[Closed] bothering to indicate...

(Sorry for brevity in the reply, I'm making tea)

Different set of arrows, Cougar. Sorry for confusing things (though graham hasn't helped by rotating the pic!), simply disproving the suggestion that the planners know what they're doing.

Assuming that is that the same person planned both sets of arrows - may be a dodgy assumption given that it seems different people did the lane markings and arrows without talking to each other.

You and Cougar seem to agree that the lane layout is ambiguous - but instead of using the arrows to clarify that ambiguity you have instead just picked an interpretation that leads to poor traffic flow and user conflict

Does it? Or is that poor traffic flow and conflict only due to the ambiguity? If the arrows were painted to remove the ambiguity (or removed altogether) would there still be a problem with the traffic flow and conflict?

The ambiguity is because of the arrows - in their absence there would be no ambiguity about the traffic flow into that exit.

You and Cougar seem to agree that the lane layout is ambiguous - but instead of using the arrows to clarify that ambiguity

Exactly.

Even if we assume that as Graham asserts the white arrow states "you [b]must[/b] go 'straight on' and leave at the second exit", what happens if you'd arrived at that same exit from further round the roundabout in the infinite third lane, and then changed lanes to the second lane after the arrow? Anything stopping you from using that exit from the second lane then?

Thus,

[img] [/img]

(apologies for my lack of artistic ability)

So arriving at the roundabout wanting to turn left, has anyone questioned the fact that the only instruction is to use the left hand lane?

No?

Then you just carry on. 😆

Utterly pointless. 😆

I don't think it helps much to resolve the question, but I thought you lot might be amused by the set of directions I managed to generate:

https://goo.gl/maps/piwcAsacENF2

Sorry for the late reply - I went to the pub 🙂

Right, so...

aracer:
My apologies - I thought you might pick up that it was a trick question. If the right arrow means what you're suggesting, then it is directing traffic to go back down the road it has just come from.

As one of the possible options. Seems reasonable to me. Being able to go all the way around is one of the key features of a roundabout.

Therefore the straight ahead arrows are directing 2 lanes of traffic into the single lane exit at the top of your picture.

Didn't you tell me off earlier for suggesting changing lanes across a long dash?

Now you're telling me that an arrow saying [i]"this lane to go straight on"[/i] actually means [i]"[b]leave[/b] this lane to go straight on (which is really a bit left)[/i]?

No, I don't agree.

I do agree that it is odd that the left lane has a straight-on arrow there, but I don't think that's a good reason to start changing the definition of the other arrows.

Cougar:
Thus

WTaF?? 😯

If you take the route marked by your red dots then you have joined the roundabout in the right turn lane when you want to go straight on!

Anything stopping you from using that exit from the second lane then?

All the other cars??

If you do that then we now have at least three different streams of traffic all trying to get to second land of that exit!

[img] [/img]

We have the green line, which is people taking what I believe are the correct routes (i.e. the routes that follow the arrows and Highway Code).

We have the red lines which are people following your previously suggested routes (i.e. routes that ignore arrows and Highway Code in favour of having an easier time getting into the right lane at the exit)

And then we have your dots (i.e. Hyundai drivers and people on the phone)

I thought you lot might be amused by the set of directions I managed to generate

😆

Yep that's about how useful my satnav is in most parts of city centre Gateshead or Newcastle.

arrows are for guidance only.

The junction here has bike boxes which are bright and clear after I asked for them to be re-painted. They had been worn to the point of not being recognised and car drivers would get upset at cyclists stopping there because it wasn't obvious that they were entitled to.

[img] [/img]

I also asked for the "left turn only" arrow to be repainted, and repeated further up towards the junction. Drivers who were using that lane to go straight, hoping for a drag start to cut in first before the parked cars would get aggressive with cyclists in front of them spoiling their plan.

If ever there was a case for a "left turn only", it's here. The road further up is single carriageway with cars always parked in the bays.

However:

Thank you contacting Islington Council regarding Hornsey Road.

The left north bound lane at the junction of Hornsey Road and Tollington Road is not a mandatory left turn. [b]The arrow is there for guidance only.[/b] Both cycle and motor vehicle traffic is entitled to travel straight ahead from this lane. However, drivers should not be aggressive or threatening towards other road users and instances of this type of behaviour should be reported to the police.

We would not recommend further arrows be painted in this lane, however I will ensure that the existing arrows are refreshed if required.

Regards,

Mike Fletcher
Senior Engineer
Traffic and Parking Services
Environment and Regeneration

Fair play to them, they got the boxes repainted only about a week after I asked them to. If you spot something that needs done, it's well worth taking a few minutes to write to the council.

