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"The party has the mandate."
The party members now have the mandate, the elected MP's get to choose from the choices the party members have mandated.
If you pay for party membership then you now get a chance to buy an influence in who can be PM in a way that is wholly undemocratic.
although the idea of another Labour government is frankly terrifying.
Don't be daft. The leader is a centrist who's falling over himself not to piss anyone off, it's hardly going to be the communist revolution you seem to be afraid of, is it?
For that reason, [Cameron] he’s still the worse PM.
Oddly I'm inclined to agree with Cameron on this, his biggest failing in office, indeed of any PM potentially, was his failure to secure intervention in Syria after the first use of chemical weapons (against a civilian population).
Brexit is quite a distant second to that and the ramifications there of.
Put me down for boris to be gone by the end of next week. he'll be taken down from the inside.
You don’t vote for a prime minister.
You vote for an MP to represent you.
Whilst technically true, that's not the case in reality, in a GE 'people' vote for a PM/party, even though to do so you have to vote for your local rep.
Thats's actually a good argument for electoral reform, in and of itself.
the elected MP’s get to choose from the choices the party members have mandated.
Other way round.
MPs chose two candidates and then the party members vote on those.
Unless, as in Mays case, the other candidate drops out at the end because the mp vote had been overwhelmingly in Mays favour.
Don’t be daft. The leader is a centrist who’s falling over himself not to piss anyone off, it’s hardly going to be the communist revolution you seem to be afraid of, is it?
Quite. Labour is definitely the safe-but-boring option right now
Y'know, I think it was the blow job story that did it for Johnson.
For the tories hiding behind the Pimcher sex pest story puts a more dignified gloss on the procèdimgs.
If you pay for party membership then you now get a chance to buy an influence in who can be PM in a way that is wholly undemocratic.
Now is nothing to do with it.
That you don't like the party or person in charge this time around doesn't change that it's been the case for a very long time.
The only PM that I can immediately think of where its not true is Gordon brown, who was never returned at a GE and never elected leader of the Labour Party either as he stood (effectively) unopposed.
MPs chose two candidates and then the party members vote on those.
Who choses the parliamentary candidates? The members/leader/MP thing goes around in circles. When it comes to choosing a leader, MPs and members SHOULD remember that they are choosing someone to lead the country for all of us, not just for themselves. I'm sure many do think that way. It's human nature to be pulled towards your own preferences and biases though... what's "best for the country" is often a rationalisation of a choice based on what's best for you and yours.
"Other way round"
I stand corrected, though that makes it even worse, party members alone getting to choose who is PM.
It’s human nature to be pulled towards your own preferences and biases though… what “best for the country” is often a rationalisation of a choice based on what’s best for you and yours.
Despite our differences everyone tends to think people en masse are broadly similar to them when making decisions on their behalf.
Who choses the parliamentary candidates? The members/leader/MP thing goes around in circles. When it comes to choosing a leader, MPs and members SHOULD remember that they are choosing someone to lead the country for all of us, not just for themselves. I’m sure many do think that way. It’s human nature to be pulled towards your own preferences and biases though… what “best for the country” is often a rationalisation of a choice based on what’s best for you and yours.
This is arguably why a republic would work better, even if the head had to be elected by MP's. At the moment either leader has to be elected by the majority of their party one way or another. Which means the best you can generally get is a centrist of that party. Switch it so every MP has a vote and you'd get less extreme candidates overall as there would be a path to victory by being the the tory candidate who could drum up the most "anyone but the other guy" votes from the opposition.
e.g. Sunak Vs Patel, Tories split 50/50, Sunak wins because he gets some Labour votes (Lab, Lib, SNP candidates all having been eliminated in previous rounds).
Whereas the current system could well give you Patel under those options.
I believe that technically just Conservative MPs can decide who the next Tory leader is, that would be within the Tory Party rules.
Nevertheless they do tend to leave the final decision to the membership as their support for the party leader is obviously important.
