So saying that Diane Abbott makes him want to hate all black women is “inappropriate” but not, apparently, a gender based or race based comment.
Sometimes you have to admire senior politicians ability to talk complete bollocks and still maintain a straight face, it can’t be easy.
It's another one of those "I think we can all agree it was wrong" scenarios where the original comment is never repeated...
Tory donor's words sadly appeal to a lot of people.
I was listening to the Same Defence of the indefensible his morning.
I really don't know how they can claim it had nothing to do with Race or Gender when he specifically referred to her race and gender. Pricks.
The request for the Tories to hand back donations misses the point in some ways, even if they hand it all back they're still a party run by and for Bastards, and everyone knows it. The money would find it's way back to them via an appropriately laundered route, the real question should be why does someone with such views want to chip into the Tory coffers in the first place?
What the opposition should really be asked for is for them to acknowledge the bigotry and hate at work in those comments, agree that such people are not suitable to have input to a major political party (especially one in government) and make a pledge that his £10m (or any other sum of money) will no longer buy him the influence or special access it was clearly intended to...
Obviously they can't/won't actually do that, Tories love money and are happy to play whatever dog whistles people with cash ask them to.
To be fair to him, he's now given us all an insight into the proportions required for public sector contracts
10 million donation = 400 million in business
Quite the investment
But I don’t suppose for a minute that he has personal access to your medical record.
He won't have, but I'll guarantee that if he wanted to he could.
Kwasi "the crash meister" Kwarteng thinks it's both racist and sexist.
First half of the News Agents podcast covers this.... Hard to disagree with the presenters take on it.
If you see the contribution of people who don’t share your point of view to a discussion as ‘derailment’, perhaps a chat forum isn’t the place for you
No, the derailment is the risk of dragging it off to another Israel vs Palestine argument which we all know is a sure fire way to kill any thread on here.
As long as you're not going to do that I'm happy to discuss the merits of 'someone said some bad things so forfeit any right to not have people threaten to shoot them' - which you said you had little sympathy for.
"Luckily, the governents Minister for Women and Equalities, Kemi Badenoch, is also a woman of colour so I’m sure she’ll be very vocal in the defence of Dianne Abbot and lead the way in the condemnation of Frank Hestor and advocate the money being returned, no?
She must have done so already, surely?"
From Twitter/ X
"Abbott and I disagree on a lot. But the idea of linking criticism of her, to being a black woman is appalling."
“It’s never acceptable to conflate someone’s views with the colour of their skin.”
Seems like your wish is her command eh binners? She's keeping the bag Though!
EDIT: Apparently it was her comments that pushed Sunak into finally calling it racist too. Just who is the real leader of the Conservative Party these days???
Just who is the real leader of the Conservative Party these days???
I think we only formally exclude Sunak himself which must be a bit of a concern for him! I think of I'd just walk, I mean, he's hugely wealthy and married into an even wealthier family. Trott off, "need to spend time with wife and family etc etc" and you off to SoCal and let the warring factions fight it out, Hunger Games style or something.
I am so glad that many public figures and popular social media are supporting Abbot on this. I haven't agreed with her on many things, and she made some massive faux pas at times, some can be explained through illness, for which she was treated very unfairly, but she has always been a shoes on the ground politician, as such is very vulnerable, and I think for that this is incredibly dangerous. I just hope that this makes people wake up and it starts the end to this "culture war" nonsense on all sides.
Its just grim that Badenoch grabs the easy points, so Sunak then tries to show some leadership after spending all day avoiding it.
Just who is the real leader of the Conservative Party these days???
Gove. Soon to be in leader of the opposition. And then who knows!
This Hester clown has had a pop at the Indians too so Sunak and his wider family can take it personally now. Ooooh decisions…
The Conservative party’s biggest donor asked if there was “no room for the Indians” and suggested staff climb on a train roof during a crowded meeting, before saying he made “a lot of jokes about racism”.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/mar/12/tory-donor-frank-hester-no-room-for-the-indians
Gove. Soon to be in leader of the opposition. And then who knows!
I reckon Liz might try and have another go as Tory leader. I mean, in her head she was bloody amazing. The best ever. Everyone else just held on and hit the brakes but she thought it was fantastic playing monopoly with a G7 country! Fun times!
Why are there so many people dead set on holding into this poisoned chalice? It went to shit in 2016 and it was only ever going to get worse.
