I think what happened TJ is that you started to read the link and very quickly realised that it was going to make you feel extremely uncomfortable as it was going to challenge your own personal views on the EU, with in-depth, detailed, and carefully researched analysis, so you decided to abandon it.
Not at all. Its not ther EU thats the issue, its successive government policies and his solution - leave the EU is going to be devastating to the NHS as US healthcare companies take it over, we lose co operation with the rest of europe and our drug costs go up.
I take your point - but I am sorry in my view that speech is simply fitting the facts to the outcome desired. Leaving the EU will not take us back to the 90s in the NHS. that horse has long bolted. Leaving the EU will only damage the NHS further
And of course also the basic mistake of referring to " the NHS" when actually he means " nhs england"
And of course also the basic mistake of referring to ” the NHS” when actually he means ” nhs england”
And right there is conclusive proof that you didn't read the link. How you can give your opinion on something which you haven't even bother reading is quite frankly beyond me. Can you explain to me how exactly that works?
Although to be fair to you, you did openly admit that you "only got a few paragraphs in". So why I'm even discussing it with you I don't really know.
David Owen knows exactly what he means. That's why he mentions "The English Health Department" "Today England is.." "...the north of England" "...health and care nursing workforce supply in England" "The population of England needs..."...40,000 unfilled nurse posts in England" "....the NHS midwifery shortage in England estimated at 3,500" "England is currently training around 20,000 nurses a year..." training applicants in England fell by..."
Its not ther EU thats the issue, its successive government policies
FFS why don't you read the link? David Owen makes it crystal clear the responsibility of successive governments, all of them - Labour, Conservative/Liberal Democrat coalition, and Conservative governments.
And you still haven't answered my question - why for the love of god would David Owen "make the facts fit the theory" as you claim? Do you actually know who he is? He's not another Nigel Farage you know. When he was in the Labour Party there was no one more pro-European than him, he put his own political at risk over his support for Europe.
Since you didn't bother reading the link I assume that you didn't bother reading my original post either, so no worries I'll copy and paste an edited version. Because who David Owen is, is highly relevant to how credible his opinions on Europe and the NHS are.
[The EU did not force competition on the NHS.
As far as I can see he didn't say this
" In fairness to the Commission, since 2002 the then Labour government,thenthe Conservative/Liberal Democrat Coalition government from 2010-2015 and now the Conservative government on its own, not under EU pressure, established an externalmarket in healthwith pressurisedtendering and contracting withprivate companies in the UK, EU and the US eager and willing to participate. "
You then posted “a classic case of making the facts fit the theory” without even reading it properly
that happens a lot on this forum 🙂
"The Strange Tale of Doctor David Owen"
Dr David Owen was of course the leading protagonist in the infamous “Gang Of Four”, the group of MPs who in 1981 broke away from the Labour Party to form their own political party. This course of action split the Labour vote and in no small way help to keep Margaret Thatcher as Prime Minister for 10 years.
Dr David Owen’s motivation was based on 3 major Labour Party policies which he claimed he could never under any circumstances support, ie, nationalisation of the banks, unilateral nuclear disarmament, and withdrawal from the European Community.
Dr David Owen was a particularly strong supporter of the European Community. Indeed he felt so strongly about it that resigned from Harold Wilson’s shadow cabinet in 1972 over Labour’s refusal to back British entry to the EEC. His new party, the Social Democratic Party, formed an electoral alliance with the equally pro-European Liberal Party.
Eventually in 1988 the two parties formed the Liberal Democratic Party, at which point Dr David Owen appears to disappear into political oblivion.
Now I don’t know when, nor whether it was a gradual process or a Road to Damascus moment, but at some point between then and 1996 Dr David Owen transformed himself in a Eurosceptic. I know that it wasn’t after 1996 because he claims that Tony Blair attempted to seduce back into the Labour Party then with promises of a bright political future. A believable claim imo as Owen had been quite a political heavyweight previously in the Labour Party. He had been, among other things, Shadow Secretary of State for Energy, Minister of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, and Minister of State for Health and Social Security.
However he turned down the offer when he apparently realised that Blair was committed to taking Britain into the European currency (I think Gordon Brown won on that one) Owen claims that it was the “best decision I ever made in my life”.
Owen then pops up again in the political limelight just before the EU Referendum during the campaign. He is now a totally committed Brexiteer. Although the former physician hasn’t practised medicine for a long time healthcare and the NHS is still his passion, and he argues forcefully that it is vital to leave the EU to save the NHS. He led the Vote Leave ‘Save Our NHS’ campaign.