But in a situation in which a new leader needed to be found quickly they could do that by leaving it solely to MPs.
It was May vs Leadsome and Leadsome pulled out just leaving May
So that sort of stuff happens, also no reason final 2 candidates voted by MPs could do a deal to have 1 as chancellor 1 as PM
Whereas the current system could well give you Patel under those options.
The difficulty is you always end up with the least worst candidate rather than the best. Long term that leads to stagnation and a lack of willingness to move away from the established norm. Eventually you'll end up with a Boris (or a le Pen) as the electorate moves further from a centre that doesn't represent anything but the continuation of what doesn't work for them.
Ernie
Johnson has no ideology so cannot be put on a rught left scale and under his premiership we have had brexit an act of folly so huge it has caused more damage to the people of Britain than anything imagined by any other tory and a vile racist immigration policy which again is more right wing than anything from any other tory and breaks international law
Yes he splashed some cash but most of it went to the better off.
The fear is not we get somone more rightwing. They have little time to do damage. The fear is we get someone who could make tories electable again. A headbanger brexitteer will ensure they lose the nexy election
under his premiership we have had brexit an act of folly so huge it has caused more damage to the people of Britain than anything imagined by any other tory
I think you have to blame Cameron, May and Johnson for that. They all ****ed things up massively. Cameron started it, May set the direction and Johnson finished it off in the worst way. All of them could easily have avoided this utter mess in their turn.
also no reason final 2 candidates voted by MPs could do a deal to have 1 as chancellor 1 as PM
I think there's a good chance you're going to see them run on joint tickets here with an obvious left right split between the two to try keep everyone on side.
All of them could easily have avoided this utter mess in their turn.
Johnson used Brexit to push Cameron aside. And used Brexit to push May aside. And used Brexit to get a majority. Cameron and May made big mistakes... but ultimately Johnson outwitted them by being prepared to promise more, lie more, and risk damage to both party and country more. His "unstoppability" on route to PM dried up when in government promises only delivered falling living standards, and his continued lying was exposed in the full glare of being ultimately in charge. Blame Cameron and May all you want... but they are only supporting actors in all this... it's been the Boris Johnson story being played out for the last decade. It's not over yet... got your ticket to the wedding do of the summer?
Cameron is an interesting one...
Playing devils advocate, at the time, he gambled on the public being bright enough to vote to remain in the EU, we all know how the ended. We all know why he did it, he was frightened of losing a few votes to UKIP, hindsight is a wonderfull thing.
Equally, he was PM and he gambled in a very high stakes game when he should have just played it safe and ignored the faux pressure from UKIP. He Gambled big and he we lost bigger.
He gambled the future of the country out of fear of losing a few tory votes.
That is beyond reckless, it's the height of fear/stupidity.
It kind of sums up modern politics in a petri dish really, it's all bluff and bluster, rather than carefully calculated reforms or new ideas.
but Boris is insisting on remaining PM until autumn
Only if HMQ agrees, she's more likely to invite the new leader of the party with the most seats to form a government as our constitution sets out.
He gambled the future of the country out of fear of losing a few tory votes.
And forgot that he is there for the good of the country not for the benefit of the Tory party, that can be a happy side effect of governing properly in the national interest not the be-all and end-all of government. We should remind our candidates of this the next time they are requesting our support.
Ernie
Johnson has no ideology
I think you might be quoting me TJ
Playing devils advocate, at the time, he gambled on the public being bright enough to vote to remain in the EU
The counterargument is he was as deluded about his talents as Johnson is. He brought into the myth of his background in PR making him a genius at it (when in reality it was a sabbatical job from politics arranged by his mum) after winning the AV referendum and then the Scottish one.
Both times with the odds heavily stacked in his favour with a united party and mostly united media.
So he thought it would be easier enough to win number three and cement his legacy only to find without being propped up he was way out of his depth.