Yet there they go, all fighting to be the last to wear the rusting crown as Rome burns down around them. It's madness.
lols yes truss; "And then I pulled all the spiders legs off and it was still trying to live!! ha ha ha"
Maybe Cameron will have a go? They need a non entity whilst in opposition like William Hague or Iain Duncan Smith or Michael Howard, and then when in 8 years time they think they might have a chance the likes of Badenoch will pop out into daylight again. Truss has missed that boat, thankfully. The only person that can reverse that now is Johnson - obvs an horrific thought... Anyway this Hester thing is a massive nail in the coffin
I can't believe the Government is giving this company any contracts at all. As Hester is the only director and sole shareholder the whole company and its software products are extremely vulnerable if anything happens to him - surely the Government did a risk analysis before giving him millions of £s.
I also can't believe anyone in a position of authority and influence would ever consider suggesting shooting an MP - surely he is aware that Jo Cox MP was killed by a gunshot in a town very close to Leeds where he is based. Assuming he is a member of the Conservative Party will his outrageous comments lead to his expulsion, or will Sunak find some slippery excuse to absolve him and keep the £10 million?
So according to everyone in the Tory party sent out to bat in the media today, it was wrong but it wasn’t racist
Now Rishi has come out and said it is actually racist
No shit Sherlock!
Will they be giving the 10 mil back?
Of course not.
So whatever they say is meaningless
They’re still happy to take the money of someone who’s openly racist. He could go on live telly and batter some kittens to death with a cricket bat and they’d still happily take his money
she has always been a shoes on the ground politician
Oof.
Assuming he is a member of the Conservative Party will his outrageous comments lead to his expulsion, or will Sunak find some slippery excuse to absolve him and keep the £10 million?
I am not sure how it works but I don't think that being a member of the Conservative Party is quite like being a member of other parties.
I don't think that you hold an actual membership card.
I believe that you join your local Conservative Association and I don't know whether the party leader actually has the authority to expel members from it.
If anyone knows I would be interested, it's long been a mystery to me how Tory Party membership structures actual work.
ElShalimo
Full MemberAbbot is an enigma, she was a genuine trailblazer but in recent years has almost turned into a Spitting Image style caricature of her former self
No enigma, she's just been driven completely into the ground, after 40 years of doing her best while being completely drowned in hate. Who can say they'd have done better? I wouldn't have lasted a minute, I hope I never criticise someone for breaking under strain like that.
No, the derailment is the risk of dragging it off to another Israel vs Palestine argument which we all know is a sure fire way to kill any thread on here.
As long as you’re not going to do that I’m happy to discuss the merits of ‘someone said some bad things so forfeit any right to not have people threaten to shoot them’ – which you said you had little sympathy for.
If you so desperately dont want to talk about Israel & Palestine, why do you keep mentioning it? I haven't mentioned it.... Is it all you ever think about?
It's certainly on my mind a lot.
When someone starts saying antisemite it's always useful to check if they mean 'I hate the Jews' antisemitism or 'I disagree with views of the Israeli government and the actions of the IDF' antisemitism.
So which kind of antisemite is she?
And while we're at it, what kind of racist is she? Did she call someone a gammon once?
So which kind of antisemite is she?
I think she suggested that while the Traveller community, Jews and Irish can experience prejudice, it's different to racism (somehow, that she didn't really explain), and likened their experience to being similar to that of redheads. She went on in her letter [to the Guardian] to make a few other ill through-out comments that were pretty objectionable. She apologised afterwards I think, but it seemed to me to be one of those letters you perhaps write in the heat of the moment, and then give yourself 24 hours to think about. Only she didn't, it would appear. It was all the excuse Starmer needed to move against her though, which makes his comments about her seem a bit disingenuous at the very least.
Tomiwa Owolade claims that Irish, Jewish and Traveller people all suffer from “racism” (“Racism in Britain is not a black and white issue. It’s far more complicated”, Comment). They undoubtedly experience prejudice. This is similar to racism and the two words are often used as if they are interchangeable
It is true that many types of white people with points of difference, such as redheads, can experience this prejudice. But they are not all their lives subject to racism. In pre-civil rights America, Irish people, Jewish people and Travellers were not required to sit at the back of the bus. In apartheid South Africa, these groups were allowed to vote. And at the height of slavery, there were no white-seeming people manacled on the slave ships.
That was the 'letter'. Basically suggesting that non white people get racism in a different way as it is easier to segregate and spot a non-white person than say an Irish person. Bit clumsy but doesn't shout anti-semitic to me.
Hang on, is prejudice based on race not always racism? I just got a bit confused.
@kerley yeah, basically saying racism is a prejudice based on appearance rather than origin or religion. Really rather obvious tbh but there are those that will twist it to suit their needs.
