I am well aware it's worn to commemorate the casualties of war, and not a celebration of 'victory', (though I find the concept that there could be a winner of war a strange one).
Would the Germans appreciate this though? Is it a symbol that is known in other parts of Europe or might it lead to interesting, difficult maybe, conversations? Nuremberg if that makes any odds.
Poppy fashionists are mental! 😆
Most likely no-one will give a hoot. why you'd bother is another question.
Indeed, the concept of a "winner" is a difficult one to grasp, but the victory was a necessary evil.
And I would say wear your poppy with pride, I believe Germany also have a similar day to pay their respects to the casualties of war. And isn't a German politician attending this year's Remembrance service? So they are well aware of what the day means to us.
https://intpolicydigest.org/2015/06/08/the-difficulty-of-remembrance-in-germany/
I'd personally take a morning look at the local way of things.
It's also worth remembering that you can remember without a poppy, it's symbolism in many ways.
Most Germans are ashamed of the war and the whole Nazi thing. They try to distance themselves from it by referring it to ‘Nazi Germany’. You wouldn’t have a problem with wearing a poppy in Germany as they are generally a very respectful bunch.
Most likely no-one will give a hoot. why you’d bother is another question.
Care to tell us why you would wish to do this.
Seosamh77, I don't wear it as a fashion thing, I wear it for the right reasons. My partner's grandad list his brother in WW2, he's 92, and it still affects him to this day.
mikewsmith, thanks for the link. I'll leave it at home. Cheers.
Care to tell us why you would wish to do this.
cause people fought for my right to be able to? 😆
That and I find remembrance wrapped up in militarism distasteful.
Because millions died and anything that puts that fact into peoples minds, particularly the people who weild the power to decide to to start wars, has to be worth it.
Both of my grandads were in the war, one on the Atlantic convoys and one in the Middle East. It was important to them, neither ever wanted to see the like of it again.
I got my answer, I'm not going to get into a massive debate, feel free to knock yourselves out though.
Remember who chose the poppy, and when… it might not be the right symbol for German use. I know we now use it to symbolise the sacrifices made by all our troops, in all wars… but WW1 history, and the Haigs in particular, is not as clear cut as Nazi Germany over there.
One of my grandads was too, not really seeing how that is relevant.
I'm all for putting the history of the world wars and more modern and older wars in peoples minds. Not really seeing how poppies do that particularly successfully nor without bias.
Remember who chose the poppy, and when… it might not be the right symbol for German use.
This
Because millions died and anything that puts that fact into peoples minds, particularly the people who weild the power to decide to to start wars, has to be worth it.
You need to decide if it's worth it, if it will have an impact or if it will just upset people. The article I linked to was at least an introduction to the issues involved.
Quite a few time in the UK i've not ended up wearing a poppy, I've put money into the legion collecting tins though. It does not mean I don't remember and do not know what has happened and gone on before..
Mike, I read it and agree with you and Kelvin. Im happy to respect the opinions and sensitivities of my hosts.
I do wonder about all this remembrance stuff glorifying service to authority and self-sacrifice. I bet few people can adequately explain what actually led to WW2 and fewer WW1 let alone the poor bastards who lost their lives in these conflicts. Energy should be going into avoiding war and creating equality within and between nations.
Sure, wear a poppy in Germany but it might distract from you having more meaningful and productive conversations.
I wonder if anyone in Germany would actually know what the poppy means, though? AFAIK outside the UK it doesn't mean anything.
Just wear a 'poppy' wristband like I do. You'll still be remembering & people don't notice wristbands.
Shouldn't be a talking point.
wear a white one ?
or don't they "exist" any more
AFAIK outside the UK it doesn’t mean anything.
And I’m pretty sure it does. You might be surprised to know that a great many people from other nations tha Britain and Germany fought on both sides during both conflicts. The poppy was chosen because it grew in vast numbers on the churned up battlefields after hostilities finished. It’s a symbol of loss and sacrifice.
Of course if one wishes to adopt a moralistic approach and not wear one, that’s entirely up to them.
I was wondering similar about Italy as we are in Rome.
You might be surprised to know that a great many people from other nations tha Britain and Germany fought on both sides during both conflicts.
That’s really insightful. Thanks.
Balls!
Wearing a poppy is an acknowledgement of all of the sacrifices that were made, and all that are being so.
Lives lost
Lives unlived
Loves lost
Loves longed for
it's not about winners, it's only ever been about losers.
I'd wear a poppy with pride wherever i were because it is right to acknowledge the sacrifice it represents.
People often make bad decisions, and it often doesn't make much of a difference. War is an obvious theatre where it does.
