[Closed] Capitalism

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But on the other hand you're saying that governments let business interests (be it weapons manufacturers, alcohol, etc) ride rough-shod over the proles. Which is it?

Exactly. Like I said, confused.

I also believe we would have to pay a lot less if we didn't have to sponsor the various governments' misadventures and attempts to manipulate the free market to the advantage of their most vested interests.

Yes, damn those intervening Governments from preventing those controlling the Free markets to the advantage of their own vested interests.

I do accept that as a civilised society we have to provide safety nets for the weakest and most vulnerable.......

Why, ffs, do people always keep on about taxes being necessary provide for the weakest and most vulnerable ?

Our taxes are used to pay for our infrastructures and universal welfare provisions.

If you are [i]really[/i] concerned about "the weakest and most vulnerable" then empower them and provide them with jobs and living wages .......not tax handouts.

WE are a low tax low spending county compared to comparable nations such as Germany and France - to say nothing of the Netherlands and Scandinavia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP

This is just a limp anti-New Labour rant a decade too late

Its actually ani statist argument which will be relevent all the while that we still live in a heavily statist world.

capitalism works well for you doesn't mean it works well for everyone

I don't see big government working that well either.

I would prefer higher taxers to provide better services

That has not historically been the case though. I think that communities and individuals can provide for the needs of society much better than centralised government.

I have to go and watch This Is England and pay some attention to MrsT, back in the morning to continue...

That has not historically been the case though. I think that communities and individuals can provide for the needs of society much better than centralised government.

What? Show an example please. Thats just nonsense.

What? Show an example please. Thats just nonsense

RNLI

RNLI

PMSL! 😀

RNLI - they provide food and housing for the poor do they?

Go on Ernie!....

139,000 lives saved without a [i]single penny[/i] of government money!

The statment made was

provide for the needs of society much better than centralised government.

I take it by your exclusion of emergency services from the [i]needs of community[/i] you're agreeing with me that there is no need for the Fire and Ambulance service to be funded by general taxation run from central or local government

Yes of course ratty, the "needs of society" can be provided in exactly the same way as the RNLI operates........we can abolish taxation !!!

LOL ! 😀

C'mon Ernie - make your point,

whats the difference between the Fire brigade (tax funded) and the RNLI (entirely independent charity)?

Which of the two provides what is described as the exemplar, best rescue service of its type in the world?

Isn't giving money to charity pretty socialist anyway? Surely according to capitalism if something is worth doing there should be a profit in it no?

without a single penny of government money!

Gift Aid?

If you want an example of what happens when emergency services get run by private enterprise, look at how the fire services of New York used to run. If you didn't have insurance, they weren't putting out your house.

Gift Aid?

Oh no you've been done [i]again[/i], Labby! 😆

Carry on though, it's funny.

Zulu-Eleven - Member

C'mon Ernie - make your point,

whats the difference between the Fire brigade (tax funded) and the RNLI (entirely independent charity)?

Size, complexity, number of callouts, coists involved.

~quite a lot really

Erm, TJ.....if the Fire Brigade was funded by voluntary contributions, I [i]think[/i] there might still be a need for taxation.

As the "needs of society" go a little beyond just sea and fire rescue.

Although I look forward to ratty explaining how we are all going to "muck in together" and therefore taxation won't be necessary........I had no idea ratty was a communist 😀

size, complexity, number of callouts, coists involved

Bollocks, thats simply a matter of scale - RNLI is by definition concentrated on coastal communities, the local [b]community[/b] clubs together to provide a service to all - absolute proof that communities and individuals [b]can[/b] provide for the needs of society much better than centralised government.

therefore taxation won't be necessary..

TJ - you asked for an example of communities providing for the needs of society, and you've been given a proven, established successful one!

the community clubs together to provide a service to all

Sounds very socialist to me...

So tell me ratty, since the RNLI is mostly staffed by volunteers, will most public sectors workers suddenly become volunteers ?

Will [i]you[/i] be giving up a few days every week to teach in a school or go on the beat as a policeman or maybe repair a road ?

Don't forget, you'll still need time to go fund raising to pay for school buildings, materials, electricity, etc.

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The fire brigade is already [b]mostly[/b] staffed by volunteers who have full time jobs Ernie.