Issue was obviously raised during PMQ's by Kier Starmer. It's a fairly damning indictment of the utter shitshow that our parliamentary system is, that after each time Starmer spoke, Diane Abbott stood up to try and get an intervention, and each time she was ignored. That is despite Hoyle clearly looking directly towards her on at least one of the occasions. He made racist and sexist comments about her, and called for het to be shot. Sunak tried to equate that with Angela Rayner calling Tories 'scum'. I genuinely can't wait to see these ****s out on their arses post GE.
Hang on, is prejudice based on race not always racism? I just got a bit confused.
That often gets confused with behaviour of certain groups within society. Travellers being the prime example, most peoples hostility towards this group stems from perceptions around their behaviour and lifestyle, perceptions which are often reinforced by direct experience. Many people don't necessarily think of travellers ethnic heritage. Most racism is directly based on the fact other people look different and is not based on any characteristic the individual being abused has any control over.
Dianne Abbott fell into the trap of trying to stratify racism suggesting that what some groups suffer more than others which may be true but in our current climate is not an acceptable thing to say.
Edit, in a nutshell this
basically saying racism is a prejudice based on appearance rather than origin or religion
Why are labour demanding the money be paid back rather than donated to an anti-racism charity?
In case Hester switches to Labour and gives them the money?
most peoples hostility towards this group stems from perceptions around their behaviour and lifestyle, perceptions which are often reinforced by direct experience.
How is that different from anti-Black bigots' perceptions of Black people's behaviour and lifestyle, perceptions which are often reinforced by direct experience (experiences that have been filtered through their own prejudice)?
I completely disagreed with her comments but she did at least retract them and apologise.
Why are labour demanding the money be paid back rather than donated to an anti-racism charity?
I doubt they can give away someone else's money, they were donated that for the campaign, if they don't use it, they have to give it back, otherwise they'll breach campaigning laws.
If you so desperately dont want to talk about Israel & Palestine, why do you keep mentioning it?
I would like to be able to talk about it - it's a major topic in the world today. But, and for good reasons, STW don't want to platform that debate.
I haven’t mentioned it….
You were a partial, if not major cause of the derailment of the Argentina thread causing its closure.
You then went on to say in response to a suggestion that DA deserves to be shot
Cant say I have much sympathy for an antisemite and racist
Maybe I'm putting 2 and 2 together to make 5, but when I referred to your past in the light of the above, it was in anticipation of you going down that path again. You suggested ANY disagreement was a derailment, so I clarified.
No, the derailment is the risk of dragging it off to another Israel vs Palestine argument which we all know is a sure fire way to kill any thread on here.
As long as you’re not going to do that I’m happy to discuss the merits of ‘someone said some bad things so forfeit any right to not have people threaten to shoot them’ – which you said you had little sympathy for.
Seems clear enough to me?
The idea that all racism is equal and which therefore means that there is no difference between the racism that Dianne Abbott has experienced throughout her life and the racism that Rachel Riley, for example, has experienced, is ridiculous.
Dianne Abbott should never have apologized imo for attempting to make that point.
The reason she had the Labour Party whip removed is because she is a traditional left-wing Labour politician. The excuse given was the false claim that she made a racist comment.
Seems clear enough to me?
Yawn, I wont be drawn into your attempts to change the subject on this thread. Good effort though
she stood up time and time again yet he deliberately overlooked her
Yup, as Stella Creasy MP pointed out Diane Abbott had to sit and listen to other MPs discussing her own safety but she herself wasn't given the opportunity to speak on the matter.
Only last month the Speaker of the House of Commons ignored convention, to the disgust of many, under the guise that he was particularly concerned about the safety of MPs. Today he wouldn't allow an MP to speak about threats to her own safety based apparently on the grounds that it would break convention.
Farcical, is how I would describe it.
Yawn, I wont be drawn into your attempts to change the subject on this thread. Good effort though
Not changing the subject, just explaining why I was suspicious of your motive to raise antisemitism. Let's consider that bit closed then.
Staying on topic:
A man said that Diane Abbott made him "want to hate all black women" and that she needed "to be shot"
You said you didn't have much sympathy for her because of clumsy remarks she made in the past and labelled her antisemitic and a racist. A very disputed position, FWIW
So, were his remarks OK then? Or not OK, but she somewhat deserved them? Do you still think DA is antisemitic and a racist?
Worthwhile clicking on the Twitter link to read the list of vile comments made by the Labour management team regarding Diane Abbot, clothing worn by female labour members and the disregard of the Forde report.
https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1767907717262320100
