…and we know this for a fact because the Baby didn’t get out of Syria in spite of being a citizen of the Netherlands via his father, and the mother had Dutch citizenship via two routes: As sole carer of the child *and* as the wife of a Dutch National. If citizenship of a European Nation was the route to survival he wouldn’t be dead. Citizenship wasn’t the problem. The lack of anyone willing to go and fetch him was the problem and/or perhaps he wasn’t free to leave the camp.
Missing several points, I think. First is that the mother did not have Dutch citizenship or Bangladeshi citizenship. She may or may not have been eligible for them, but did not apply for them and hence did not have them.
Second is that as British citizens the mother and child should have been given such help as was feasible. Whether that would have been sufficient to save his/their lives we will never know - the situation was pre-empted by "Power Stance" Javid.
Missing several points, I think. First is that the mother did not have Dutch citizenship or Bangladeshi citizenship. She may or may not have been eligible for them, but did not apply for them and hence did not have them.
I can't cite a source but I'm pretty sure as sole carer you get to travel with your child to Holland. Ie there was nothing to stop them both going to Holland. But does it matter? The Baby was a Dutch and UK citizen. Even if the UK didn't step up to the plate Holland did. So we have a 'control' country who (presumably) behaved perfectly correctly in your opinion and the Baby is still dead. Or did Holland also fail to act appropriately to which leads us to:
the mother and child should have been given such help as was feasible. Whether that would have been sufficient to save his/their lives we will never know
Can you be a bit more specific about what help your suggesting? Should Holland and/or the Uk have used military force to get them out? Or send someone in a Taxi? Or are you just saying that *if* you or I had gone and taken the baby in to Turkey to an airport they should paid for the ticket from Turkey? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to understand what action European countries should be taking to retrieve Isis volunteers and their children so I can judge for myself how practical it is.
I think people have made this a complicated issue.
The answer is simple really they have lost the war so they must accept all terms dictate to them regardless.
As for this young lady be thankful at least she is still alive while many other innocence people parished when they imposed their ideology on others.
They reap what they sow.
I just want to understand what action European countries should be taking to retrieve Isis volunteers and their children so I can judge for myself how practical it is.
We aren't in a position to say, I think. The journo found her, so maybe (speculating) she could have been smuggled out in a car and across the Turkish border. But even if that had been feasible, what would have been the point if she had pitched up at the Embassy just to be told that Big Saj had locked the door? We (via our representative) abrogated our responsibilities; we can't fully absolve ourselves from what followed.
We (via our representative) abrogated our responsibilities; we can’t fully absolve ourselves from what followed.
I think we can, because we have a control country: Holland. We can say with certainty that a European Country behaving correctly WRT to its citizens couldn't save the baby.
So whatever the UK has got wrong, it didn't lead to the baby's death.
I'd say that lets us totally off the hook in terms of culpability for the death of the baby.
(...and you can't suggest anything that would have helped, anyway.)
They reap what they sow
Bye bye civilization...
This all works out perfectly for Javid
as you can see by many of the comments on social media, an element of the country are actively celebrating the death of this baby,
so Javid has cemented his claim nicely in the forthcoming leadership elections.
I’d say that lets us totally off the hook in terms of culpability for the death of the baby.
Well if that's enough for you to feel good about yourself, go for it!
Or send someone in a Taxi?
If it had been a family member of mine that's exactly what I'd have done. Turn up in a taxi, pockets full of cash for bribes there's a good chance you'd have got the baby out at least.
there’s a good chance you’d have got the baby out at least.
... or murdered to death, of course.
"Excuse me, mister Western-hating extremist terrorist, would you mind awfully if I take this baby to the UK, potentially against the wishes of its parents?"
"By all means good sir, would you like a cup of tea before you go?"
Maybe that's what would happen cougar, but perhaps not. Sometimes the most obvious straight forward solution is what works. It's not instant death for westerners to enter these camps as evidenced by aid workers and journalists.