Yeah we covered that ned. Consensus seems to be (from a pistonheads thread) that the arrows are advisory unless they are accompanied by the words "Ahead Only", "Turn Left" or "Turn Right" ([url= http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/schedule/6/made ]Diagram 1036 in TSRGD[/url]).
But traffic police [i]could[/i] (if they haven't had their Snickers) cite you ignoring arrows as a factor in an Inconsiderate Driving charge.

Good you got some action from the council though.
https://www.fixmystreet.com/ and http://www.fillthathole.org.uk/ are also useful for reporting stuff.

If you take the route marked by your red dots then you have joined the roundabout in the right turn lane when you want to go straight on!

Apologies, that was a mistake on my part as I did it in a rush. Imagine that route starts from the entry at the bottom of the picture instead.

All the other cars??

So now our rule is that we drive where other cars aren't?

If you do that then we now have at least three different streams of traffic all trying to get to second land of that exit!

No, there's one. There's traffic from the second lane as I've indicated, and your fictitious assertion that the second lane after the exit it's somehow exclusively for the first lane to swing across into with gay abandon. How the hell else are you supposed to leave by that exit when approaching from the entry road at the bottom of the picture, teleporter? Or gradually force your way out from the third lane into the first just to change straight back into the second lane when you leave the roundabout? That's insanity.

See, what you's lot are discussing is nuffin to do with "bothering to indicate" now is it? This is about a poorly marked roundabout, which isn't actually the fault of the shitty driving public!
I'd like to present you with a local roundabout of mine, where "bothering to indicate" is a real pain in the arse and causes me issues every day when I ride across it!

So what you have, approaching from A, is just one "normal" exit, B.
D is a shopping centre - normally only buses and pizza deliverers. AND ME.
E is Wickes, mainly.
So, how do you think people going from A to B behave on this roundabout?
(and what the hell do the dots coming out from E mean? but thats beside the point)
[img] [/img]

Or gradually force your way out from the third lane into the first just to change straight back into the second lane when you leave the roundabout? That's [s]insanity.[/s]The Highway Code

You signal and change lanes to the left after you pass the last exit before yours:

When taking an exit to the right or going full circle, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

• signal right and approach in the right-hand lane
• keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout
• [b]signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.[/b]

When taking any intermediate exit, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

• select the appropriate lane on approach to and on the roundabout
• you should not normally need to signal on approach
• stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout
• [b]signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.[/b]

I think some of the contention here is that I take the arrows as "signs or markings", but you are taking the [i]possibility[/i] of a turn as a "sign or marking" that overrides the arrow just a couple of metres before it.

And I can see your argument there. Really I can. It makes hitting that exit lane easier (or it would do if didn't conflict with all the cars doing it my way).

I've yet to hear anyone explain how me approaching in the middle lane, (which is clearly marked for "straight on" by two sets of arrows on approach) would fit with the Highway Code saying:

When taking the first exit to the left, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

• [b]signal left and approach in the left-hand lane[/b]
• keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.

The markings on the approach do not "indicate otherwise" do they?
In fact they directly reinforce what the HC says there, left lane for first exit.

Yeah we covered that ned. Consensus seems to be..

Dez -

how do you think people going from A to B behave on this roundabout?

I'd expect people use A2 to get to B2. Can't think of a good reason why not.

Presumably there's a B2 there because the capacity is needed to get people off the roundabout. And how else are you going to get to B2 apart from from the inside lane of the roundabout? And if you can come off from the inside, does it matter whether you got there from A, C, D or E?

We could argue all day long about how it affects the journeys times of those going to D or E from A, or to B from C, D or E, biut you'd only know for sure with in depth traffic studies during conjested times, with chnges of priorities and measuring the effects.

If traffic's moving freely, A2 to B2 shouldn't affect anyone at all.

(Thanks ned!) Ah, but.. they do, probably half the A-B traffic is A1 to B1 and half A2 to B2. Problem is NOT ONE BASTARD indicates! From A2 to B2 a LEFT indicator would inform C traffic that they can come out.
Problem for me is, C traffic are so used to non-indication, when I'm going STRAIGHT ON to D, I have to signal right (wiv me arm) or C traffic just pulls out in front of me (and I'm usually not going slowly)
WHY WHY can't they indicate LEFT?

DezB: yeah a change of subject I think.

So, how do you think people going from A to B behave on this roundabout?