And forgot that he is there for the good of the country not for the benefit of the Tory party
That's a condition of being a tory member isn't it? party before country? I jest (sadly).
Reports that he wants to stay on, in part, because he has a wedding do planned at chequers.
https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1545045540244578304?s=20&t=CSRdKaDglIUkaB6wAwJNlw
That’s a condition of being a tory member isn’t it? party before country? I jest (sadly)
It's a precondition of being a member of any party. You're there because you think their vision is better than any other for the country (or you) and therefore the betterment of that party is the betterment of the country. You may personally agree with the labour/green/libdem/ukip or what ever but ultimately you make decisions in the interests of the party and the country because you think they're one and the same.
It's very rare people are given the option to do something very clearly against the national interest or not and choose not.
Is anyone else concerned that if he’s not gone within a week, he’ll not go? Come up with some national emergency that means he ‘has’ to stay?
Got there in the end, but yeah…
https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1545045540244578304?s=20&t=CSRdKaDglIUkaB6wAwJNlw
Hard to believe he's clinging on until the last.
Gauss. I believe that is his plan
The people that get to decide who the next leader and PM is, are the paid up conservative party members, not the electorate.
The conservative party only has 200,000 members (vs labour 430,000).
Now imagine people who are so tory they pay to be a member of the party. These are the people choosing.
Well you say that, but I am a fully paid up member of the Tory party. It cost me a whole Scottish pound but it does mean I get to vote for the next leader. Obviously not being a complete xxxx I'd never vote Tory in a million years.
I do appreciate that I am breaking their rules, but I'm only doing so in a very limited and specific way, so that's OK, right?
So, do I vote for the candidate that will do the least damage to the country, or the one who will do the most damage to the party?
Could be the same person. You want an incompetent so Raaaaaab or Truss as their incompetence means they will achieve nothing so not making the situation worse.
Wallace an Tugboat seem to br vaguely competent so avoid.
Johnson has no ideology so cannot be put on a rught left scale and under his premiership we have had brexit an act of folly so huge it has caused more damage to the people of Britain than anything imagined by any other tory and a vile racist immigration policy which again is more right wing than anything from any other tory and breaks international law
'Brexit: Bad' 'Racist' and 'Right Wing' all in one paragraph! You just missed 'Gammons' for the full-house 🤣
You want an incompetent so Raaaaaab
thankfully Raab ruled himself out this afternoon, please keep up.
Crikey ... looking the potential candidates for PM everyone knows they have no leadership quality whatsoever.
Based on the list from your favourite non-bias factual newspaper DailyXXX something ...
Sunak ... nope. Zero quality leadership. Will be a disaster PM.
Javid ... nope. Zero quality leadership. Will be disaster PM.
Hunt ... nope. Zero quality leadership and probably become UK dear leader with string pulled by you know who.
Wallace ... Probably 1st Deputy PM. Not brilliant but can do. His current role suits him fine.
Truss ... nope. Not disaster but weak.
Mordaunt ... She should be the next PM so long as she can stand strong.
Zahawi ... Probably close as 1st Deputy but his background put him at a disadvantage with the public. Politically he might be slightly better than Wallace and perhaps many more.
Bottom line none of the list above can handle true leadership but that's the best there are for now.
Let's face it, whatever the tory replacement for johnson is, it ain't gonna be nice. Could be slightly more moderate, could be slightly more insane.
The big take home from this, for me is that at least even the tories won't tolerate a pure hard right dictatorship.
But the worry is, they technically could if they wanted to.
The premiership for him is all about party central and maximising the inlets of pleasure. All the people suffering from falling incomes can look on and in like peasants in a Breughel painting. He just wants to empty the cellars and coffers before his bio is ghostwritten and he sails off to sunlit uplands. Utter scum.
because he has a wedding do planned at chequers.
Is this with Carrie or is there going to be another vacancy for a mistress?
The big take home from this, for me is that at least even the tories won’t tolerate a pure hard right dictatorship.
