How come road riders don't use triathlon style steep seat tubes if it's that much of an advantage?
I didn't say how much of an advantage it was, did I?
Comfort is the reason. Otherwise we'd all be riding around like Graham Obree.
Helium.
If I tied helium balloons all over my bike would I be quicker uphill?
Are pigeons made of helium then ?
molgrips please stop!
Re the pigeons - if you put the lorry on scales and the pigeons took off inside it, the scales would read the same, because each pigeon is supported by a downdraught from its wings, which would in turn result in an air current pushing down on the bed of the lorry.
UNLESS the lorry is big enough for the pigeons to glide, in which case each bird would be supported by the buoyancy of a low pressure area above its wings.. in which case the lorry would indeed weigh less.
I think the issue is that we don't have a concrete definition for weight. We were taught that weight was the downward force resulting from gravity. No downward force = no weight.. but that doesn't really matter since you consider all the forces acting on a body when doing a problem.. doesn't really matter what the forces are called. I mean a downward arrow on your picture labelled 'weight' and an upward one labelled 'buoyancy' will cancel out (partially or totally) anyway, so it doesn't matter.
Incidentally, a spaceship in orbit does have weight - it's what keeps it in orbit, and not flying off into space. Its occupants don't FEEL weight in their frame of reference (ie the ship).
[img] 
[/img]
i'm no physicist but that guy is clearly not going to go faster due to the balloons although i do want one.
if you put the lorry on scales and the pigeons took off inside it, the scales would read the same, because each pigeon is supported by a downdraught from its wings, which would in turn result in an air current pushing down on the bed of the lorry.
What about if all the pigeons simultaneously beat their wings upward? Then there would be an updraft. The lorry would be lighter.
What about if the cargo containing space was a cage made of thin wire? Then the effect of the downdraft would be mitigated, right?
Quite possibly, yes 🙂
can't leave it on 99
assuming it's an airtight lorry, it still contains the same amount of air, the same amount of perches, and the same amount of pigeons. They can fly about if they want, makes no difference.
I think the BS of the week thread should run forever !
😉
assuming it's an airtight lorry, it still contains the same amount of air, the same amount of perches, and the same amount of pigeons. They can fly about if they want, makes no difference.
Certainly wouldn't, they'd all be dead.
They can fly about if they want, makes no difference.
It does, for the reasons outlined above. A bit more complicated than you think. But yes there won't be a long-term difference unless the birds can glide. A gliding bird (or plane) is actually a bit buoyant, so it'd be like filling the lorry with helium balloons. The indicated weight on the scales would go down if you did that.
Certainly wouldn't, they'd all be dead.
But then they'd start to decompose and some of their solid weight would turn into gas... How long is the truck journey?
When does this thread start again? What day of the week do we decide on the BS of the previous week? Will it be Friday and if so, will it be from the previous Friday to the Thursday just before or will it be inclusive of the day on which it is started? In which case, shouldn't it be titled "BS of the week ending dd/mm/yy"? And only be allowed to last for one day?
This thread started three days ago. Has cynic-al lost control of it now? Does he even care anymore?
molgrips - MemberThey can fly about if they want, makes no difference.
It does, for the reasons outlined above. A bit more complicated than you think. But yes there won't be a long-term difference unless the birds can glide. A gliding bird (or plane) is actually a bit buoyant, so it'd be like filling the lorry with helium balloons. The indicated weight on the scales would go down if you did that.
I think yer wrong here molgrips - if you had a beaker full of water with a model sub on the floor of the beaker, then the beaker would weigh the sum of the water and the sub. The sub starts to circulate and creates lift on its wings, it rises up. Does the beaker weight the same? Yes. Then the sub stops driving and glides, does the beaker weigh the same? Yes.
The situation you describe is the same as the one I described, toys - don't understand what you are saying. We seem to agree.
Yeah apart from the gliding bit, you said if they glide it makes it lighter. Not true.
I love this thread...
How about if the truck was full of helium and the birds started to fly?
I wish I could fly, right up to the sky, but I can't...
[img] http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:qMI0MTzGN1-WaM: [/img]
Yeah apart from the gliding bit, you said if they glide it makes it lighter. Not true.
If the bird is standing on the bed of the truck, its weight is couteracted by the upward force of the truck bed, which is in turn supported by the wheels and hence the weight of the bird will read on the scales.
However, if it glides, then the weight of the bird is partially supported by buoyancy ie the imbalance of atmospheric pressure on all sides of the bird. So how does that affect the reading on the scales?
If you added a balloon filled with helium and air such that it was neutrally buoyant and floated mid-air - that would also not affect the weight on the scales. (Except it would in that case, it woudl make the weight less since you'd be displacing some heavier air for lighter helium)..
However, if it glides, then the weight of the bird is partially supported by buoyancy ie the imbalance of atmospheric pressure on all sides of the bird. So how does that affect the reading on the scales?