WWill you be giving up a few days every week to teach in a school or go on the beat as a policeman

Already done it luvvie!

what have you done for your society ?

TJ - you asked for an example of communities providing for the needs of society, and you've been given a proven, established successful one!

So the RNLI provide food and shelter for the needy do they?

totally differnt to fire service anyway.

A few more wily sea dogs and we can get rid of the coastguard.

- however there's no doubt that the role of the state can be reigned in substantially and replaced with "big society".

Really - I think you will find there is lots of doubt - infact there is good experience to say it wont and can't

hahahahahahahah TJ

you asked for an example - you got one

totally differnt to fire service anyway.

Yeah TJ - a fast response emergency service that saves peoples lives is [i]totally[/i] different from the fire service! I suppose mountain rescue is [i]totally different[/i] too, and cave rescue...

Ratty - you are weird.

How does a teh RNLI show your point

I think that communities and individuals can provide for the needs of society much better than centralised government.

So becaues the RNLI can provide its very limited service communities and individuals can proved hospitals, services for the disabled, food and clothing and that sort of thing?

How about mental health services? Child protection, care for the elderly

Ridiculous even by your standards

very limited service

I presume that by very limited, you mean limited to the sea?

I guess a bit like how mountain rescue offers a [i]very limited [/i] service, in that they only deal with people who need rescuing?

Who mentioned hospitals and care services? you asked for [u]an example[/u]

what have you done for your society ?

Hey.......you're making it sound as if not everyone would rush to help to volunteer in your brave new world 😕

........you don't feel very confident about your idea after all ?

Yeah I'd be up for it........I've always fancied being a doctor. And I guess there'll be plenty of vacancies when no one is getting paid anymore. Maybe brain surgeon........wad ju reckon eh ?

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Yup - you got it. So how are you going to provide mental health services on your model?

I suppose mountain rescue is totally different too

Would that be the mountain rescue that relies fairly heavily on support from RAF helicopters, gets quite a bit of equipment bought by the police and this year is recieving £300,000 from the scottish government?

In fairness to Labby, he has come up with one example, and it's quite a good one. Shame he can't quite get all his facts right though. THe RNLI isn't the only aquartic rescue service; the Coastguard does that job too. It's nice to have the RNLI as support though, and it's good that peoples' benevolence helps make it happen. As Grum mentions, Socialism in action!

Trouble with your 'big society' idea though, is that it's far too dangerous to let public opinion dictate what services should be provided. For example, many drug and alcohol support and rehabilitation services wouldn't get much public support, as they're not 'worthy' enough causes for many. And countless other 'unfashionable' but vital services and support organisations would simply cease to exist if it was left to the Public Will in such a selfish and greedy society. Hence the necessity for State Intervention.

Personally, I'd like to see the State increased to include things like transport and utilities (like they used to be), but no way is the State too big, as the greedy bastard selfish Tories would have people believe.

As for taxation; Society benefiting as a whole V a tiny minority with manipulative power and influence getting even wealthier and more powerful? No contest.

Tax the bastards to their knees!

A vote for Elfin is a vote for [i]Humanity[/i].

TJ - you asked for [u]an example[/u]

Now, is the RNLI an example of communities and individuals providing for the needs of society much better than centralised government, or is it not?

Ernie - where ddi I say or suggest that [b]all[/b] services could be replaced by voluntary ones? oh, no, I didnt did I!

Ernie - you should be a orthopaedic surgeon - you would find the toolkit very familiar. Hammers, drills . screws I bet you would be good as well

Now, is the RNLI an example of communities and individuals providing for the needs of society much better than centralised government, or is it not?

Nope - because there is no comparator. We don't know if centralised government organising it would be better.

its also a rubbish example.

Its a very small scale, specialised and limited service. How about mental health services? How will you rRNLI model deal with them?

Sorry TJ, you're falling apart on this one

There are extensive comparators, since most of the rest of the developed world provide their coastal rescue from government funding and none, none, have the extensive, reliable and efficient service that we offer in the UK, best in the world!

I never suggested replacing mental health - you're relying on reductio ad absurdum again!

its a very small scale, specialised and limited service

covering the entire UK coastline to 50 miles offshore and rescuing an average of 22 people per day, yeah, ****ing tiny!