Our forebears fought under orders and died doing so. The rights or wrongs of the orders don't negate the individual toll it took.
For me it has always been a celebration, if not the quite right word, of the sadness of it all.
Can I assume this is the annual "fight about the poppy" thread then? Maybe the mods could rename it in that case and add a sticky.
Because millions died and anything that puts that fact into peoples minds, particularly the people who weild the power to decide to to start wars, has to be worth it.
How's that working out for you?
You might be surprised to know that a great many people from other nations tha Britain and Germany fought on both sides during both conflicts.
Well, I never realised that 🙄
The poppy was chosen because it grew in vast numbers on the churned up battlefields after hostilities finished. It’s a symbol of loss and sacrifice.
It's a symbol of loss and sacrifice in the UK (and maybe Australia and NZ?). Is it a symbol anywhere else?
I go to Germany a fair bit for work, personally I wouldn't. If it's even noticed, it will only really serve to make others a bit uncomfortable. It's just a subject that's dealt with differently.
It’s just a subject that’s dealt with differently.
Foreigners doing things wrong again. Thank god we're leaving the EU so we can take back control of our remembrances!
Can I assume this is the annual “fight about the poppy” thread then?
Well it will be won't it? Every bloody year we get it.
I can't see the point in Mothers Day/Fathers Day/Gay Pride Day/Heterosexual Day/Can't Make My Mind up Day but we still have them.
If you want to wear a poppy in Germany or anywhere else for that matter just bloody wear one! & If your'e 'afraid' of offending anyone, make a story up. Like your Great paternal Grandad was German & was killed in the WW1 but your maternal Grandad was British & killed in WW2 so your remembering both. Can't 'offend' anyone then can you?
Care to tell us why you would wish to do this.
My father fought in WW2, He was evacuated from Dunkirk and fought in North Africa. Was wounded and captured. Spent 3 years in various POW camps, half starved and got dysentery.
A father of a good friend of mine, fought in the Far East, caught some infection that left him blind in later life.
My Grandfather fought in WW1, was gassed and used crutches for several years after coming back from the Western Front.
I don't agree with criticising people for not wearing poppies, but what I find more staggering are the millennial's who seem to have re-written history and have no understanding of the danger that the absolute fabric of our democracy was under threat from Germany.
I don’t agree with criticising people for not wearing poppies, but what I find more staggering are the millennial’s who seem to have re-written history and have no understanding of the danger that the absolute fabric of our democracy was under threat from Germany.
Nailed.
but what I find more staggering are the millennial’s who seem to have re-written history and have no understanding of the danger that the absolute fabric of our democracy was under threat from Germany.
I might be talking to the wrong people there but this is not something I have heard or seen.
I might be talking to the wrong people there but this is not something I have heard or seen.
Plenty on that thread.
“Lest we forget”
It seems many already have. I wasnt taught WW1/2 history at school, but my kids are these days, which is a good thing.
Im ex RAF, and generally you won’t find more “anti war” people than the military themselves in this country.
Remember the huge sacrifice & try not to let it happen again.
^^ what tomd said. I've spent the equivalent of two years in Germany over the last 7, and I've never seen anyone wear a poppy. Don't think they're ignorant about it, though; they just don't feel the need to make a public display of things.
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I'm firmly in the Jon Snow (err, the newsreader, not the other one) camp for poppy wearing. Over my lifetime I've seen division across the UK grow while Europe grows stronger, and IMHO too many nationalistic, older, Brexit-eager people see the poppy as a symbol as victory, not as remembrance.
Just because I'm not wearing one doesn't mean I haven't made a donation to the RBL, and over the next few weeks the consequences of war will weigh on my mind rather more than usual. But more than likely I'll listen to some Eric Bogle songs and be reminding that not only was it a waste of lives on both sides, it was a spectacularly pointless waste of lives because we've not learned from it.
I think Germany probably has, and that's why I wouldn't wear a poppy there. I'd feel embarrassed about it.
I think Germany probably has, and that’s why I wouldn’t wear a poppy there. I’d feel embarrassed about it.
I'd be embarrassed if my people had built factories that were used to murder millions of men, women and children.
Plenty on that thread.
Well Having scanned the first page it seems you might be confusing rewriting with taking a critical approach to looking at events.
I’d be embarrassed if my people had built factories that were used to murder millions of men, women and children.
I assume you have a similar stance on the age of Empire, the slaughter of indigenous populations, slavery and recent events such as the transportation of children to Australia.
A cycle of blame and shaming nations for what was generationally a very long time ago is a lesson that should have been learnt from that era.
