Could this lead to tougher tests for older drivers

Certainly hope so, had to get the garage to expensively fail my dad's car at MOT to get him off the road.

It's a difficult conversation to have for both family & medical professionals if the driver doesn't want to engage or give up of their own accord. Some sort of official test to pass would be good, fil voluntarily took an extended test to prove to us he was fine to drive - he failed & had his licence revoked there & then.

Maybe the over-70s should do a theory test every time they renew the licence?

It wouldn't hurt if we all had to refresher training/tests every 10  years or so

I'm very glad that my grandfather basically got priced off the road (via his insurance going up exponentially because he was having so many minor prangs).

That happened before he could kill anyone through being generally incapable.

However even that was a tough one, he was very reluctant to give up driving.

Yep, I'd be very much in favour of 5-yearly retests once over 70.

Something more robust HAS to be put in place - I don't believe older drivers are the main liability on our roads either, but it seems there are a percentage who are wilfully putting themselves and others at risk by driving when not capable of doing so safely. In many ways that's no different to those who speed, or drink-drive, or use their phones whilst driving - I'd happily endorse more stringent methods to take them off our roads, too.

so if the SoS wanted they could say that anyone over X yrs old must complete a cognitive assessment for renewal.

The more appropriate option would be to simply require re-testing at intervals.

It'd need some evidence base, i.e how frequently does it need to be to discover enough bad drivers that it was worthwhile, or how quickly do people decline.

I don’t believe older drivers are the main liability on our roads either

It'd be interesting to see the stats on a per-mile basis, I suspect that because a lot of older people voluntarily give up driving, or retreat to only driving locally that the overall statistics mask a worse problem.  Are we seeing a small number of people having a lot of crashes being masked by the fact we just plot the 80-85 age group on a graph with exactly the same weighting as 30-35?

The testing system barely keeps up with demand for new drivers - adding a load more testing for existing drivers is basically a none starter no matter how much of a good idea it is.

Doubt it, it’s not like it’s something that hasn’t happened before 🙁

Theres a number of road deaths that people are prepared to accept(as long as it’s not them/family).

The testing system barely keeps up with demand for new drivers – adding a load more testing for existing drivers is basically a none starter no matter how much of a good idea it is.

The system currently kills people, which is a whole lot more expensive than opening a few more test centers.

It’d be interesting to see the stats on a per-mile basis, I suspect that because a lot of older people voluntarily give up driving, or retreat to only driving locally that the overall statistics mask a worse problem.

With the usual caveats around "anecdotal" etc...

My grandfather went from a man who'd be happy to just drive up to Scotland (from near Liverpool) for a day trip to someone who'd only ever drive across town.

Didn't stop him hitting half a dozen walls, trees, bins and cars en route.

Retest for everyone every x years. Make that 2x if you pass an advanced test.

In Spain I have to do a medical test every time I renew my licence (every 10 years - I think it drops to every 5 years at some point). It's not foolproof, as there are no doubt plenty of drivers who have a "friendly" test centre/doctor to go to, but it's certainly better than nothing. The test centres are all privately run (and generally private health care clinics), so no additional burden to the state.

Retest after any accident. Killing someone is unlikely to be someones first transgression.

Hopefully the rise of CCTV will stop the minor scrapes being drive-offs.

The testing system barely keeps up with demand for new drivers – adding a load more testing for existing drivers is basically a none starter no matter how much of a good idea it is.

This, really.

It's a madness that we can take a test, no matter how difficult or not that may be at the time, then never take a refresher for over half a century. I passed my test in 1990, mini roundabouts were a relatively new thing. I still see older drivers today who clearly don't have the faintest clue what to do with them.

The thing with older people is that a lack of mobility can be more lethal than a (generally low speed) prang. Not being able to self-sufficiently get around, both to socialize and look after themselves is a real issue that has to be balanced with the risk they generate to the rest of us

Retesting sounds like a good idea but the idea of retesting would drive a bunch of competent enough people off the road

There are broader considerations, for sure.