Generally speaking they are all poor quality political candidates including those unicorn riding oppositions.
Anyone that wants to show some guts will be labeled as "dictator".
At the end of the day most are just mediocre quality who cannot really lead other than maintaining the system. The system will punish them for trying ...
Therefore, we are heading in the direction of unicorn world.
@ Klunk
That bloke is always angry ...LOL!
He gambled the future of the country out of fear of losing a few tory votes.
That is beyond reckless, it’s the height of fear/stupidity.
Cameron was as concerned about his place in history and legacy as Boris is, he wanted to been the PM that healed a 40 year rift in the Tory party, shutting the "Euro-skeptics" up once and for all (remember when we called them that?).
He was as full of Hubris as Boris ever was (is). But of course he didn't count on aligned funding from various RW groups, , concerted targeted messaging, Cambridge Analytica, Russian bot farms, weak support from the Labour leader, etc, etc...
The thing is the Brexit referendum was a conservative party internal issue that spilled over and dragged the whole nation in too. It's cast such a long shadow that it's still affecting our political landscape today and a candidates support for or lack thereof can still be the deciding factor for voters long after the deal was done.
The common thread in all of this is the conservative party, they've stayed in power throughout, they've torn the country apart and ruined our international reputation. Worst of all they're still a divided, in-fighting, backstabbing bunch that can't go 3 years without knifing their leaders...
Cameron's folly will last a decade plus, it's his 'greatest' legacy and really it should have triggered a spell in opposition for the Tories already, if this latest episode in that chain of events doesn't cost them the next GE, then frankly it's the voting public that are the problem. We get the government we deserve that's how democracy works...
We're a first world country with working people so poor that they have to rely on foodbanks, all because we've spent half a decade fixated on how much 52% of our population dislike foreigners. We should be bloody ashamed and kick the ****ers that have lead us throughout this period out of office at the first opportunity...
Boris leaving is fine, but I just want the whole venial, self serving nest of vipers out ASAP, nobody can trust a Tory, not even another Tory...
Therefore, we are heading in the direction of unicorn world.
https://goo.gl/maps/p8VyR95zp3a7cGxr5
Supplies available here.
The big take home from this, for me is that at least even the tories won’t tolerate a pure hard right dictatorship that makes them look bad.
FTFY
They were happy with him when he was winning. The whole lot* were complicit in everything he did, until they smelt blood and threw him to the dogs. He gets no sympathy from me, but his comments about "the herd" were accurate.
* Basically all of them except a select few tories who actually publicly opposed the clown in chief before this latest saga.
EDIT: What Mr Pie said 😀
We’re a first world country with working people so poor that they have to rely on foodbanks, all because we’ve spent half a decade fixated on how much 52% of our population dislike foreigners. We should be bloody ashamed and kick the **** that have lead us throughout this period out of office at the first opportunity
The root cause is 40 years of excessive neoliberalism that has failed so much of the country, that populist lies offer more hope than the continued abandonment by mainstream politics.
Marvellous - same old same old. We seem to be in a game of Boris Says - Boris didn't say resign. A round of enemy of the people - conservative MPs. Three months is a decent enough time for him to be on manoeuvres and try to wriggle out of it. He's set out his agenda and no new policies just means nothing to see here move along; anything floated already will be fair game. He seems to already have the narrative and is no doubt running to the front ready to shout follow me. I expect he'll try to interfere with the selection of the new leader as much as possible. No one could do it better / thin pickings for a replacement. Depressingly we could have decades of him trying to get back into power and a re-set of the Boris and Donald show.
Is anyone else concerned that if he’s not gone within a week, he’ll not go? Come up with some national emergency that means he ‘has’ to stay?
I'd say it's a fair bet he'll at least try. Probably more than once.
working people so poor that they have to rely on foodbanks, all because we’ve spent half a decade fixated on how much 52% of our population dislike foreigners.
Food banks first appeared in the UK when we had a Labour government and the UK was a full EU member.