Two lanes on, two lanes off?
(thus ignoring the Highway Code unless it has some some signs we can't see)

what the hell do the dots coming out from E mean? but thats beside the point

They seem to be suggesting people joining at B should take the inside lane (lane 2) on the roundabout which is.. erm.. unusual.. but fits with the HC bit about "unless signs or markings indicate otherwise" I guess.

You signal and change lanes to the left after you pass the last exit before yours:

So I'm arriving from the bottom entrance (ho ho!) and I want to leave by the right exit, and am turning right after the exit.

By your interpretation, and following the advisory arrows, on entry I move to the third lane of the roundabout. On passing the last exit before mine, I have to make two lane changes in the space of several metres (which will be fun in busy traffic) to get into the far left lane, leave the exit, and then immediately try and return to the lane I've just left in the space of another few yards?

By my interpretation, on entry I move to the third lane of the roundabout. On passing the last exit before mine, I make one lane change to the second lane, stay in lane as I leave the roundabout by the perfectly clearly marked and valid exit, stay in lane as I progress down the road and then turn right at the junction.

Even if by some cruel twist of fate you're actually right and I'm wrong, then it's still crazy and needs changing. (TBF, even if I'm right the entire roundabout is still shite and needs redesigning, as I said before).

Problem is NOT ONE BASTARD indicates!

I think I can see why. They're all interpreting it as "straight on" rather than "first exit."

Maybe, but even straight on you indicate LEFT to exit!

Sorry Cougar, my fault for rotating the diagram and all that, which bottom entrance? Bottom left on the last version of the diagram (with the red dots)?

(If so I'll reply in a bit - gotta go pick up the kids)

God knows now, I hadn't even noticed! Does it make much difference? I thought we were only ever discussing the one exit.

Problem is NOT ONE BASTARD indicates!

[i] DezB - Member 
Problem is NOT ONE BASTARD indicates! From A2 to B2 a LEFT indicator would inform C traffic that they can come out.[/i]

Shouldn't you be waiting for said traffic to complete their move, before pulling onto the roundabout/exiting a junction.
Irrespective of what the little yellow lights are telling you?
😉

Maybe, but even straight on you indicate LEFT to exit!

I wasn't suggesting they were right, I'm just thinking maybe that's why they're doing it. Regular away I see successive cars leave a roundabout exit in front of me, one indicating left and the other indicating right as they both leave the same exit.

On your roundabout I'd be largely ignoring indicators anyway as they're unreliable - they could be indicating where they're going around the roundabout or that they intend to change lanes (A2 to B1 or some such, crazy to do it on a roundabout but y'know, people).

This is genius. I am thoroughly enjoying the level of detail you guys are going into to annotate this one roundabout.
Top marks to GrahamS for his smooth & flowing arrow style, as well as use of multiple colours.
It's just a shame you're incorrect about the use of the roundabout, the pesky arrows and that lane 2 straight on/left into the right hand lane conundrum!.... 😆

I've only scan read the replies, but aracer & Cougar seem to be agreeing with my original viewpoint & are therefore obviously correct.

Oh, and on the latest Cougar's dotted lines which he did wrong teaser, bottom exit as I took it was the bottom of the last pic (with the flowing red & green lines), as opposed to the left hand side of the image which is where his dots originally sprung from.....

Shouldn't you be waiting for said traffic to complete their move, before pulling onto the roundabout/exiting a junction.
Irrespective of what the little yellow lights are telling you?

You! You are on a thread about BOTHERING TO INDICATE and you come up with crap like that! Jeez, you are part of the problem obviously 👿

[i]I'd be largely ignoring indicators anyway as they're unreliable[/i]

YEAH! What's the point of indicators anyway? Nobody uses them correctly so we might as well not use them at all. Or ignore them..

hmph

[i]GrahamS - Member
I've yet to hear anyone explain how me approaching in the middle lane, (which is clearly marked for "straight on" by two sets of arrows on approach) would fit with the Highway Code saying[/i]

The middle lane at the entrance is incorrectly marked wrt to that lane on the roundabout splitting into two lanes.

The middle lane of the approach should have a combined ahead and left arrow as has been painted in lane one of the eastern approach road.
😉

The craziness started when somebody put more than one lane on a roundabout. Funnel everybody to one lane at all the entrances and exits, with one lane on the roundabout. Indicate left to leave and right to continue around. All sorted. Traffic would flow better too.

Although, as all motorbikerists know, the indicator flashing only means that the bulb works. (no it doesn't, yes it does, no it doesn't etc)

[i] hmph[/i]

😆

Oh, and on the latest Cougar's dotted lines which he did wrong teaser, bottom exit as I took it was the bottom of the last pic (with the flowing red & green lines), as opposed to the left hand side of the image which is where his dots originally sprung from.....