I don’t believe older drivers are the main liability on our roads either

There isn't really a 'main liability' on the roads, though, it's a mixture of everything from incompetence, poor training, age, speeding, alcohol, drugs, apathy, poor eyesight, under-maintained vehicles, aggression.... Dealing with one thing doesn't stop other things being dealt with, and tbh, I'd be quite happy for any of the liabilities to be removed. Makes the others a bit more obvious.

I just love this, another kick the elderly thread.

You can all do one, I really resent having to keep reappliying for my license every three years while being subjected on the road to all the dangerous behaviour on other road users.

This is one quite rare incidence but some 17 year old kid can kill 3 of his mates and himeself and none of you even commented.

I am sick of close passes , cars doing red light plus three or four in the all England light jumping championship, The idiot in Rusholme who passed me at speed in the straight on lane to turn right in front of the the cars in the process of turning right, the person in the Audi who overtook me in the 20mph zone when I was obeying the speed limit.

For the record my partner has promised to tell me the moment my driving is no longer safe so I can give up before getting to the point of being dangerous.

Raising the minimum age for a driving licence would immediately create a large number of vacant test slots for a couple of years and remove the most accident-prone drivers.

My neighbour is getting on a bit... I can tell when she's going out as I can hear her revving the nuts off her car just to pull away at 2mph, no clutch control at all...

Usually a sign they are losing capability in my experience, just waiting for the inevitable fender bender...although I now have a dash cam with a shock detector that's still active when the engine is off.

We've built a society for which the price of participation and accessing many essential services is the ability to travel by car. It's not surprising that many people then continue to drive when they are incapable of safely doing so.

Society doesn't seem to care too much about how the old folk who have never been able to drive or afford a car cope with accessing basic services.

I just love this, another kick the elderly thread.

Are we reading the same thread? Pretty much every response has been "retests for everyone."

and remove the most accident-prone drivers.

Maybe a bit, as people, especially blokes will be a bit more sensible over 25...but inexperience will still play a factor to some extent.

Interestingly, in spain its the car thats insured rather than the person, so anyone can drive your car with your permission, assuming they have a licence...its just cars that are more risky cost more to insure...

But that only generally applies if the driver is over 25... under 25 and you have to declare or take out an insurance bolt on of some sort.

I’m not normally one for arguing that old folk are the main liability on our roads and must be subject to retesting – the stats don’t really bear that out, but there are a small number of elderly drivers who have not relinquished their driving license even although they should have.  We need a more robust process

Maybe not in terms of absolute numbers (more younger drivers driving more miles per year I think), but in terms of their risk per mile theyre just as dangerous.

@thisisnotaspoon

I'm not sure how many older people actually voluntarily give up.  We had to stop both my parents driving because of their dementia. Doctors were no help (there should be a referral for a retest as soon as there is a dementia diagnosis, though of course that would only make it harder to get people to go for diagnosis.  Even though doctors seemingly won't get involved that was one of the elements of resistance in getting each of my parents diagnosed.  Going through the same with someone on my wife's side now who is clearly undiagnosed dementia but won't get assessed (partly out of fear they'll stop her driving)

I cant' remember how we stopped my Dad driving but he never stopped bringing it up until he died.  My mum we disconnected the battery in her car but by that time every corner was scraped and there had been an 'incident' on the motorway where apparently some young people in a car 'drove into her' but didn't stop.

I’m very glad that my grandfather basically got priced off the road (via his insurance going up exponentially because he was having so many minor prangs).

that only works if they claim.  My mother clearly never did for all the minor (presumably car park) prangs - and they were clearly all 'drive offs'.  I don't think supermarket car park CCTV covers nearly enough to pick this stuff up.

Personally - need 10 year tests to keep people up with Highway Code if nothing else. I suspect most people would be competent enough to be on their best behaviour and pass a practical test.  the Spanish approach seems mostly there - but seeing the way people age I reckon you need medical, Highway Code and reaction time/cognitive test every 10 years to 65, then 5 yearly to 80 then annually.