Food banks are not the result of anything which has happened on the last 5 years, including UK attitude to foreigners.
It is supremely ironic that on a thread in which alleged dishonesty is a reoccurring theme that something so blatantly untrue should be said purely for political gain.
The Tories clearly don't have a monopoly on that tactic!
Maybe if they introduced mandatory random drug testing for all MPs he would **** off sharpish.
Food banks have always existed in some form or other.
Use of food banks has escalated dramatically during the last 12 years of Tory rule. That fact can't be denied.
The fact that food banks are needed at all in a G7 nation should be a worry both morally and economically. Massive inequality in wealth distribution.
Food banks are not the result of anything which has happened on the last 5 years, including UK attitude to foreigners.
The exponential increase in food bank use can be laid quite squarely at this governing party's feet. The Blair years allowed them to get started.
I'm of the German way of thinkings. We don't need charity in this country we need to pay progressive taxes across the whole of society and the state needs to care for it's citizens without profits for shareholders. There is and never was the ability to do more with less at any time in the recent past and now the bills are going to be huge to put it right.
Food banks are not the result of anything which has happened on the last 5 years, including UK attitude to foreigners.
The weak pound caused by brexit has certainly helped increase prices
The slow down in growth hut UK finances, we missed out on the recovery the rest of the world saw, as we were trapped in uncertainty & stagnation & that allowed the Tories to keep on with their austerity too
It's not the only factor, but it is a factor
which alleged dishonesty is a reoccurring theme that something so blatantly untrue should be said purely for political gain.
The Tories clearly don’t have a monopoly on that tactic!
Pretending Brexit has had no effect on the UK economy is really quite dishonest
https://www.cer.eu/publications/archive/policy-brief/2022/cost-brexit-so-far
That lost growth has undoubtedly contributed
Food banks first appeared in the UK when we had a Labour government and the UK was a full EU member.
Disingenuous nonsense Ernie. Food poverty has rocketed under the Tories. Pretending that has anything to do with past Labour governments, because there were some food banks then as well, is you doing your perfect Conservative dissembling impression.
As for leaving the EU… all that time and money we are wasting… talk about wrong priorities at the wrong time. Still, worth it to… er…
Disingenuous nonsense Ernie
Isn't that a given?
It is supremely ironic that on a thread in which alleged dishonesty is a reoccurring theme that something so blatantly untrue should be said purely for political gain.
It is true that the use of food banks have dramatically increased since 2010.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/382695/uk-foodbank-users/
Use of food banks has escalated dramatically during the last 12 years of Tory rule. That fact can’t be denied.
Of course they have - they are the result of right-wing government policies!
They have nothing to do with attitude to foreigners or something which has uniquely occurred in the "last half a decade".
It is precisely that sort of deliberate and obvious distortion of the truth which alienates voters. All sides are responsible for it, as this thread proves.
Quite. Labour is definitely the safe-but-boring option right now
I'd be happy to go with that right now. It matches my retirement investments.
It is true that the use of food banks have dramatically increased since 2010.
12 years is not the same as "half a decade".
Half a decade was obviously used to distort the truth and make a political point.
Everything is going just fine! Brexit isn’t hitting people. And it didn’t happen because of anything to do with attitudes to foreigners. Everything is going swell. And if it isn’t, it can’t be to do with Brexit in any way, because only good things result from Brexit, like…
Half a decade was obviously used to distort the truth and make a political point.
https://s.yimg.com/os/creatr-uploaded-images/2022-04/8faffc40-c57a-11ec-b4ef-0b559f11a42 f" alt="Last five years" />
It had actually started to flatten after the early days of the Tory Gov, and now has returned to rapid growth
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8585/
Brexit has cost the country huge sums. No doubt at all it contibutes to tje rise in poverty
It's actually dropped significantly in the last year but I am not going to claim that it has anything to do with brexit.
https://www.trusselltrust.org/news-and-blog/latest-stats/end-year-stats/
Food banks are the scandalous consequences of right-wing government policies. They are not inevitable. Being in the EU does not stop the need for food banks. Being out of the EU does make food banks inevitable.