Now Raynet is a very small scale, specialised and limited service - the RNLI isnt!

Zulu-Eleven - Member

Who mentioned hospitals and care services?

The "needs of society" is what was mentioned.

As in Torminalis comment : [i]"I think that communities and individuals can provide for the needs of society much better than centralised government"[/i].

You don't think hospitals and care services satisfy a need in society ? 😀

Ernie - TJ asked for [u]an example[/u]!

I dint claim the solution to all, I offered the example he asked for - and you clearly just don't like it when I'm right 😉

Or are you suggesting that emergency rescue services are [b]not[/b] one of the needs of society?

Are you suggesting that emergency rescue services are not one of the needs of society?

Of course they are.......and ? so ? what ?

I have already made the point : [i]"Erm, TJ.....if the Fire Brigade was funded by voluntary contributions, I think there might still be a need for taxation"[/i].

Communities and individuals [i]cannot[/i] provide for the needs of society much better than centralised government".

Communities and individuals cannot provide for the needs of society much better than centralised government

Agreed, not in current circumstances. Cameron is cynically borrowing and corrupting language from Robert Putnam's work on 'social capital' and using it to justify cutbacks in government expenditure and hoping that the voluntary sector will patch up the mess. Sadly, it is not going to happen.

 

Stop poking the lefties. 😆

Almost every economist who's ever written anything worth reading addresses efficiency and welfare. It's a fairly recent thing for people to be saying "This bloke is really rich. That's dead good for you poor folk that is."

The broad socialist planned economy VS capitalism arguments are dead and buried. It's only really sensible arguing about how we manage the capitalist system, until someone has some radical new ideas.

For what it's worth, free trade and globalisation would probably be denounced by a lot of people on here, because it's generally supported by the evil right, but to me it looks to me very much like a system that's making us poorer in order to make the very poor in the developing world richer.

you clearly just don't like it when I'm right

The broad socialist planned economy VS capitalism arguments are dead and buried. It's only really sensible arguing about how we manage the capitalist system, until someone has some radical new ideas.

Erm, it's not so much about having new ideas, but developing a system that suits our society more effectively, using elements of Socialism and Capitalism etc where appropriate.

[b]Elfinism[/b] FTW! 😀

Which is kind of what LabZulu is trying to say, but he can't bring himself to mention Socialism for fear it will shatter his fragile right-wing persona.

.....he can't bring himself to mention Socialism for fear it will shatter his fragile right-wing persona.

😕 There absolutely nothing "fragile" about ratty's right-wing persona. HTF did you come to that conclusion ?

He is utterly and passionately committed to an ideology which is very firmly and solidly rooted on the far right of the political spectrum.

He is the only person that I know of on this forum, who makes Margaret Thatcher appear left-wing. He is certainly to the right of National Socialism (although I have never witnessed the slightest hint of racism, social Darwinism, homophobia, or eugenism from him)

To suggest to an extreme libertarian such as ratty that he might have even slightly socialist tendencies, is I reckon fairly insulting. Ratty is as pure an anti-socialist as you're ever likely to get. He is probably best described as an Anarcho-Capitalist (despite the ironic and rather contradictory fact that traditional anarchism is on the extreme left of the political spectrum)

And for reasons which I don't completely understand, and despite the fact that his views couldn't be more diametrically opposed to mine, I really quite like the guy. Maybe it's that I find his childlike naivety and enthusiasm for his fairytale capitalism enchanting ? 💡

Very few on here are arguing for a state planned economy from what I have seen. I think most of us lefties would prefer a Scandanovian model [or german] of higher taxes and better public services. Most of us think it is unlikely that vast swathes of society will volunteer to do ALL the things a society needs. RNLI is an interesting one as it certainly demonstartes that it is notimpossible. However, I find it hard to believe a similiar model [volunteers only] will work in general delivery of assistance. The samaritans do some great work as does MIND but I doubt either think they can widen their base to support all people with mental health from volunteers. There would need to be some delivery from the government unless we want private mental health care which would be more costly despite being more efficient. It is like the need to make profit adds a cost to delivery charges 😯 [you will bite there wont you?]
I am also not aware of any country reducing the public service and replacing it with a ground swell of popular positive action. It could happen in deeply cynical UK but I am not overly optomistic.