I'd make it in a simulator to take out the personal judgment of the instructor (I suspect otherwise there would be huge reluctance to fail old people pleading about their loss of freedom in a way there isn't with young people failing who will improve and eventually pass).  It's generally not vehicle control - that's almost on autopilot after decades of driving but observation, speed and distance judgement, and paying attention to signs etc (especially as they tend to restrict driving more locally as they age so they dont' spot changes)

The thing with older people is that a lack of mobility can be more lethal than a (generally low speed) prang. Not being able to self-sufficiently get around, both to socialize and look after themselves is a real issue that has to be balanced with the risk they generate to the rest of us

I agree, but at the time when this starts to become an issue, the world begins to get smaller anyway.  My grandparents haven't driven outside the county in 2 decades and rely on other people for lifts past the nearest village. They'd probably actually have more free cash if they sold the car(s) and signed up for an Uber* account.

*Uber would have to launch in Kirkby Lonsdale first, but I'm sure the local mincab office would oblige getting them to Booths / GP / etc and back in the meantime

Does anyone think the rapid acceleration of ev's is going to cause more of a problem for people not used to it or will autocity brake solve it? Because a lot of OAP accidents are down to pressing the whole pedal - I think the police even have a name for it.

OP reminds of a local driver who went the wrong way up the M40, he'd even been reported recently for a minor accident 🙁

Raising the minimum age for a driving licence would immediately create a large number of vacant test slots for a couple of years and remove the most accident-prone drivers.

It would also stop thousands of young people getting a job. Not all trot off to university and are ferried about by mummy and daddy.

Are there still people out there driving who have never done a test. My grandfather (no longer with us) claimed he was issued a licence with no test, but that was prewar when he got it.

Remember too that she (lady in the OP) had renewed her driving licence earlier that year, but cancelled her insurance as it was costing her too much money.

It's the sense of entitlement that gets me the most.

Same with some friends who know someone who works for Aston Martin (retail) complaining that they (literally) could NOT drive at 20mph as the cars would NOT do it.

Same with an acquaintance of mine saying he simply can't believe that a car is more economical at 20 than 30. I did comment that a chap called Newton would disagree with him.

I have no idea why new licences aren't issued on a 5/10 year cycle. Let the younguns bed in to a system like that, then if needed roll it out upwards in age.

And yes, I think old dudes should definitely not be allowed to self-certify they are safe to drive. Point in case, our next door neighbours - she was still driving with a Parkinson's diagnosis. He was 91 and failing eyesight. Still cycling (!) but having significant cognitive issues. When he was about 80, his wife told him to reverse into his driveway because he didn't look when reversing out of it, and we (next door, quiet road) have kids often playing out.

I stopped my kids going in the car with my dad when mum said he'd driven through a crossroads. And wouldn't admit he'd done it. Funnily enough he also had fronto-temporal dementia diagnosed soon after after.

Most cases of dementia are diagnosed between the ages of 40 and 65.

,(NHS website)

BruceFull Member
I just love this, another kick the elderly thread.

Someone is in a bad mood. Did the woman with the tea trolley wake you up when she entered the resident's lounge? Ah well, have a milky tea and a nice choccy biccy.

Are there still people out there driving who have never done a test. My grandfather (no longer with us) claimed he was issued a licence with no test, but that was prewar when he got it.

1935 IIRC. So they would have to be 106 or similar now.

Or be the monarch*

*I suspect Charlie has one

A class of limited speed light car like the French have, and even golf carts partially address this. 1 tonne vehicles that accelerate at silly rates is perhaps as big a problem as declining cognitive and motor skills.

Are there still people out there driving who have never done a test. My grandfather (no longer with us) claimed he was issued a licence with no test, but that was prewar when he got it.

My Grandad had one. Died over a decade ago but would be early 90's now so entirely plausible.

Drove trucks in Germany during his (post war) national service - tuition limited to the physical operation of the truck, and how to follow the truck in front at a safe distance.

Given a full UK licence, which he then didn't have cause to use for a number of years, despite having never:

-driven a car

-driven on the left

-had to obey any traffic laws or signs

Despite this he managed to teach my mum to drive, and she passed first time...

I just love this, another kick the elderly thread.

