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Imagine all the facts they would gain though.
What would the good folk of STW have to say to these people?
I'd tell them they should be claiming asylum in the first safe country. As they haven't and are economic migrants I'd tell them to go to the British Embassy in Paris and apply for a visa.
irc - MemberAs they haven't and are economic migrants
Well if they are all merely "economic migrants" and not war refugees then you need to explain for example how come there weren't hundreds of Syrians in Calais 5 years ago.
Can you do that irc ?
Err we're full up....sorry but this being a small over- crowded small island hope you understand... thanks ...
Well if they are all merely "economic migrants" and not war refugees then you need to explain for example how come there weren't hundreds of Syrians in Calais 5 years ago.
Once they get to a safe country but choose not to claim asylum they become economic migrants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asylum_shopping
There is a great deal of concern in Germany as to how these people will be accommodated
I'm sure there is but hats offf to the Germans that they have chosen to do the humane thing first and worry about the details later. They put us to shame.
Will London be Mega City One with 800 million population one day? 😯
There was once a PM in the far east that saw the current situation coming to UK & EU. According to him just merely by population alone you would be dominated. Simple. 😮
It's a bit like salt innit? A little salt on your food taste good but if you consume a lot of it you will be sick.
irc - MemberOnce they get to a safe country but choose not to claim asylum they become economic migrants.
So irc you can't explain why there weren't hundreds of Syrian "economic migrants" in Calais 5 years ago.
There's a surprise.
irc - MemberOnce they get to a safe country but choose not to claim asylum they become economic migrants.
Mince. It is a consideration- the rules say they should stop where they arrive- but that doesn't mean they suddenly become an economic migrant!
The whole "first country" thing is obvious nonsense, mind... Obviously unfair, some countries are far easier to get to, why should they bear a disproportionate burden? Not to mention that there's perfectly legitimate reasons why an asylum seeker might be better travelling on to a second country- language barriers, existing communities, family or friends already there. The better the support network they can access, the less burden they'll be on the state. It's an incredibly simplistic approach that doesn't really work for anyone except for countries that are harder to get to.
I wouldn't normally suggest the Guardian as a source of balanced information but I found this article interesting: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/aug/10/10-truths-about-europes-refugee-crisis
A good question would be how can we help?
Reading that guardian article it is staggering the amount of Syrian refugees currently in Lebanon.
Is there any reason why we (ie NATO/UN) can't take over and secure a few of the emptier cities on the fringes of the conflict zones to act as temporary accommodation for those fleeing the area?
Surely it would be easier and safer to get aid to a few secured locations than forcing people all over the place where many come to harm or are being exploited by traffickers etc?
[quote=deadlydarcy opined]Imagine all the facts they would gain though.
Imagined facts are his raison d'etre so I shall leave that to him.
Surprisingly still no source for his claim after 24 hours googling 8)
The whole "first country" thing is obvious nonsense,
Not nonsense. The law.
. It's an incredibly simplistic approach that doesn't really work for anyone except for countries that are harder to get to.
Like the UK.
Germany is expecting 800'000 applications this year. If the UK was as easy to travel to we could expect a similar number. How many would you say we should take? Year after year.
We should help. By funding assistance in neighbouring countries using our aid budget - one of the biggest in the world.
The dublin convention - which exist primarily to stop assylum seekers applying in different EU countries - states that assylum should be applied for in the country which did biggest part in helping the person arrive in the EU.
That may be the first country but it may not . That is why it has clear protocols in place to allow the exchange of people so it is not true that they have to apply where ever they land
Our govt trots this out and the right wing press trot it out [ beacuse we are not the forst country if we wer ewe would hate it and tell the truth] but it it just not true
Can you give me the law please that says they must apply ?
Its just another one of those EU claims that we have all heard said so often that we think its true when it is just not the case.
They do not have to apply at the country of entry
Imagine you enter in Greece but you have family in France and you lived there for 5 years for example
you apply in France
FWIW Germany is allowing an extra 800 k this year due to need its ease of getting to it has nothing to do with this decision.
People look back at the holocaust and ask how we let it happen. Now I think we know.
DrJ. get a grip. This is nothing like the holocaust. Not even close.
They do not have to apply at the country of entry
Imagine you enter in Greece but you have family in France and you lived there for 5 years for example
you apply in France
Well by using family as the criteria - since the vast majority of existing Syrian asylum seekers are not in the UK then the vast majority of new ones will have family elsewhere in the EU. So should apply there.
Still waiting for anyone to say how many hundred thousand asylum seekers they think the UK should take.
DrJ. get a grip. This is nothing like the holocaust. Not even close.
The similarity is that people in desperate need are being denied help due to selfishness and willful ignoring of their situation
say how many hundred thousand asylum seekers they think the UK should take
Which ones are you ready to send back to Assad or ISIS?
Your understanding of the law is wrong are you accepting this or just ignoring it ?