Ironical if he hadn’t done what did in a previous life Labour might have won the 1983 general election and the UK would have left the European Community.
That speech reads like a low-intensity moan about the EU using the NHS as a convenient excuse.
Westminster decided to install internal markets so the financial burden of that procurement bureaucracy is ours and will be after brexit. The opportunity he talks about is a 'light touch' system that is open to abuse and incompetent suppliers and subsequent legal challenges that would gum up our courts, which would cost more in the long run rather than the ECJ doing that on our behalf.
Meanwhile, drugs get more expensive, staff leave and we're still not in any position to fill the skills gap.
So - to wind back to the OP - the NHS isn't going to be financially improved by brexit, BJohnson knew it was a lie but said it repeatedly and I'm glad there is a politician going to court.
Well that's what I like to see........read something and then make your comments after you have read it.
I generally find that it works better like that.
Did you have much problem edhornby?
Careful now gentlemen if this continues in a thoughtful and considerate fashion they might role it out to the rest of the forum.
I read both your post and much of Owens article and stand by what I said. His analysis of what went wrong is reasonable, his conclusions cannot be supported by evidence. Plenty of wishful thinking from him like his comments on medicines regulation - he espouses either a deal with the euro agency - ruled out legally or with the FDA which would mean a whole load of other issues.
Leaving the EU means that the NHS will have to be opened up to predatory us healthcare companies as the cost of any UK / US trade deal and both his solutions for the regulation of medicines are complete non starters. We cannot turn the clock back
If yo are reading a piece and come across several things that are utter nonsense then its safe to say that the whole thesis is invalid. ~Arguing from false premises means conclusions are invalid.
Now if you want to pretend that the Brexit Party is a neo-Nazi party, while completely ignoring the fact that it was formed as a direct result of UKIP swinging to the far right and embracing the Islamophobia of fascist parties in Europe
Just want to pick up on this from the previous page, because it would seem that the opposite is true. The brexit party was formed from the splinters of UKIP because UKIP wasn't far-right enough.
This is worth a read:
https://twitter.com/Turloughc/status/1125805034015477760
If yo are reading a piece and come across several things that are utter nonsense then its safe to say that the whole thesis is invalid
That's the same conclusion I came to when I read your bit saying that leaving the EU means the NHS "will have to" be opened up to ......
So at least we can agree on one thing.
This is worth a read
You lied to me Cougar!
So anyway you're suggesting that UKIP lost 80% of their councillors in the local elections a couple of weeks ago because they were now too left-wing?
Btw you have to be careful how you use terms left and right when applied to facists and nazis. There's a case to be made that the Fascist Party under Mussolini was significantly more left-wing than the Tories are today. However the Nazis, with their policies of mass privatisation, were no less right-wing than the Tories. To complicate matters the Italian Fascists weren't racist, certainly not by the standards of the time.
I generally (although not exclusively) use the term far-right in its modern context of meaning a party that is racist, xenophobic, homophobic, islamophobic, sectarian, and misogynist.
Ernie - the NHS being opened up to american healthcare providers is a key aim of the US in any US / UK trade talks. As our bargaining position will be so poor we will have no option. The american drug companies want us to pay more for drugs as well.
Add to the the issues over regulation and reseach then yes - its without a doubt that the NHS will be destoyed by brexit. Privatisation of the NHS is a key aim of most right wing brexiteers
racist, xenophobic, homophobic, islamophobic, sectarian, and sectarian.
So we're talking mainly about the DUP?
Is it also misogynist martinhutch? I edited my post because I buggered up the charge sheet against the far right.
“This effort to change other nations' health policies will be driven by the US Trade Representative Bob Lighthizer when he is negotiating deals to avoid application of US tariffs or, in the case of the UK, a bilateral trade deal post-Brexit,” said Brandon Barford, a partner at Washington-based Beacon Policy Advisors.
“The second goal is that, for the UK in particular, trade negotiations will likely occur in the run-up to the US Presidential election in November 2020.
“The President and his team want to be able to use the NHS and NICE as a foil for his plan that reduces costs for consumers at the point of sale, but without rationing and access restrictions for which the UK system is infamous in the US, particularly amongst conservative media.”
Is it also misogynist martinhutch?
Stop moving the goalposts!
The DUP is against everything, including women, so still fits your criteria. 🙂
Ernie – the NHS being....etc.....etc
TJ please please, I have absolutely no intention of trying to convince you of anything.