Stop blaming brexit for everything. Let it go. Move on. We need solutions - not shrugging our shoulders and blaming brexit for everything.
coronavirus I suspect causing that 2.5million number?
I don't think Brexit will have had an effect yet, if indeed it has an effect. The changes to importation and the like have still to impact fully, and any effect is also likely to be substantially masked by Ukraine and oil and.....
as another reference
https://www.dw.com/en/dramatic-rise-in-germans-relying-on-food-banks/a-50473042
Food banks are the scandalous consequences of right-wing government policies. They are not inevitable. Being in the EU does not stop the need for food banks. Being out of the EU does make food banks inevitable.
Nope but Brexit weakened the economy and that led to them becoming more neeeded, especially under the Tories
I don’t think Brexit will have had an effect yet
You need to get in the sea, along all the other brexiters.
I don’t think Brexit will have had an effect yet, if indeed it has an effect.
Post ref UK economy stagnated compared to our peers,
Brexit & Johnson's legacy will take years to recover from
It's not had its full effect yet🤪
I don’t think Brexit will have had an effect yet, if indeed it has an effect.
As someone pointed out there has been a dramatic increase in the need for food banks since 2010 (anyone see the film I, Daniel Blake'?)
We hadn't even had a referendum in 2010. But what we did have was elected Liberal Democrat politicians in the Treasury, as well as Tories, both were enthusiastic supporters of austerity. Not sure about their attitude to foreigners though. Although as I pointed out earlier Cameron did particularly disliked migrants and asylum seekers.
QT has just started.... Alistair Campbell, Tim Telegraph writer posh boy and some minor characters
Fiona Bruce has already raised her voice to Campbell....
"dabbles with wokery"
That's the first 30 seconds of QT I've watched for years. 30 seconds too much. Off.
Ernie
Brexit has caused huge losses to the economy. Do you dispute that?
Food banks are the scandalous consequences of right-wing government policies.
We agree on that. What we don't seem to agree on is that choosing to leave the EU, while right-wing politicians hold so much sway in the UK, has, inevitably, resulted in increased right wing policies paired with considerable economic damage. A heady and damaging combo that isn't taking us anywhere good anytime soon. Johnson rode that wave all the way to being PM... and he'll do just fine out of it on the other side of his time in office. People further down the pecking order in our country? Worse off for it. Thanks Johnson... go and enjoy writing your books.
How some of you repeatedly post with such unwavering self-belief that you're experts on everything from to pandemic management to welfare policies, with your 'this is the reason and this is the answer' understanding on pretty much bloody everything, is unbelievable.
It's the way of the internet though, I get that, but some of you really need to give it a rest! And no, people won't contribute to the discussion where they might know a bit about the topic - because you're such belligerent, graph-seeking, overbearing know-it-alls.
Anyhow, carry on, you're doing great work keeping us entertained until the new wordle.
Stop blaming brexit for everything. Let it go. Move on.
I wish I could do GIFs on here.
The characters may vary per thread but it's often the Same Ten W..........
Leave the Conservative MPs to sort this mess out… let’s see how the public end up viewing their party by the time Johnson is finally defenestrated.
Shall we commission this as a piece of artwork?
Quite like Question Time, but find it infuriating sometimes when Steve (the leaver)from Barnsley cannot get an NHS appointment and cannot work out why. Bit like my white van mates who want to retire to Spain, but cannot.
Country that voted to be poorer in 2016 complains when cost of living rises and faces an income and inflation squeeze. That’s not really news though, is it?
The country IS materially poorer and lagging other comparable economies. Whether one thinks it’s a price worth paying is another matter. How much do you think GDP would rise if we rejoined the EEA? Might offset half of the inflation pressure.