My whole reply was saying you were wrong about the law and yet you did not even mention it 🙄
There is no "family criteria" to apply and your grasp of the law is matched only by your compassion.
DrJ. get a grip. This is nothing like the holocaust. Not even close.
You have missed his point , gotten hyperbolic and then asked him to get a grip
Oh the irony.
He is suggesting some people are callous bastards who dont care about the suffering of others so they turn a blind eye.
EDIT:Must type quicker as it now looks like I copied Dr J
Nobody turned a blind eye in WW2 - we were fighting the war if you racall. The horrors of the holocaust were not discovered until after the war was over and we are still trying to learn the lessons 70 years on. And in anycase the sheer scale of today's crisis, which is mostly driven by economic migration, with a much lower proportion due to genuine asylum seeking, is just not even in the same galaxy, let alone the same universe.
Also we have tried to intervene in recent years, albeit for the wrong reasons in a lot of cases, and the general public have given the clear message to our politicians to not intervene in foreign affairs and in particular regime change, hence causing a lot of the migrant problems we're having to deal with today as our politicians are now paralysed with fear to do anything. They upset the public if we try to solve the root causes, and upset the public if they try to deal with the aftermath of our incapacity to do anything (in the context of protecting our boarders which is a popular view amongst the general populous). Oh the irony indeed. Tragic irony.
Perhaps it was being trolled, but I've noticed a large increase in commentators on the Guardian website posting [u]against[/u] mass immigration. Frank Fields has also written an article today in the (dareisayit) Mail on Sunday which paints the scale of the Calais problem in big letters.
We could soon be heading to a position in which the only interest groups who desire a continuation of mass immigration are big business and the radical left.
The guardian website has more RW folk than the DM website
Trolls want a reaction not affirmation
Decent people will always be willing to help the needy
irc - MemberStill waiting for anyone to say how many hundred thousand asylum seekers they think the UK should take.
And I'm still waiting for you to explain if they are all just "economic migrants" as you claim and not war refugees then why weren't there hundreds of Syrians in Calais 5 years ago?
It's a simple easy-to-understand question and yet you won't answer it irc.
Of course we all know that the answer is because there was no civil war in Syria 5 years ago but you can't bring yourself to say that because it would demolish your nonsensical claim that they are just "economic migrants".
Glitch post, PTO
Not read this thread, but there's going to be one (a camp of displaced people) up the road from me in the Netherlands soon. I might go visit.
250 people, apparently, outside a village.
I read a lot on this subject from numerous news sources and we drive through the tunnel at least once a month so we see the groups of people having about on the roadside. JY you are right I am making an assumption about nationality based on TV, reports and my own eyes but when the faces are very black and the news reports speak of sub Sharan African nations continually it's an obvious conclusion. If you think sub Saharan Africans are the minority show me some evidence which contradicts the dozens of news reports and images which show very much the opposite. As a final note why was the camp nicknamed "The Jungle", not very Middle Eastern is it ? Saw another documentary piece this time from France24 where the French military have 3000 troops in Algeria trying to stem the flow of immigrants from further South who are being trafficked by Islamist extremists as a way of finding their conflict.
Going forward there are going to be very few if any Syrians in Calais as Germany has said it will take all Syrians who apply. IMO asylum seekers from Middle East have been favouring other counties like Sweden who've been taking larger numbers. The Ger,and have been very naive in their ha doing of this as their statement has created a huge draw and sudden made rush which is overwhelming the countries en-route. Hungary has reacted with razor wire and will. Hold a permanent 100 mile 4 meter high wall.
Out the rest of today will catch up on threads tonight.
most of them are educated :
If you think sub Saharan Africans are the minority show me some evidence which contradicts the dozens of news reports and images which show very much the opposite
Ok its an appeal to authority suggesting the media are some sort of impartial agency of objective scientific fact based reporting. Can we just accept that as a flawed premise and move on the next part.
You were telling us how you had referenced your own claim. Now you seem to think you say something we all disagree with and we then need to refute this with actual evidence 😯 For someone degree educated and with a postgrad from Oxford I struggle to believe you were taught this poorly.
[b]Its your claim you prove it. [/b] That really is basic stuff.
Even JHJ tries to do this why not just put a picture of some "faces that are very black" as proof of your claim? I bet Jimmy Saville met some very black people and the queen must have 🙄
Can we not just issue border staff with a sort of Dulux colour chart, with a sliding scale of browness? Say from scottish blue-hued brilliant white, through to darkie double espresso. They can make any decisions on who to let in based on that
overcrowded are we ? --population of uk is about 60 million or so , if each person were to stand on a piece of ground three foot by three foot how much space would we all take up ?
be just under 20 square miles -4miles by 5 miles --thats not a huge area --the idea that we are overcrowded is a myth peddled by the usual crowd......its meaningless--and for what its worth this cuountry has always been a place of immigration....history checks that out...