Where?

FIL wouldn't stop driving. Was going out with an oxygen tank on the passenger seat without informing insurance. Wouldn't have been so bad other than he was a crap driver anyway and used to hit immoveable objects regularly.  We took the keys in the end.

It would also stop thousands of young people getting a job. Not all trot off to university and are ferried about by mummy and daddy.

I was being a tad facetious but if folk really wanted to reduce the death rates on the roads, that would be the place to start.

"It’s the sense of entitlement that gets me the most"

Well it was Morningside, there is definitely some sort of test there to ensure you retain any sense of entitlement in perpituity there

Edinburgh also has an excellent bus network it isn't without issues but would make bus users in many other UK cities weep.

Does anyone think the rapid acceleration of ev’s is going to cause more of a problem for people not used to it or will autocity brake solve it? Because a lot of OAP accidents are down to pressing the whole pedal

Pedal Error

Pedal error commonly occurs when vehicles are traveling at low speeds, such as while parking. Drivers under 20 years of age and over 65 experience pedal error crashes about four times more frequently than other age groups https://www.claimsjournal.com/news/national/2015/07/17/264606.htm

Definitely a problem with the general increase in power of cars and automatics.  A lot of wealthy older people with big high powered SUVs. Stamp on the accelerator instead of the brake and they're going to do a lot of damage

 if the driver doesn’t want to engage or give up of their own accord

They don't all have Hondas y'know.

Some drive Toyotas.

It’s never going to happen. Old people vote.

On the point about younger drivers, the inquiry that reported in Wales last week on the deaths of those 4 lads in Eryri raised a graduated driving license as a possibility. That along with a restricted class of vehicle for some drivers may help with issues around young people, jobs, rural areas, reintroducing banned drivers to the roads....etc

Always tough reading stories like these - whether it's young or old drivers involved.  Hits home a bit at the moment as I've got a 17yo son who passed his test in July and an 87yo Dad who was issued his licence as part of his national service in the 50s without ever passing an actual test.  17yo has an insurance issued black box on his Mini which keeps the level of teenage kicks down and helps me sleep at night.  My Dad is coming out of hospital this week after being in for a month - he fell down the stairs at home and has smashed up his pelvis, a couple of ribs and two vertebrae.  He's managing to get up and move now with extreme difficulty but told me that he'll be driving again as soon as he can........  More worry.

My dad got his licence whilst in the army.  He always said there was no test but I guess there may have been decent observation (IIRR, his licence allowed him to drive all sorts of vehicles, inc tracked)

(If he were alive now he'd be coming up for 100)

I think everyone should retest every ten years, yes it would be a pain in the ass, but it would go someway to address poor habits / keep the roads safer

I think my departed grandad never even had a test he was in his 90s when he finally stopped driving and that was because he couldn't lift his foot of the clutch, not that he was a real liability on the road

Raising the minimum age for a driving licence would... remove the most accident-prone drivers.

But are they the most accident-prone because they are young, or because they're inexperienced? If the former then sure, if the latter then it won't make a fig of difference. The stats I've seen state "first year of driving" rather than absolute age.

Pedal error commonly occurs when vehicles are traveling at low speeds, such as while parking.

I've owned an automatic but I never will again - lovely to drive, but I fear the above. ^^^^

My uncles haven't sat a test but they are in Tipperary. They do occasionally drive in the UK though.

I think everyone should retest every ten years, yes it would be a pain in the ass, but it would go someway to address poor habits / keep the roads safer

Yep - it's one of those things that could be brought in in (eg) 2028 and then just rolled upwards so it wouldn't affect anyone currently driving now but it'd become a thing in due course. It'd also give the industry time to scale up to the point (in 2038) when they have to start full retesting.

In reality nothing is going to change in terms of practical driving tests. Currently DVSA are struggling to keep up with demand. My wife is on a waiting list to get a driving test slot. I can’t see the government suddenly doubling the funding for this in an era when they are trying to cut spending.

The government is already pro autonomous vehicles so they will be hoping to do away with the requirement for driving tests in the future. It’s probably not that far off.