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They could hardly turn round and admit the reason why the UK is in the mess it is, is because of UK politicians and really nothing to do with the EU.
Indeed.
The big two political parties fed the idea that the EU held us back, despite all the evidence to the contrary. Blaming immigrants and than allowing the idea that we could only “take back control” of immigration (and our borders, laws and money) is not just down to the Tories.
That Larry Elliot piece is a timely reminder that this isn’t all “owned” by the Tories… far from it… plenty of people “on the left” are celebrating our “Freedom” today. Doubt they’ll ever open their eyes to the reality of what is unfolding in the UK.
. But the “Remain” campaign was mostly a Conservative PM and his cabinet…
Ah yes, David 'oops, I didn't mean for that to happen. Right I'm off. Bye.' Cameron.
****.
Happy brexit day yah bunch of whiners
Wasn’t that last January?
Just console yourselves that their glee for your tears is at least on par with your sadness at the whole mess.
No winners here, and their laughter grows old as Brexit reality bites. At which point the blame-game reboots.
Who bought it? The wealthy elites who will prosper mightily.
And leave the UK instantly if they get a better offer somewhere else.
The rest of us pay for it.
I’m ok I guess. Short-term anyway I’m just about well enough off that paying for it won’t break me. I do feel sorry for those Brexy voters in minimum wage. I guess they’ll be eating sovereignty for breakfast soon.
Happy brexit day yah bunch of whiners
Just watching a bit of the New Year's Day concert from Vienna. Sadly no audience this year. But lovely nonetheless.
Magnificent building and flowers but not gauche and shouty like we'd do it. Rooted in an era of fake imperial splendour, but moved on from that, keeping the trappings but with a modern, outward looking vibe. Not insular and petty like we'd do it.
Don't worry Daveylad - I will continue to apologise for being British on your behalf to any European I meet. You are most welcome.
Sure we once very pluckily and courageously held out for 18 months against the Nazis, until the US and USSR got dragged in. But I think it is time we stopped dining out on that one as a nation. Honour the sacrifice, of course, but it is time to stop expecting a 'thankyou'.
Oh, and the 3rd England 'goal' in the 1966 world cup final wasn't a goal. 'We' only won that because of a biased Russian linesman.
Happy new year to all on Rainy Fascist Plague Island.
We. Will. Remind. You. About. It. Forever.
painting a picture of what a progressive, fair, environmentally sensitive UK could look like
People have been doing this for decades, even centuries, and yet for most of the time they've been ignored. Why on earth do you think that'd change now? Not only have we chose to put up trade barriers with our nearest neighbours, but we've reduced the possibility of cultural exchange and the associated benefits.
And we're run by Tories, and there's a real chance we'll be run by Tories for the foreseeable future. So tell me why on earth you think that ideas for a better Britain will be listened to now, when they never were?
I'll give you a tip: better education is absolutely key to a better society. Did the EU ever stop us creating a better education system? No, of course not. But Tories did, and they still do.
Yeah I'll not be forgiving or forgetting the damage done to this country by brexit & the plastic patriots behind it.
Dont just blame the conservatives.
It’s a * up deal wise but the dream had plenty of red in it too.
Binary policies and politics are what’s * us all over.
This x1000. I can't believe that after all that has happened people still think it's just a Tory thing.
What about Labour. Leaving aside Magic Grandad for a while, Starmer whipped his party to vote for this Brexit on Wednesday. Not because it was needed to avoid No Deal, but because he wanted to win back some of the scum vote that he lost to the Tories in the last election. Which I will never forgive him for.
Which does indeed support the sad conclusion that the Tories will be in power for the foreseeable future.
Starmer whipped his party to vote for this Brexit on Wednesday. Not because it was needed to avoid No Deal, but because he wanted to win back some of the scum vote that he lost to the Tories in the last election. Which I will never forgive him for.
Starmer went down massively in my estimation on Wednesday.
But 'scum vote' and 'plastic patriots' are phrases that I will be using liberally from now on.
👍👍👍🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺
Anyone who says ‘it’s happened, get over it.’ or any other variation on the theme, needs to be reminded of the shit-fest they voted for on a regular basis.
I voted Remain and think it's happened and we should get over it.
I voted Remain and think it’s happened and we should get over it.
Good for you.
Good for you.
I believe it is good for me, yes. I believe it would be good for you too.
Happy new year.
I voted Remain and think it’s happened and we should get over it.
I've accepted it.
I'll never like it.
I won't forget it.
#back to 1973 #own it.
Does this mean it's ok to have a Friday Kylie thread now then?!?
Love the way people are saying it’s a mistake without any proof. You have to give it time to see what will happen. The biggest issue I have is the way the inept government have taken 4 years to make an agreement with the EU.
The idea of the EU is good the current implementation was poor. Sooner we get rid of the Tory’s the better.
I’ve accepted it.
I’ll never like it.
I won’t forget it.
I don't like it either. So we can wallow in self pity and perpetuate a culture war we will lose, or think about what we want our post-EU country to look like.
OP, it's your fault. You should have been writing to the BBC continually to complain about programmes and comedians making jokes about the euro-sausage and straight bananas etc.... And you should also have set up a pro-EU political party and spent 20-years going round every house in the UK explaining the benefits of the EU. If you couldn't be bothered doing any of that until after the event then who else can we blame?
I'm also in the forward looking mindset.
I really dislike it, I do think there's a need to continue to highlight the liars and the downsides.
However, I want to think about what country I do want to live in. It's time to push hard and stand ground on what I do want, not what I don't.
To quote the Scottish government - I want a fairer, greener, healthier and wealthier country.
I voted Remain and think it’s happened and we should get over it.
You have to give it time to see what will happen.
Er... are we back to this?
We can read, with our own eyes, the new barriers, extra costs and mountains of expensive and time wasting red tape that individuals, families, councils, customers, sellers, exporters, importers, couriers, delivery companies, hospitals, employers, workers and government departments have to contend with RIGHT NOW. And, importantly, we can also read the FTA signed on our behalf that states that they will continue to change for years to come. More and ever changing bureaucracy hampering all of us with only a British passport... all of us working for purely British sited companies... all of us who aren't part of the elite, with their homes and businesses in many countries outside these islands. The more you are tied to Britain, the worse this effects you. It's fine for the Elliots of Vote Leave, the Rees-Moggs, the Johnsons... whatever happens to the "true Brits"... it matters not to them, with their fingers in pies all over the world.
We have lost so much and gained nothing just so some rich, out of touch Tory tossers can avoid paying tax.
My children have lost such amazing opportunities due to selfish, ill-informed idiots who believed the lies and bullshit and I will never forgive them.
To quote the Scottish government – I want a fairer, greener, healthier and wealthier country.
+1
Er… are we back to this?
There's one thing we haven't left behind and that's moaning about things that aren't going to change. I hope some of you are just sounding off because otherwise I worry for your mental well-being.
I don't know what you mean by 'accept it' @ransos. I've accepted it, of course, otherwise I would be indulging in Trumpian levels of denial. But I wont stop criticising our government for doing stupid things. That is a cornerstone of democracy, and Brexit is no exception to this. I am taking part in the national debate (albeit in a tiny way), and that is what affects political outcomes. So I won't stop talking about it if that's what you want.
So we can wallow in self pity and perpetuate a culture war we will lose, or think about what we want our post-EU country to look like.
These two things aren't exclusive, are they?
I've been thinking and talking about what I want my country to look like for decades, I didn't just start in 2016.
Starmer whipped his party to vote for this Brexit on Wednesday. Not because it was needed to avoid No Deal, but because he wanted to win back some of the scum vote that he lost to the Tories in the last election. Which I will never forgive him for.
Welcome to the Revolution brother.
Seriously, think about it.
What else could he have done? He's leading a minority, their voters deserted them in big numbers due to the various failings of the Labour Party. He's stuck, and cant do anything else.
Voting against it would do nothing, apart from giving the Conservatives more fuel for their media attacks against the Labour Leader. He also has many Leave voters who support his Party, so would upset them even more if he had voted against.
Language like that shows that you havent learnt anything from the election defeat.
Would you rather have a Labour Government?
If so, then there will have to be compromises, on policy and the direction they are going. A socialist republic isnt going to happen, they need to appeal to a broad majority of voters, not the minority who think Corbyn and his cronies were a good choice to lead the Country.
I've seen few references to Corbyn, and his lack of support for Remain. Ocasionally he would give support to a Remain campaign, but if the Labour party was so much for Remain, he would be leading the campaign. That he didnt, and, reputedly, supported leaving, shows that the Labour party was totally split about what to do. If he had supported Remain, and given a good argument to stay, then the outcome may well have been different. As it was, his lack of leadership lost Labour some of their heartlands, and it is going to be hard to get them back.
Starmer has to deal with this, and is in a very difficult place. The worst Government in living memory, yet Labour is still struggling in the polls. Labour Supporters need to understand that they cannot carry on as before, slagging off anyone who didnt vote how they did, is not going to persuade those voters to side with them.
To quote the Scottish government – I want a fairer, greener, healthier and wealthier country.
Yup. And Labour is nowhere on these issues.
I worry for your mental well-being
Do you have a contribution to make... or will every post from you from now on tell us to stop talking about the subject of the thread?
I don’t like it either. So we can wallow in self pity and perpetuate a culture war we will lose, or think about what we want our post-EU country to look like.
OR - we can do both. The day I need a sanctimonious prig like you worrying about my mental health... Well, that'll be the day, that will. 🙂
What else could he have done?
Abstain. It would still have easily gone through.
Do you have a contribution to make… or will every from you be telling us to stop talking about the subject of this thread?
Your intolerance for a different perspective is entirely unsurprising to me. You are of course aware that no-one has told you to do anything, but seem determined to play the victim.
OR – we can do both. The day I need a sanctimonious prig like you worrying about my mental health… Well, that’ll be the day, that will. 🙂
Not seeing much evidence of anything apart from toddlers throwing a tantrum because they didn't get their own way.