[quote=rudebwoy said]
be just under 20 square miles -4miles by 5 miles --thats not a huge area --the idea that we are overcrowded is a myth peddled by the usual crowd......its meaningless--and for what its worth this cuountry has always been a place of immigration....history checks that out...
Oops, ignore me
These things are so simple, yet beyond Jamba
https://www.freemovement.org.uk/why-do-the-migrants-in-calais-want-to-come-to-the-uk/
Broken-shire also reported that the top five nationalities of those in Calais are Syrian, Eritrean, Sudanese, Iranian and Iraqi. This is similar to the top five countries of origin of those crossing the Mediterranean, reported by UNHCR to be Syria (34%), Afghanistan (12%), Eritrea (12%), Somalia (5%), Nigeria (5%). The Syrians are self evidently refugees.
But Jungle is a very African sounding word and that clearly trumps actual facts.
Sssssssh - if we acknowledge that they're a people fleeing a campaign of relentless brutality, with no end in sight, we might actually have to try and help them.
Best portay them as a bunch of scroungers instead.
Hey.... It worked with disabled people
Dont forget the pretend they are not disabled/ATOS fitness to work test whose analogy is to pretend they are not refugees /or from Syria so they dont really need help after all . Oh and of course we cannot afford it- how else can we afford inheritance tax cuts ?
Still waiting for anyone to say how many hundred thousand asylum seekers they think the UK should take.
Since 2011 we have had 194 asylum applications per 100,000 people, Sweden has had 2,359. We're one of the largest and richest countries in Europe, and the world, so we should really be leading the way. If we took in double as many as we do currently, then we'd be on par with France. If we took in four times as many as we do currently then we'd be on par with Germany.
There's something incredibly broken in this country's 'Little Englander' mindset, that is unfortunately so common, that thinks that we are only place affected by this, or that we're somehow doing more than the rest of Europe, when the opposite is clearly true.
I'd recommend that everyone watch 'the Lorry Jumpers' on channel 4. It's starting on +1 shortly, or get it on OD.
Put a human face to the people we apparently should continue our lofty indifference too, and regard like a virus. See the conditions they live in, and hear what they've been through, the journeys they've made, the horrors they've endured, and see if you still think that their plight is something we should remain so uncaring and cold-hearted too
Makes me ashamed to be British
Just finished watching Lorry Jumpers. [b]Every single person featured is from Africa[/b]. JY and Northwind I'd echo @binners recommendation to watch the programme.
@binners we have an asylum application system, it is not necessary to live in a camp in Calais and try and enter the UK illegally. You can apply for asylum at a British Embassy that way however you don't get free housing and welfare whilst your application is processed.
I see Merkel and her ministers are now openly speaking of suspending Schengen passport free travel as a result of the migrant crises.
jambalaya - MemberAs a final note why was the camp nicknamed "The Jungle", not very Middle Eastern is it ?
The first Jungle was established in 2002. Relevance of the name to today's situation = 0. Your evidence is strong.
Every single person featured is from Africa
Are you now claiming that there are only Aficans there or simply telling me that only Africans appeared on the programme?
I guess the former as it is the one that is factually incorrect and that is basically what you do , get things wrong.
Still waiting for your actual figures and sources whilst you ignore the sources provided that refute your unevidenced [ if we ignore appeals to the media that is] claims- even then you still have to be highly selective - see below.
Anyway its clear to see the suffering has really stirred your empathy for your fellow man, its almost as strong as your ability to handle data now.
Really brings a tear to my eye as I can tell the suffering did to yours.
Pft you and facts eh Jam its a situation where you just see what you want to see and ignore everything else
here are some more for you to ignore
Remember Jungle eh it sounds very African eh 🙄
http://time.com/3983113/calais-migrants-camp-jungle/
Every day, thousands of migrants, most of them Syrians, Sudanese, Eritreans and Afghans, try to board a train or ferry for the U.K. in Calais, France.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29074736
Where are the migrants coming from?
The UN High Commissioner for Refugees' representative in France, Philippe Leclerc, said most of the migrants in Calais were fleeing violence in countries such as Syria, Eritrea, Somalia and Afghanistan.
http://news.sky.com/story/1527131/calais-migrant-crisis-what-you-need-to-know
Where do they come from?
Countries where there is unrest or civil war. So Somalia, Sudan, Eritrea and Syria.
Syria took over from Afghanistan for the top country for asylum-seekers in the world in 2013. There are smaller groups from Ethiopia, Egypt, Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran.
I know what you mean Jammers. Why would anyone seek asylum from Eritrea? Looks great! Sounds like a [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eritrea-is-africas-north-korea--but-uk-bureaucrats-wont-accept-its-citizens-are-refugees-10478885.html ]holiday camp[/url]
jambalaya - MemberJust finished watching Lorry Jumpers. Every single person featured is from Africa.
As evidence of "who was on Lorry Jumpers" that's excellent. As evidence of the population of the camp, it's [i]quite a bit[/i] less good than DrJ's link.
.
I was just about to type some more stuff in an edit to that post. But JY made it weird.