrington's good name.
Got some new Rab stuff and some old stuff. The fact that my 30 year old Kinder smock now looks and works just as well as my current Rab offering says a lot about the supendous quality that it used to be.
Don't get me wrong, it is still.pretty good/ok but not same level as arcteryx
Dark Peak Nessh, and get that extra warm feeling of providing a warm coat to someone homeless...
See I just don't get on with Arcteryx stuff at all, everything has a weird fit. Rab is ok but I actually really like Mountain Equipment stuff, just seems to fit, work and last a decent length of time.
Girlfriend has an Acr-teyrx down jacket, I've got a Rab. Had to send mine off after 3 years as the main zip had broken. Girlfriend has got a couple of tears in hers. These are both 4 or 5 years old, and have had a lot of use. Including a few 4000/5000m peaks....Splitboarding in -10 and lots of general UK use.
As @footflaps said, the arcteyrx is a level up from the Rab....I've been more than happy with my Rab though.
i have a Rab jacket i wear all day every day, the cuff is slowly detaching itself. next time ill try Mountain Equipment or Arc'teryx
I love my Arc’teryx kit, fits me well but it is pricey. I wear it my Gamma LT softshell as my daily jacket since 2014 and I’ve an Easyrider jacket from 2002 ish and it is still going. There will be issues like glued hems peeling back etc but you can generally claim that on their warranty. Definitely better than Rab so worth seeing if you can justify the price.
never had any rab kit to compare but all the arcteryx kit I've had/got has been pretty robust. never paid full price though, you can generally find it on sale somewhere.
I've never had any Rab kit but I've got an Arcteryx base layer and a Mountain Equipment shirt that I'm wearing atm. Bought both back in 2014, they both get worn regularly, the base layer only in winter months obvs but the shirt gets worn all year round for hiking/biking and general outdoor activities. Neither are showing any signs of wearing out anytime soon.
ME stuff is fab if it fits. Have a look at Montane too
It's really worth checking out Black Diamond too. I love my BD belay jacket in winter
I have a Arc-teryx Ames Gore-Tex down jacket - medium synthetic fill rather than full on super insulated.
It's the best jacket I own for fit and features - the hood and the way it stows is genuinely superb, doesn't feel fragile at all.
I have a couple of Rab garments, they're really nice and well made but not up there with the same quality of fit or features. (admittedly, they have different purposes.)
It’s really worth checking out Black Diamond too.
Yep, they have some lovely pieces in their range - again nice attention to detail.
It all depends. Rab's really full-on top-end stuff is pretty good, though more compromised than Arc'teryx. I prefer the ME fit on jackets to either, but that's really personal. However... and no-one ever says this, the high-end Berghaus stuff, basically anything badged Extrem or particularly Mtn.Haus is deceptively brilliant and developed working closely with Leo Houlding.
That includes the down stuff, which uses reflective technology and zoned baffles - the Ramche and variants of it are all astonishingly good. Of course Berghaus isn't a cool climbers' brand, so none of the cool climbing dog walkers will buy it, but if you want a down jacket that actually works, it's very, very good.
No-one's mentioned PHD. UK made. Great component parts, particularly the 1000 fill power down, not a very sophisticated cut. Decades behind the far east when it comes to manufacturing tech. Sigh.
Are Arc’teryx really worth the money/ that much better than a Rab for £150-£175 or is it all marketing bollocks?
Arc'teryx is a brilliant functional brands that's very focussed on doing stuff right. That means it costs more. Whether the performance advantage is worth it is down to you really.
If you do go for the Rab Microlight, the Summit which has stitchless construction is more windproof and deceptively warmer as a result than the standard one. if they still make it. But midi-baffled jackets are more efficient when it comes to warmth to weight ratios. Microbaffles mean lots of stitchlines - cold spots and stitch holes that wind goes through - and thinner insulation compartments generally.
Of course it's all junk made in the Far East, unlike Arc'teryx which is, erm, made in the Far East mostly these days bar some of the shells which are still produced in Canada.
ME have a lot of jackets in their range around £200, more research needed
Black Diamond look to be shipping from the EU so will swerve that for now
I have montane and ME down jackets - both good and we’re about 100 quid
Son has TNF - batters it and holding up v well
Wife has Sweet Protection which is lovely
I don’t have any Arcteryx but seem to remember they share links to 7mesh bikewear which is very well designed and cut.
Of course it’s all junk made in the Far East, unlike Arc’teryx which is, erm, made in the Far East mostly these days bar some of the shells which are still produced in Canada.
You get what you pay for with sub contract manufacture, so you can get excellence (at a price) and utter tat. Fairly obvious Arcteryx pay for higher quality control as their stuff is pretty flawless - but it costs a lot more (mainly brand premium I would guess rather than actual manufacturing costs).
One of my favourite fleeces, an Alpkit piece, looks like the seamstress was blind drunk when she did the cuffs, not a straight line anywhere. So they obviously skipped quality control there 😉 You'd have never got that past the QC on the Arcteryx line, it would have been binned.