If I was to look back a little more critically we didn't win WW1 we just didn't loose as badly.
I’d be embarrassed if my people had built factories that were used to murder millions of men, women and children.
I'm not sure what your point is, other than just a quick bash at the Germans. An overwhelming majority are absolutely appalled at what happened, and their relationship with their own armed forces is uneasy to this day because of what their armed forces have done in the past. More so possibly than any other country I can think of (most powerful empires have had their armed forces engaged in at least some activities in the past that would be considered morally doubtful today, though not at the same scale, of course).
I'm not playing down what the Germans (and their allies...) did in WWII, at all, however, and I don't think that the huge majority of Germans would either. They really are very aware of what happened.
A cycle of blame and shaming nations for what was generationally a very long time ago is a lesson that should have been learnt from that era.
Another very good point. The politics that ended up with WWII was pretty much a consequence of some poor (with hindsight) decisions made in the name of peace to end WWI.
Remembrance is personal. I prefer the wristband. And I don’t have to swap it between outfits. I’d wear it in Germany. Or go for a Bluet instead.
Im always a bit skeptical if the annual BBC poppy check on every program. Remembrance is personal and if you have left your poppy on another jacket, so what.
My brother in law lost a quite a few colleagues and friends, of course one should remember sacrifice. Lives unlived.
If I was to look back a little more critically we didn’t win WW1 we just didn’t loose as badly.
That's what Hitler said.
I assume you have a similar stance on the age of Empire, the slaughter of indigenous populations, slavery and recent events such as the transportation of children to Australia.
When you look back on the age of Empire's, the UK actually did a better job than most. However, as LP Hartley said,“The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there.” It's impossible to look at things from 200 years ago in a modern context.
Some of the people who were both perpetrators and victims of The Holocaust are still alive. It's not ancient history.
I’d be embarrassed if my people had built factories that were used to murder millions of men, women and children.
Of course the UK didn't build (or take over) any factories to build Lancasters, Spitfires, etc. and didn't fly over to Germany to bomb the c**p out of towns and cities like the one I live in right now. :rolleyes: Why bomb factories when you can send 200 Lancasters to drop incendiary bombs and make 60% of the residents homeless instead? In one night.
Wear a poppy, nobody will even bat an eyelid. If they do, say it's a symbol of remembrance of those that were sacrificed. The Germans also have a remembrance on 11/11.
I've only seen a few wearing poppies, and they were all Brits on business trips. But we're an international organisation. Most probably didn't or wouldn't have either noticed.
Another very good point. The politics that ended up with WWII was pretty much a consequence of some poor (with hindsight) decisions made in the name of peace to end WWI.
In reality, there was one World War, from 1914 to 1990.
The Cold War was directly linked to WW1.
Churchill wanted to invade Russia in 1945. He said we would have to deal with them sometime and we had the men and equipment available.
He was right. It took 45 years to defeat the Soviets.
I grew up in the 80's, the threat of Global Annihilation was very real.
Would it of made more sense to of dealt with it in 1945?
That’s what Hitler said.
Does it make it less true? A war that killed millions for no gain or movement, it cost the UK and france a huge amount. The follow up to that sowed the seeds for problems in Germany, Short sighted politics of revenge and punishment.
Some of the people who were both perpetrators and victims of The Holocaust are still alive. It’s not ancient history.
And so are the people in the last part of my statement. It happened in the 50's.
Germany has gone a long way to come back from a very desperate position, the separation of the country and the east german regime happened.
In the UK and other countries there is a over simplistic view of the 2 world wars that is spoon fed to the willing.
He was right. It took 45 years to defeat the Soviets.
I grew up in the 80’s, the threat of Global Annihilation was very real.
Would it of made more sense to of dealt with it in 1945?
Did we defeat them or did they defeat themselves? Invading Russia, well what could possibly go wrong there? What would we have replaced them with? What gave the UK the right to determine who ruled the countries of the world?
Of course the UK didn’t build (or take over) any factories to build Lancasters, Spitfires, etc. and didn’t fly over to Germany to bomb the c**p out of towns and cities like the one I live in right now. :rolleyes: Why bomb factories when you can send 200 Lancasters to drop incendiary bombs and make 60% of the residents homeless instead? In one night.
What choice did we have?
What should we of done?
Surrender?
Comparing strategic bombing with mass genocide?
In the UK and other countries there is a over simplistic view of the 2 world wars that is spoon fed to the willing.
I have read dozens of books on the 2 World Wars.
I do not have a simplistic view of them.
However, in 1940 what choice did we have? What should we of done?