Personally I've had a fantastic fulfilling life, but I wouldn't hesitate to risk it to try and give my grandchild the chance of doing the same. Wouldn't you ??
taxi25
Member
Or send someone in a Taxi?If it had been a family member of mine that’s exactly what I’d have done. Turn up in a taxi, pockets full of cash for bribes there’s a good chance you’d have got the baby out at least
I think there would be a higher chance of you having you pockets full of cash emptied long before you had arrived at the camp.
Would make for a good script for a Hollywood film though. Who would you have play you Col?
there’s a good chance you’d have got the baby out at least.
Given that there are now western journalists in the camps and they've reported that the security services of many western countries(including the UK) are present and interviewing their citizens, whilst clearly not the least dangerous place in the world, it puts a lie to the notion (Given b Hunt and Javid et al) that it's too dangerous for the British state to make attempts to repatriate it's citizens
Would make for a good script for a Hollywood film though. Who would you have play you Col?
Liam Neeson of course, who else 🙄🙄
Liam Neeson was the obvious choice of course; and with his dislike of dark skinned people ... he’d be well up for it too!
But I think for realistic value (the script possibly stretching the imagination even for Hollywood a tad far) then Ricky Gervais?
Given that there are now western journalists in the camps and they’ve reported that the security services of many western countries(including the UK) are present and interviewing their citizens, whilst clearly not the least dangerous place in the world, it puts a lie to the notion (Given b Hunt and Javid et al) that it’s too dangerous for the British state to make attempts to repatriate it’s citizens
Well don't be shy, specifically say how you think this baby should have been retrieved by Holland or the Uk. Who should have gone to do it? A volunteer member of the public? A paid Social Worker? The Dutch/UK military? If the latter should they have been armed? Should they return fire if Russian or Syrian soldiers fired on them? Should they return fire if local militias fired on them? I'm not saying you're wrong, although I probably will once you provide the detail. 🙂
Assuming you do have a cunning plan, and are working on the basis that the Home Sec decided not to do it (why the home sec? Wouldn't it be Hunt or Williamson's remit) can you explain why Holland didn't do it? The Baby was as much their citizen as he was ours.
Well, Hunt (as of yesterday when he changed his mind) appears to also think that the UK Government should try and get the kids out via the DID, so you can ask him I suppose
specifically say how you think this baby should have been retrieved by Holland or the Uk
Well, Hunt (as of yesterday when he changed his mind) appears to also think that the UK Government should try and get the kids out via the DID, so you can ask him I suppose
I'll take that as an admission that you haven't got a clue how you would have got the Baby out, you've just been watching too many action films.
I'm sure in the medium term a lot (all?) European Isis children and fighters will return to Europe but that's very different to getting them out today, or last wee https://www.euronews.com/2019/03/07/what-is-europe-s-approach-to-repatriating-isis-members-euronews-answers
I’ll take that as an admission that you haven’t got a clue how you would have got the Baby out, you’ve just been watching too many action films.
Of course I've got no idea, why would I? As for action films, sorry, it's not my thing. Perhaps you're projecting? My point wasn't about that, it was about the fact that the Gov had said it was too dangerous, when clearly it isn't ( as the place is crawling with journos and civil servants.) which they've now pretty much had to tacitly admit.
Personally I’ve had a fantastic fulfilling life, but I wouldn’t hesitate to risk it to try and give my grandchild the chance of doing the same. Wouldn’t you ??
No, because I chose never to have the responsibility of reproducing in the first place.
Hypothetically, I guess I'd want to weigh up exactly how safe or dangerous it was likely to be before "jumping in a taxi." There's little point in doing the noble thing only to wind up with two corpses instead of one.
Didn’t one guy say he wants to come back as he misses KFC...
Good gob, what must the food have been like in the Caliphate cafe?
Good god, what must the food have been like in the Caliphate cafe?
Loving the idea of the ISIS canteen, brings Eddie Izzard's Death star routine to mind: