Or a white care worker colleague who was asked where he was from.
'Finland' he says.
'So when are you going back?'
People voted to remove the rights of me and my kin, so they could either chase some dream of our government not having to compromise with people of other countries, or to keep foreigners out. If they get upset when someone angrily lashes out at them, perhaps over simplistically or wrongly, calling them nationalist, or xenophobic, little Englanders, or racist, or fascist, or selfish… I’ll often be sympathetic to their complaint… but I can see that sympathy running out. They won, they’d best learn to take the hitting up and hitting out… I fear there is a lot more of it to come.
Lucky you don’t work for the NHS then cos plenty of my non white colleagues got Brexit Eve abuse.
I never get these people, when I’m in hospital last thing on my mind is your colour or where your from ,I’m just happy being patched up.
I take a dim view of people abusing the people fixing me 🙁
Ill feeling about the complexity of brexit or the rise in hate is no excuse for the bigotry and hate posted by some on the current political threads. Emboldening bigotry and hate by allowing, supporting and agreeing with it regardless of which side spouts it seems a little ironic considering the conversation.
It is not okay and completely against the forum ethos. Respect and understanding is needed now more than ever. Education is key.
Lots of people mentioned Brexit in unseasonally warm SW France today. The atmosphere was jovial humourous, jokey... it isn't lost on Johnny foreigner that following the trade negotiations from this side of the channel is going to be highly entertaining. The curious thing is that I've had more people ask me what nationality/ies I am in the last week than ever. As if they were making sure that I wouldn't be offended before having a laugh. I've known one guy for 15 years and today was the first time he felt the need to ask.
I/we heard it expressed in many different ways but they all could be translated as "silly buggers".
Respect and understanding
"Respect" is earned. I understand the motives, that means there's no chance I'm gong to be "understanding".
Ill feeling about the complexity of brexit or the rise in hate is no excuse for the bigotry and hate posted by some on the current political threads. Emboldening bigotry and hate by allowing, supporting and agreeing with it regardless of which side spouts it seems a little ironic considering the conversation.
How did respect and appeasement of the opposite side work out for Hindenburg in 1933?
It didn't - it ended up with the civilized liberals being murdered or being placed in camps.
Ill feeling about the complexity of brexit or the rise in hate is no excuse for the bigotry and hate posted by some on the current political threads. Emboldening bigotry and hate by allowing, supporting and agreeing with it regardless of which side spouts it seems a little ironic considering the conversation.
It is not okay and completely against the forum ethos. Respect and understanding is needed now more than ever. Education is key.
Well, I'll tell you what, there's a tower block in Norwich you could do much good at, likewise an Italian broadcaster in London would appreciate your support. I've conciliated for best part of four years and had nothing back but "we won, you lost", "soak up your snowflake leftie remoaner tears" etc, so forgive me if I don't subscribe to your view that I still have to defer to these morons, they clearly don't give a **** what I think.
Ill feeling about the complexity of brexit or the rise in hate is no excuse for the bigotry and hate posted by some on the current political threads. Emboldening bigotry and hate by allowing, supporting and agreeing with it regardless of which side spouts it seems a little ironic considering the conversation.
Some of the more out of order stuff I agree with you on.
It is not okay and completely against the forum ethos. Respect and understanding is needed now more than ever. Education is key.
When have any Brexiteers given a reason for wanting Brexit that is respectable? The reasons fall into two broad categories. Firstly ones that are just outright xenophobia, racism or nationalism. No respect due there. The other category is those that try to have a basis in fact that is then debunked in about thirty seconds flat. Please tell me how I can respect a decision to turn this country upside down when the people who want it cannot give a single, coherent, good reason for doing it. Three and a half years and still not one. Respect has to be earned.
Understanding? Tricky given the above. I would understand if people were contrite, which many Leave voters now are. I do think a lot of people were trying to register an anti status quo vote and now regret it. But people also just voted a proven liar in as PM on a pretty much Brexit-only ticket, so perhaps there wasn't enough regret.
Anyway, I'll pose the question again. How could anyone be in any doubt that all of the far right were pro-Brexit, especially after the murder of Jo Cox?
Shouldn't that have resonated somehow?
exsee
Member
Ill feeling about the complexity of brexit or the rise in hate is no excuse for the bigotry and hate posted by some on the current political threads.
Sure. But I think a lot of the situation around brexit has entirely justified hatred. I hate every brexiteer politician, every last lying scumbag, for the harm they've caused and will cause.
I don't hate your average brexit voter- it's not your fault if you get scammed, and many people voted for brexit for their own good reasons too. But as time passes and the price we all pay gets clearer, I'm going to start to hate anyone that still pretends it's a good thing, or will still go "we won, we took back control" as the kids I work with watch their future shrink. And I hate a decent chunk of them right now- not the ones that still haven't realised it's a bad idea, or the ones who still don't believe that they were lied to, but the ones who always knew the damage it would cause to others and voted to leave anyway. I'm not making an "excuse", I'd rather not hate them but I do- they smashed something good that took years to make because they thought it'd make a nice noise.
Hate is a proportionate response to this. There is no "rising above" brexit, we can't make it better by being good sports about our country jumping off a cliff. I don't like it, I never will, but that's what it is.
it’s not your fault if you get scammed
Yes it is, not that it's right - but you should know better.
Many of them weren't scammed anyway, I always, always recommend reading Eric Hoffers "The True Bleiever" - it's used at West Point as an introduction to mass movements - here's an excerpt.
"The truth seems to be that propaganda on its own cannot force its way into unwilling minds; neither can it inculcate something wholly new; nor can it keep people persuaded once they have ceased to believe. It penetrates only into minds already open, and rather than instill opinion it articulates and justifies opinions already present in the minds of its recipients. The gifted propagandist brings to a boil ideas and passions already simmering in the minds of his hearers. he echoes their innermost feelings. Where opinion is not coerced, people can be made to believe only in what they already "know."
Politicians like Farrage and Laurence Fox find a crowd to preach to, because British culture is fundamentally necrotic.
Today rugby is the perfect image of Brexit.
The life of 1000s of people has been turned inside out and we shouldn't be able to complain about it?
As I said earlier, Leavers own this shxt now and they must not be able to hide from it. They had 3 years and 3 elections to think about it.
I think Northwind has articulated most of what I was thinking.
But the tone of this thread is depressing.
'I'm not defending hate but' stop making excuses and get a grip, emboldening the bigotry and hate of Ray-Ban and others is not okay on this forum, take it elsewhere.
Why doesn't the responsibility continue further along from the leave voter, why didn't the smart people put an end to this a decade ago, how did YOU sleep walk into this? If you want to point fingers then why not start with yourselves and a bit of collective responsibility, You helped legitimise a non binding referendum, you allowed the system to make this possible, tapping on your keyboard about idiots being scammed while sitting there watching your house get burgled sounds bat shit mental to me. Get politicised and make change through education and respect.
how did YOU sleep walk into this? If you want to point fingers then why not start with yourselves and a bit of collective responsibility, You helped legitimise a non binding referendum, you allowed the system to make this possible, tapping on your keyboard about idiots being scammed while sitting there watching your house get burgled sounds bat shit mental to me. Get politicised and make change through education and respect.
There was no political voice for people who felt this way in 2016 - the remain vote had a traitor within it's ranks in the form of Corbyn. The unions, momentum and those who voted for Corbyn to be leader are to blame for that.
Get politicised and make change through education and respect.
The anti-racist education campaign of the 90s and early 2000s, that failed to work - seems to be lost on you. It didn't work, what might work is the fear of social exclusion - peoples morality can be manipulated by group dynamics.
Dreadful news coming out of Japan re Nissan.
I've read that as the Sunderland plant only being worth keeping open if they can attain a 20 percent market dominance in the UK. Which does not seem credible at all, but they will try that before closing a £4 billion plant.
Ray-Ban, the in-out EU ref was talked about and used as a political tool since before 2010, what did you do about that between then and 2016? Any personal responsibility for sitting on your arse and sleep walking into being scammed of your rights? Collective responsibility is where we are at,try a slice before throwing hate cake at others.
And because an education drive didn't eradicate a problem completely doesn't mean it isn't an effective tool. Jeez
what did you do about that between then and 2016?
Consistently voted for pro-eu parties.
Collective responsibility
Yes and Brexiteers have collective responsibility for their racists and are guilty by association. I'm glad we agree upon that.
So, if I'm reading this right, Brexit is now the fault of remainers for not working hard enough to convince leavers to vote remain?
I think so, exsee has certainly lifted the scales from my eyes and I'm very sorry for Brexit.
It is interesting that Susan is more concerned with not
sounding racist than of not being racist.
LOL
In this sense,
Leave voters appeared to see the ‘Brexit’ vote as an opportunity to signal a general dissatisfaction with UK immigration policy. For many then, the vote had the potential to directly influence migration from the EU but also to indirectly – or symbolically – send a message of intolerance to non-EU ‘migrants’, whom Susan ‘certainly’ does not want to migrate to the UK.
Lovely people. Salt of the earth types.
Katherine felt the need to highlight her educational qualifications and her employment in the public sector, in an attempt to expose the inaccuracies of the essentialising narratives that have emerged around ‘Brexit’ voters. She is not the ‘left behind’ Leave voter that is hegemonically constructed in early analyses of ‘Brexit’. Instead, Katherine uses the ‘unfairness’ she sees through her employment to legitimise, or mitigate, her racialised views.
She is not ‘thick, ignorant, racist’ or ‘stupid’ but rather, wants to protect ‘British-based workers.’ In so doing, Katherine presents racism in a ‘post-race’ era, as something only associated with un(der)-educated and un(der)-employed individuals, rather than being a pervasive and pernicious feature of our social, economic and political structures. Like the white working-class participants in McKenzie’s (2017: 205-207) research, who ‘were confused and hurt’ by the portrayal of them in the media as ‘backwards and ‘racists’, it is clear too that Katherine felt the 10 need pre-empt and challenge accusations of racism and xenophobia, by highlighting her educational and employment status.
Ooof.
I’ve never been a racist, I’ve lived and worked in South Africa.
Dreadful news coming out of Japan re Nissan.
Another shill who hasn’t actually read the story.
Lovely people.
And the people that voted with them. They have collective responsibility. To some degree.
I’ve never been a racist, I’ve lived and worked in South Africa.
I'm sorely tempted to get this printed on a t-shirt.
So, if I’m reading this right, Brexit is now the fault of remainers for not working hard enough to convince leavers to vote remain?
You've not been keeping up, have you? It was always going to be thus. The sort of folk that voted Leave will always look for a scapegoat when life isn't everything they want.
How is it controversial to say that if you are not a racist yet you find yourself on the side of a divide where all the racists are, that you should be questioning your stance?
Because EU membership is just one aspect of life. And there are many reasons to think many things about it. Same reason that it is possible to be an England football fan and NOT be a racist hooligan.
Can we just talk about politics please instead of mud slinging? It's really awful.
The irony is strong up there 🙂 (edit. Not aimed at Molly)
Collective responsibility requires some soul searching for all of society I'm afraid.
Because EU membership is just one aspect of life. And there are many reasons to think many things about it. Same reason that it is possible to be an England football fan and NOT be a racist hooligan.
And as that paper demonstrates, many of those reasons that are not immediately racist are actually racist or predicated upon racial feelings.
You helped legitimise a non binding referendum, you allowed the system to make this possible
the remain vote had a traitor within it’s ranks in the form of Corbyn. The unions, momentum and those who voted for Corbyn to be leader are to blame for that.
At the last election, where there might have been a possibility of stopping the whole fiasco dead in its tracks, we were presented with two main parties with essentially the same damned mind-set!
Who, exactly, were we to vote for if we wanted to stop the process?
Would someone care to give me a clue, because I couldn’t see an alternative other than the Liberals, who I actually voted for, while knowing it was futile.
Now, if Corbyn had stuck with his original remain mindset, things may have gone the other way, there being an actual opposition party, rather than the purple party people*.
*What you get when you mix red and blue...
CountZero
Member
At the last election, where there might have been a possibility of stopping the whole fiasco dead in its tracks, we were presented with two main parties with essentially the same damned mind-set!