Not because it was needed to avoid No Deal, but because he wanted to win back some of the scum vote that he lost to the Tories in the last election. Which I will never forgive him for.
+1
What’s really disappointing me at the moment is that the left of British politics seems to be mostly stuck in hand-wringing and complaining
You'd best put your body armour on with views like that round here. This isn't a place for sensible discussion, it's more like the spanish inquisition 🙂
PS. I entirely agree. Remainers need to get over it and start thinking about how to combat the Rees-Moggs and Raab's of this world instead of licking their wounds and crying about how unfair it all is. It's a pathetic sight quite frankly.
Happy brexit day yah bunch of whiners
Wasn’t that last January?
All feels a bit Groundhoggy to be fair!
toddlers throwing a tantrum because they didn’t get their own way
"toddlers" ... "mental health" ... keep the fun times rolling ...
Remainers need to get over it and start thinking about how to combat the Rees-Moggs and Raab’s of this world instead of licking their wounds and crying about how unfair it all is. It’s a pathetic sight quite frankly.
So the best way to combat the Rees-Moggs and Raab's "of this world" is not too draw any attention to the damage they are causing. Embrace their project and undermine it from the inside... by what means...?
but because he wanted to win back some of the scum vote that he lost to the Tories
Maybe the "scum" voted the way they did because partly they sensed many of their "betters" regarded them as scum.
Not seeing much evidence of anything apart from toddlers throwing a tantrum because they didn’t get their own way.
Good job I didn't rely on you worrying about my mental health, huh. 🙂
Remainers need to get over it and start thinking about how to combat the Rees-Moggs and Raab’s of this world instead of licking their wounds and crying about how unfair it all is.
Ww've been trying for five years and here we are. 🙂 I don't know if anyone's particularly crying about the unfairness of it, more venting about what a stupid crock of shit it all is. And if leavers were allowed 40 years of bitching about the EU, why can't remainers bitch about leaving?
So the best way to combat the Rees-Moggs and Raab’s “of this world” is not too draw any attention to the damage they are causing.
Where did I say that? By all means expose the lies of brexit, but if you think standing on the sidelines hoping and praying it's as bad as you think it's going to be so that you can then claim a moral victory is going to get one over on the brexiteers then you're sadly mistaken. That's what they want you to do, because it's an easy excuse to carry on with the 'remoaner' narrative.
We need to move on. Start identifying the benefits (yes, there are some whatever you may think), use them to build support for an alternative to US style capitalism, make a distinction between neo-liberalism and social democratic progressive capitalism, use the idea of 'sovereignty' against the capitalist ultras, we didn't give up our EU membership with all it's benefits to hand power to the billionaires etc. There are any number of ways labour and the wider liberal remainer left can attack the tories, but they need to abandon the EU nostalgia and look forwards. From what I can see Starmer whipping his MPs to vote for the deal is a signal that he wants to do that. He may well win back my support if he does.
And if leavers were allowed 40 years of bitching about the EU, why can’t remainers bitch about leaving?
Feel free, if you want to behave like they did.
I actually think Starmer should've voted against on the basis of this deal being worse than no deal. The deal is excellent for the EU and appalling for us. He would've lost but could make an oppositional argument without falling into a "remoaner" trap.
hoping and praying it’s as bad as you think it’s going to be
Well, I for one have never done that, and have actively criticised those that do. You on the other hand come up with lies such as "it's just about tariffs"... by all means hope for the best, we all are... but people are not about to "move on"... because there are years of dealing with the fallout of this ahead, and pretending that things aren't changing will not help people deal with the changes, or help unseat the people who have taken the reigns of power almost exclusively off the back of all this.
Start identifying the benefits
Please... do elaborate... there are bound to be benefits for some... I'd love to hear the ones you've identified, and who exactly benefits.
use them to build support for an alternative to US style capitalism
Say what now? Have you been asleep for 4 years?
On a practical level what does this mean for mountain biking? How much is insurance going to cost now for 10 days in Morzine, will I need a carnet for my bike? Etc etc
by all means hope for the best, we all are…
I don't think that's true at all. I get a very strong sense of people itching to say "told you so".
Feel free, if you want to behave like they did.
The "winners"? I neither need nor want your permission, but sure, why not?
Well at least it gives all the whiners something different to blame all their ills on, it’ll make a change from the miners strike or Maggie or whatever else. Whereas others will find a way to make it work and get on with their lives.
What else could he have done? He’s leading a minority, their voters deserted them in big numbers due to the various failings of the Labour Party. He’s stuck, and cant do anything else.
Voting against it would do nothing, apart from giving the Conservatives more fuel for their media attacks against the Labour Leader. He also has many Leave voters who support his Party, so would upset them even more if he had voted against.
Simple, abstain.
Not that tricky a question really. Make a statement that this Brexit agreement is entirely owned by the Tories and leave them to vote it through.
Job done.
this deal being worse than no deal
I worry about your mental health, and would expect that kind of nonsense from a toddler.
[not really, just trying on your approach to see how it feels... it feels pretty hollow]