So what's the air sitting on, then?
So you agree with my sub model?
if you had a beaker full of water with a model sub on the floor of the beaker, then the beaker would weigh the sum of the water and the sub. The sub starts to circulate and creates lift on its wings, it rises up. Does the beaker weigh the same? Yes. Then the sub stops driving and glides, does the beaker weigh the same? Yes.
Buoyancy is just another word to describe a lift force, it's still a force acting against gravity. That force (in this sealed system as defined previously) will be transferred through the air to create a downward reaction which will register the mass of the bird on a scale. The birds mass cannot disappear..
Sounds like a pretty cool sub model, if it can glide around in a beaker. 🙂
How about if the truck was full of helium and the birds started to fly?
Tj. I tihnk you are forgetting a certain conveyor belt.
BigDummy - MemberSounds like a pretty cool sub model, if it can glide around in a beaker.
It's an awesome sub model, with torpedoes, two periscopes and silent running.
That force (in this sealed system as defined previously) will be transferred through the air to create a downward reaction which will register the mass of the bird on a scale
Not necessarily. The forces involved in air buoyancy come from the weight of the atmosphere. Nothing to do with the truck.
There is only a reaction if the bird is flapping its wings (or its wing angle of attack is greater than 0.. which it will be... but that's fine. This is about buoyancy)
Btw I disagree that buoyancy and lift are the same. If a helicopter hovers above you, you feel the pressure of the downdraught on your head. If a balloon hovers above you, you feel nothing.
Not necessarily. The forces involved in air buoyancy come from the weight of the atmosphere. Nothing to do with the truck.
So in a sealed system the pressure in the air is from the atmosphere outside?
There is only a reaction if the bird is flapping its wings (or its wing angle of attack is greater than 0.. which it will be... but that's fine. This is about buoyancy)
Btw I disagree that buoyancy and lift are the same. If a helicopter hovers above you, you feel the pressure of the downdraught on your head. If a balloon hovers above you, you feel nothing.
You can disagree but you are wrong! 😀
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy ]Buoyancy[/url]
So in a sealed system the pressure in the air is from the atmosphere outside?
Well in a sealed system the pressure is what it is - what's your point?
I haven't got time to read the wiki article - on which point am I wrong?
If you can't be arsed then neither can I. This does sound like an attempt to back pedal though.. (baits trap and retires to safe distance) also someone has tagged you with this "molgrips flounders and blusters yet again." How terribly mean.
Truck weight stays the same. Molgrips you're wrong. Stop now.
No, come on, this is meant to be a discussion of the physics.. I'm just discussing it out loud.
No bluster, no angry denouncements.. 🙁 I just don't see your argument. What part of the wiki article disagrees with me? I meant I haven't got time because I am meant to be workign, and I'm already STWing and lsitening to the TdF on eurosport 🙂
When I said lift and buoyancy were different, I meant aerofoil lift the way planes and birds do it.
F=Ma innit
unless you change M or a you ain't affecting F
BS reigns supreme though ...
Greyman.. there are many Fs in this problem coming from all sorts of things. You're not contributing 🙂
I think I might agree with molgrips (at least to some extent) - now I've not followed the whole argument, but are we considering here a real lorry filled with real pigeons? ie it's not a sealed system (as pigeon fanciers tend to like their birds to survive trips in lorries). The thing is, as it's not a sealed system, some of the downwards force on the air will inevitably be dissipated through the vents. The thing is, the lorry would be just as functional with a mesh floor, in which case it's surely obvious that the pigeon taking off will decrease the weight of the lorry+contents?
there are many Fs in this problem
no there aren't
mass (M) is constant, gravity (a) is constant, so therefore is the "weight" (F)
😉
well, if you're going to bring in mesh lorries etc, then you are changing the mass in the system - stop changing the rules !
mass (M) is constant, gravity (a) is constant, so therefore is the "weight" (F)
Weight of what? Birds? What about the accleration of each bird as it flaps? What about buoyancy caused by aerofoil lift?
Sounds like you're not understanding the problem fully.
How am I changing the mass in the system by having a mesh floor lorry? We're still considering the same lorry with the birds on perches and then flying around? Or if you like I'll add some lead to the mesh floor lorry so it weighs the same as the original one.
How am I changing the mass in the system by having a mesh floor lorry?
I think he means that the mesh would weigh less than a standard wooden lorry bed. I think he was trying to be funny...
What about if the lorry is on a conveyor belt
*runs away*
How am I changing the mass in the system by having a mesh floor lorry?
for a start air could get out of "the system", displaced by wing flappage etc
I said mass, not weight
I think some people don't comprehend the difference - physics 101 lads
a bit tongue in cheek though I'll admit 😉
just keeping it going really
Weight of what?
mass - of all the little atoms making up birds, lorry, perches et al
What about if the submarine model was in a mesh beaker?