Who, exactly, were we to vote for if we wanted to stop the process?
Vote for the one promising a second referendum? No idea how you can say they had "the same mindset" tbf. Labour's approach was slow to arrive and always lacked the easy delivery of GET BREXIT DONE but what it absolutely was not, was the same.
And Corbyn's labour as a "mix of red and blue" is a new one.
Thank you Countzero, Mol and Northwind for trying to steer this back on topic.
To those continuing on the campaign of claiming leaver knew they were helping a racist cause stop. It’s resulted in warnings and bans already. By all means discuss you disapproval of how others voted but can we please be civilised and work with the forum ethos. This is place is far better than calling everyone racists, thick and using passive aggressive behaviour because they voted different. The outcome saddened me, the process that got us to where are in limbo annoy and the racism that’s risen disgust me but this is not what every leaver wanted and voted for.
So please once again discuss in sensible and civilised manner.
Well lets see how this freak show pans out, frogarge is still on the tele? which confuses me. JRM appears to be on a sabbatical (enforced by dom) Rab was on Marr manufacturing bollocks (badly)
Sajid is rolling back various comments? And already blaming business for not being ready for * knows what? While telling ALL gov departments to cut 5% from their budgets. Cash flow is king after all.
Meanwhile Dom is preparing to build a lighter faster cheaper MOD and civil service - tell you what that boy has done well.
Boris is down the back of the sofa looking for that few billion they took from poor people over the last umpteen years.
HS2 signed off... white elephant
Huawei signed off ... as Cisco is very expensive and slow - no fiscal choice
Blyth valley railway.. anyone who knows this part of the world and a big part of my family hails from Ashington Bedlington etc knows the east coast mainline is literally a stones throw away - propaganda project
Expect lots of this dressed up as "investment"
The above will be called "rebalancing the books" "investing in our forgotten towns"
Actually considering its day 2 of brexit the panic within the gov is obvious, the endless positioning, justification and blame creep is well underway. Yet the square route of * all has been detailed? Wheres the govs 100 days plan? Once again its groundhog day. Pitiful.
In respect to the kick back against Raybanwomble abd others "hate speech" i have to point out "NOT A SINGLE COHESIVE ARGUMENT HAS BEEN PRESENTED BY ANY BREXITEER OF ANY SOCIAL OR POLITICAL POSITION" and this good liberal people is what pisses off normal, balanced, task oriented, realistic human beings better known as Remainers. I have a right to be ****ing angry when presented to by these flat earthers.
Oh and as a footnote i possibly happen to be in a better position than most folks to understand what is happening at Nissan - as some one alluded they need 0% tariffs- not political its simple maths. They dont plan to close Sunderland they plan to "unbolt" it and ship it somewhere else if the trade deal is not sorted.
Oh sweet.
I've been unbanned.
Who's my guardian angel?
I'll keep my trap shut now.
Oldman, your take on Nissan is polar opposite of FT; summary of FT article as reported by BBC.....
....'In other news, the Financial Times reports that car giant Nissan is drawing up plans to move its entire European operations into Britain if Brexit leads to tariffs with the EU. The paper cites sources as saying a contingency predicts the Japanese company could undercut rivals through the move - as the cost of its cars to UK buyers would be cheaper than other makes manufactured in the EU'.
What it doesn't state is that's the only way that plant stays profitable - they are shutting the European ones as they are already unprofitable.
They have to make up the loss in EU trade by replacing it with increased sales in the UK.
It may work, or it may not. If it does, great - if it doesn't then Sunderland closes. The next car I will be buying will be German as I refuse to send money up to Sunderland.
BTW if anyone found my comments about using brexit voters as low paid domestic slave labour offensive - it's not like this country doesn't have form for that kind of thing.
BTW if anyone found my comments about using brexit voters as low paid domestic slave labour offensive – it’s not like this country doesn’t have form for that kind of thing.
I don't find your comments offensive, it's repeated use of horrible fallacies and bonkers logic that's troubling. You're implying that a slightly odd idea that's not even any kind of official policy, has somehow happened and enslaved disabled people. Which in turns somehow justifies your earlier slavery references?