One advantage of the duff cuffs is I don't mind wearing it for gardening / DIY whereas I'd never do that with Arteryx stuff as it's just too nice. So I wear the lower quality stuff far more...
@davosaurusrex
ME have a lot of jackets in their range around £200, more research needed
Black Diamond look to be shipping from the EU so will swerve that for now
I bought mine in a UK shop!!!
There are lots of UK stockists, Tiso, Eliis Brigham etc. etc.
I got my ME from Sportpursuit
Re: Arc'teryx
It's not as premium as it used to be in that the unlimited guarantee is now more of a sensible light use guarantee.
e.g. the glue on my wife's GTX coat hem has dissolved in a recent wash. As it's little more than 5yrs old they won't honour any guarantee even though it was sold with an allegedly great guarantee. They will however let her send it to Switzerland at her own cost, then assess the garment and offer a repair service which she has to pay for. She will then have to pay for the return postage too. This is not how you expect a premium brand to honour it's much vaunted guarantee.
By contrast I had a main zip problem on a Patagonia fleece about 7/8 yrs old. They said post it to Portugal, we'll fix it for free and send it back to you. I did that, donated it to an outdoor charity and bought a new one as I was so happy with their service.
Yeah I've read a few complaints about Arc'teryx warranty. If you're paying for a supposedly top brand as well as the name I'd expect a chunk of that to go into warranty support, e.g. Specialized Levos.
I've had RAB, it's okay, but as everyone else says Arc'teryx is better.
I also have a Jottnar jacket (not the Fenrir).
As you notice the difference between Arc'teryx and RAB, then you are going another step up with Jottnar.
I suspect my jacket will outlast me!
The seams, general quality and fit are all great.
Though I think they are assembled in China, the company is British.
If I needed another insulated jacket, then I'd save up a few extra quid and buy another Jottnar.
Can I throw Patagonia into the mix (although use a ME synthetic day to day as it’s a bit too wet up here for everyday down use). Some jackets with recycled material, and ethically sourced down.
I've got a Finisterre down jacket that I live in. It got a thread loose about 6 months after I bought it and I sent it back they fixed it for free.
They are a cert b corp so environmentally sounder too.
+1 Patagonia. I've got a slim-fit down jacket from them and it's perfect for down south. Cheaper than Arc'teryx, pricier than Rab and they at least try to do some good (with 1% for the Planet).
Can't speak of Arc'teryx but my Rab experience is mixed -
bought an Alpine Neoshell & 11 months later with v little use the main zip failed. Rab didn't offer a repair but a new jacket & as they'd stopped doing the Neoshell by then (G'ah!) offered a Latok Alpine (not overly similar but a more heavy weight expensive well reviewed Event jacket) which I accepted.
8 months later (& little use again) the zips failed on the pocket. Again - no repair offered but this time they sent me a random jacket (a purple hill walking 3/4 length heavy duty goretex jacket that weighed pretty much double the Latok & significantly more than the original Neoshell) rather than a discussion or options. After explaining that I wasn't happy with the random jacket they took it back & offered me another Latok Alpine which I accepted.
14 months later the internal pocket glue starts coming away on 2 of the 3 pockets. Its just come back from Rab after a free repair.
So after 4 jackets from Rab in less than 4 years for me its mixed - I'm disappointed with the quality of the 3 jackets I've owned (& worn) that have failed but impressed by the CS (whilst also being slightly annoyed with them at the same time for the ridiculous jacket substitute - great I had a new jacket but not quite the type of jacket I had bought).
Not sure what the issue with zips, Rab & I is but I've got a lot of jackets (Mrs Bit would defo say too many) from a variety of brands - Montane, Howies, Finsterre, NF, Carharrt, Alpkit etc etc but I've had no zip issues on the rest and more issues with the Rab jackets than the rest combined..
Unless its a bargain I don' think I'll buy Rab again.
e.g. the glue on my wife’s GTX coat hem has dissolved in a recent wash. As it’s little more than 5yrs old they won’t honour any guarantee even though it was sold with an allegedly great guarantee. They will however let her send it to Switzerland at her own cost, then assess the garment and offer a repair service which she has to pay for. She will then have to pay for the return postage too. This is not how you expect a premium brand to honour it’s much vaunted guarantee.
Hmm, I had a similar problem with a Theta jacket and sent it to Switzerland. They told me that they couldn't re-glue the glued bit (for some reason) but they sewed that bit and every other similar seam on the jacket for free and sent it back for free, so it seems to be a bit random.
After owning various jackets from all of the above brands over the years and having mixed luck with each brand I decided to give Paramo ago and will never go anywhere else.....they just work.....my favourite being my Torres Alturo jacket.... Toasty warm and not bulky.
As an alternative to all the well-known brands, I’d like to suggest Jottnar. I’ve got some of their stuff, a yakwool base layer, a Magni mid-layer, and a Fenrir down jacket, and I love it. Based in Cardiff, set up by a couple of ex-Marines who had a lot of experience messing around in Norway in winter.