Yeah, I cocked it up cos I was tired and did it in a rush, I said as much earlier. That's what I meant, approaching from the entrance further round.

YEAH! What's the point of indicators anyway? Nobody uses them correctly so we might as well not use them at all. Or ignore them..

Thanks for the tip. I'll hopefully survive another couple of decades of road use now.

I think that on Graham's Roundabout (as it shall henceforth be known), part of the issue is that there are (at times) 3 lanes.

Remove a lane and it's clear; left lane for 'next' exit, right lane otherwise.

Add in the third lane & it may help traffic throughput but does add ambiguity.

Using Graham's 'green line theory' above, then there's basically no scenario where you would need to be in lane 3. And the HC parts that Graham quotes all seem to assume a 2-lane setup.

So i think

the red lines which are people following your previously suggested routes (i.e. routes that ignore arrows and Highway Code in favour of having an easier time getting into the right lane at the exit)

are actually intended for general use to speed up traffic flow through the junction. Otherwise you may as well just have a 2 lane roundabout.

Thanks for the tip. I'll hopefully survive another couple of decades of road use now.

Sorry. #mansplaining

the HC parts that Graham quotes all seem to assume a 2-lane setup.

Part of the problem is that many roundabouts in the real world bear little resemblance to THC's idealised version.

Part of the problem is that many roundabouts in the real world bear little resemblance to THC's idealised version.

and drivers! 😆

Well, quite.

[i]Graham's Roundabout (as it shall henceforth be known)[/i]

😆

Don't name that shite in my town after me though eh?!
[edit]just realised - every single day this thread will be like an earworm when I negotiate that! Argh.

I think we should start a petition to have the middle arrow changed, the lanes coloured in and the roundabout renamed to 'The Graham Cougar Circular' 😀

Circular being the operative word.

Sorry for the delay. Kids!

Right..

Cougar:
By your interpretation, and following the advisory arrows, on entry I move to the third lane of the roundabout. On passing the last exit before mine, I have to make two lane changes in the space of several metres (which will be fun in busy traffic) to get into the far left lane, leave the exit, and then immediately try and return to the lane I've just left in the space of another few yards?

It's a "straight on" from the bottom left so I assume you mean coming on from the bottom right yeah?

I'd do this:

[img] [/img]

Join in the right lane for the right turn (as per Highway Code and road markings). Move left once past the exit before mine (as per Highway Code). Exit roundabout then select RH lane.

The middle lane of the approach should have a combined ahead and left arrow as has been painted in lane one of the eastern approach road.

Which is why I laughed at you saying [i]"If folk just stuck to what the HC says, there'd be no discussion. It's folk re-interpreting the situation and coming to their own answer is where it starts to get sketchy, imo."[/i]

Here you are ignoring the Highway Code and re-interpreting the situation to come up with an answer based on the arrows you think [i]should[/i] be there rather than the ones that actually are there.

For the record I completely agree that you/Cougar/aracers plan [i]would[/i] work, but if that was the intent then the roundabout would be marked like this:

[img] [/img]

But it isn't.

(I'm actually quite tempted to write to Gateshead council and ask them to explain it - but knowing them I'd get nothing back. FOI request for the plans maybe?)

What's the point of indicators anyway? Nobody uses them correctly so we might as well not use them at all.

This is probably a good point to say that use of indicators on roundabouts is [b]only advisory[/b].

And if this thread has taught me anything its that most people are happy to ignore the advisory stuff if they think it'll take less effort. 😉

I'd do this:

You're moving out to the first lane too early,

• keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout
• signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.

You wouldn't change lanes before indicating; so you pass the exit, [b]then[/b] indicate, [b]then[/b] manoeuvre across. I know this sounds pedantic, but it drastically reduces the time you've got to do your 37 unnecessary lane changes, rather than the nice sweeping curve you've drawn.

Plus, veering dangerously back on topic, your indicating to change lanes that early could be misconstrued as an intention to leave an exit earlier, risking the chance that people will pull out on you.

As I said earlier, I don't think it's [i]effort[/i] (I mean... effort?!) , it's just something that's either ingrained into your driving or it's not. For some reason (faulty brains I say), for most it's not.

it drastically reduces the time you've got to do your 37 unnecessary lane changes

Kinda depends what speed you're doing. Note the 20 signs on the exit, the fact you are only a dozen metres after the lights, and the fact I said this roundabout is solid at rush-hour.

One lane change on the roundabout - same as your approach.
One additional change off the roundabout to get into the correct exit lane.

One lane change on the roundabout - same as your approach.

Lane three to lane one is two changes.