A lower minimum wage for one group of people would clearly be discriminatory. It is most certainly not slavery, any more that any sort of salaried employment in a capitalist system is. Low employment amongst disabled people is a huge issue, this isn't the answer but the woke antiliberals jumping on anyone that utters a thought crime is awful and counterproductive. I have a severely disabled daughter, this is an issue that actually affects me and people like you don't help by stamping on debate.
Low employment amongst disabled people is a huge issue, this isn’t the answer but the woke antiliberals jumping on anyone that utters a thought crime is awful and counterproductive.
Stop parroting Lawrence Fox.
Also, I'm clearly not being woke here and aren't minimum wage laws illiberal?
Ah your fallacy this morning is ad hominem by proxy followed up with a bit of a tu quoque. I'm not engaging with that, waste of time.
I have a right to be ****ing angry when presented to by these flat earthers.
You do, and I am, but it's how you handle it that matters. Anyway. I get to listen to the whole Today programme this morning as I drive to London, yay...
A lower minimum wage for one group of people would clearly be discriminatory. It is most certainly not slavery, any more that any sort of salaried employment in a capitalist system is.
Many handicapped people have choice removed from them. They have legal responsibility for themselves removed form them and are then institutionalised and put to work. Realisitically they have no choice. I've worked in a place which was very proud of its record on employing handicapped people. They are well paid, working conditions are good but objectively they have abosultely no freedom of choice in their lives. In its "protection" of them they are living in the same circumstances as prisoners or slaves. Take a trip around your local psychiatric hospital and I think you'll find that inmates in an open prison objectively have more freedom.
Check out how many handicapped people have forced contraception, sterilization and obortion, and consider how that might evolve now the ECJ non longer has any influence in the UK.
To those continuing on the campaign of claiming leaver knew they were helping a racist cause stop.
Can you unpack that for us please?
Can we suggest that supporting Brexit was supporting a racist cause?
Can we claim that people who voted Brexit knew they were voting for a racist cause?
Are we just to stay clear of accusing any individual from supporting Brexit because they themselves had racist motivation?
Happy to be clear that plenty of people supported Brexit for non racist reasons…
Having not lived in the UK for some time now it's been difficult to get a clear un-biased view of what people back home were/are thinking and, more importantly, how they feel. Clearly feelings have driven this campaign significantly more than thinking did and deliberately so.
My infrequent trips back to the UK are just too much like a "holiday" to give me any true idea and, as we've seen, you can't rely on what you read in print or on-line, or what you see on TV - and although that has always been the case to some degree, in the last few years we've seen various forms of media move from "telling a bit of a porky pie" to "outright lying". I have tried to see both sides of this issue but, as with most things, it's hard to put yourself in someone elses shoes unless you've actually been in those shoes.
Now, whether we like it or not, it looks to me like the divide between the people on each side is only going to get wider. If Brexit turns out to be the success it was originally sold as, then great. The divide will naturally fall away. But in the event that it isn't, then the more people suffer as a consequence of it the more they are going to want to blame the person or people they hold responsible and I'm not sure "ignorance" will be a valid defence.
If the day ever arrives when the people at the top who promoted Brexit start back pedaling and things get "really bad" then I can imagine the hate is going to run high.
How about just showing some courtesy on this forum Kelvin, I know you’re better than that.
Can you unpack that for us please?
Can we suggest that supporting Brexit was supporting a racist cause?
Can we claim that people who voted Brexit knew they were voting for a racist cause?
Are we just to stay clear of accusing any individual from supporting Brexit because they themselves has racist motivation?
Happy to be clear that plenty of people supported Brexit for non racist reasons…
Yes, I would like clarification on this too, please.
This certainly does feel like a real change of direction for STW. Seems like a few people have been organising a targeted 'report post's strategy to shut down an embarrassing line of enquiry.
In any case, the evidence is there. The Farage posters and the mass reporting thereof. The murderer of Jo Cox shouting 'Britain first'.
By no means was everyone who voted Leave was a card carrying far right wing nut case. But on the other hand it is virtually impossible for them to argue that they were not aware that the far right were on the same side as them.
I'm happy to take a ban for this.