Edit to say I’ve just noticed OP’s mention of the Fenrir! I did get mine in an end of season sale, and they were a bit cheaper then, I paid £170 for mine, but it is a superb jacket, and I think it’s the care and quality that you pay for, not TV product placement, although Steve Backshaw wears one of their top end down jackets in really cold conditions, like when he was mountaineering in Greenland.
https://www.jottnar.com/
https://www.jottnar.com/collections/mens-mid-layer-fleece/products/magni-mens-hooded-fleece
Patagonia are good in my experience. Not as good as they were and their warranty isn't much to write home about. At one time, if you had a problem they'd repair/replace, period. Age didn't matter. Now they might attempt a repair but no guarantees and no replacement. They may give you a discount on a replacement but don't bank on it.
They make quality gear though. Well designed and are trying to recycle and so on.
Haven't had an arc'teryx jacket but thinking my next on e might be. Got a couple of their hats which are pretty good.
My Arcteryx stuff has been bombproof while other brands include Rab has disintegrated. Mrs NZCols 14 year old jacket was just fixed under warranty - hem had come unglued. Came back like new ! They also fixed a gilet I damaged. It’s expensive but it lasts.
Haglofs are also worth looking at.
Had relatively good warranty support from Arcteryx, jacket was at least 6 years old, had to send to Switzerland at my expense but they fixed and returned for free.
Would have been cheaper to get it fixed locally but I was gambling on them maybe replacing whole jacket 😁
Other than that looks like new, outlasted my eVent Rab Latok by a good number of years (blame that on the eVent though)
I'm a massive Arcteryx fan, have been for years. Definitely better than Rab these days, the fit for me is really good but I don't think the quality is quite what it was 10 years ago.
There are several more ethical choices, some with better environmental credentials than mass produced far eastern kit- Paramo, Keela & Patagonia come to mind, each with a much stronger ethos and less problems lurking down in the supply chain. These days I try to buy better but less often and with an eye on the working conditions of the people making the kit.
At least with Keela I can take it back to the factory in Glenrothes and they'll repair.
If your buying now, I don't know if you can relate to folk saying stuff has lasted 15 years and buy based on that, lots of companies have changed beyond recogmition in 15 years, owners, ethos, manufacturing processes and where their manufactured etc.
I tend to not bother about brands, apart from maybe sticking to ones that I know fit me well, instead I'll buy what I can afford, not lust after the next must have kit.
I used to pretty much exclusively buy Arcteryx. I don't anymore apart from always having the ever present Atom LT and Gamma softshells. Sure, it's nicely finished, but I don't find it lasts any longer or is any more durable than other brands. The warranty isn't what it used to be going by all accounts.
These days I stick with Mountain Equipment and Jottnar predominantly. Both brands just work and I've had great customer service from both.
Rab, I haven't worn for years after buying one of their higher end hardshells and it leaked like a sieve.
I really like Patagonia and their ethical standpoint, but the fit of their gear is really boxy (for my shape).
All worn in anger predominantly in the Cairngorms year round.
The above is a good point, companies and quality change over time. I have Rab jackets and I think they are excellent as are Patagonia. And get Primaloft light, warm and easily washable, down is not great in damp and wet conditions.
My RAB down jacket is 12 years old and sound as a button. Might not be reflective of currents standards though. I also have a similar vintage winter sleeping bag.
I mostly favour ME these days. Good fit. Lasts well. Nice features.
I really like Patagonia and their ethical standpoint, but the fit of their gear is really boxy
Yup, agreed, Paramo is the same. I know Paramo stuff is very well regarded, but it looks terrible, and I ain't paying all that cash for a jacket that looks shite!
I've found Arcteryx to be pretty bombproof, and my relatively recent Beta made in China seems to be just as well made as the 2003 Canadian-made one it replaced. Seems like they still haven't sorted out their UK warranty process though - sending an 8 year old jacket off to Switzerland to have some seam tape reattached was not ideal even though it was sent back as good as new.
Haglofs are also worth looking at.
I suspect there's Haglofs and there's Haglofs. A Haglofs jacket I got to replace a worn-out Arcteryx was in a worse state after one season of ski touring than the old Arcteryx. When your life may depend on it you want something that works so I went back to Arcteryx.
Seems like they still haven’t sorted out their UK warranty process though – sending an 8 year old jacket off to Switzerland to have some seam tape reattached was not ideal even though it was sent back as good as new.
Yeah, given the postage costs I wouldn't even bother in future, there's local places that do really professional repairs, probably for less than the cost of postage to Switzerland! Scottish Mountain Gear for example.
At least with Keela I can take it back to the factory in Glenrothes and they’ll repair
I keep trying to find a reason to buy a new Keela Saxon but sadly have all the waterproofs I'll need for the next wee while. Looks perfect as a bikepacking jacket.
Go full STW and get the Rapha Explore jacket!
I keep trying to find a reason to buy a new Keela Saxon but sadly have all the waterproofs I’ll need for the next wee while. Looks perfect as a bikepacking jacket.
Every time I've seen one they look a bit boxy too, I hate jackets that aren't well fitted tbh, otherwise I'm with you.