I didn't post that link because I thought it might change someone's mind with regards to Brexit, I'm not a ****. I simply posted it because I had mentioned that there is an alternative opinion which claims that leaving the EU will be good for the NHS, and someone said they would like to see it.
Although if I'm completely honest I don't think they really did, they probably just didn't believe that there was an alternative opinion. After all the general consensus on here (although to be fair not everyone) is that anyone who supports leaving the EU must be a pig shit thick racist who doesn't bother to think.
I also did it because it amused to think how they were going to justify calling Dr David Owen a pig shit thick racist.
You lied to me Cougar!
OK, it's worth a read in my opinion.
So anyway you’re suggesting that UKIP lost 80% of their councillors in the local elections a couple of weeks ago because they were now too left-wing?
I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. You were talking about how it was formed, not why councillors subsequently jumped ship.
Btw you have to be careful how you use terms left and right when applied to facists and nazis.
I dunno much about any of that TBH.
After all the general consensus on here (although to be fair not everyone) is that anyone who supports leaving the EU must be a pig shit thick racist who doesn’t bother to think.
How often do I have to counter this assertion?
It's not that anyone - or at least, not that most people - think that "anyone who supports leaving the EU must be a pig shit thick racist," rather that it's where all the pig shit thick racists gravitated towards. It's a subtle but important difference and it's somewhat disingenuous to imply otherwise.
You were talking about how it was formed, not why councillors subsequently jumped ship.
What councillors jumped ship? I'm not aware of any councillors jumping ship. The reason UKIP lost 80% of their councillors in the elections 4 weeks ago was presumably because voters no longer liked what they had become, there was no alternative brexit party for them to vote for in that election. I don't think the majority of former UKIP voters suddenly decided that they were now remainers.
Embracing Tommy Robinson with his ideology of hatred towards Muslims and defending the right to make "jokes" about raping women obviously did UKIP no favours at all. Which backs up my claim that the British people feel a natural revulsion towards that sort of politics. In stark contrast in many EU countries stand on an anti-Muslim ticket and you stand a fair chance of winning. Cougar you once said that people should be worried who they "jump into bed with", next time you say that think about who you are willing to "jump into bed with" in the EU.
No, I know it's not a valid comment, but you made it. It would be as ridiculous as claiming that because UKIP and the BNP are opposed to the Tories you should vote Tory, otherwise you are just as bad as UKIP and the BNP.
On the question of the Brexit Party being "more" right-wing than UKIP which apparently some people are claiming, it is such a weird claim to make. It is completely impossible for the Brexit Party to be more right-wing than UKIP, or any other party, it has no policies. Presumably we are actually talking about some people's opinions that the Brexit Party "might" become more right-wing than UKIP on economic matters.
But I really wouldn't worry too much about it. Firstly it's the voters perception of what the party is that matters here. And the general perception is that the Brexit Party is a party that supports leaving the EU but is more moderate and less racist/islamophobic/misogynist than UKIP. That's what voters believe they have voted for. Which I have to admit that although I wouldn't vote for a party led by Nigel Farage I find that extremely encouraging.
The second reason I wouldn't worry is that the Brexit Party is doomed, it has within itself the seeds of its own destruction. UKIP tore itself apart after winning the previous EU election, it lost every single of its 24 MEPs through bickering. UKIP has only ever once won control of a local authority, Thanet, and within months their majority had collapsed through bickering and arguing. The more power they get the more they argue, they simply can't organise a piss up in a brewery. In the case of the Brexit Party, and the political mishmash it represents, you can magnify that a hundred times. Nigel Farage? Claire Fox? Rachel Johnson? Ann Widdecombe? You're kidding me.
it’s where all the pig shit thick racists gravitated towards
Yes but there's a reason for that, it's not inevitable. Or to paraphrase Harold Macmillan, (the greatest Tory Prime Minister Britain has ever had) events my dear boy, events.
If you are actually interested Cougar, and since you're willing to accept that fascism and nazism isn't your greatest forte, I can elaborate on that. Although it's so off topic that it really should be on another/new thread.
What councillors jumped ship? I’m not aware of any councillors jumping ship. The reason UKIP lost 80% of their councillors in the elections 4 weeks ago was presumably because voters no longer liked what they had become, there was no alternative brexit party for them to vote for in that election. I don’t think the majority of former UKIP voters suddenly decided that they were now remainers.
Sorry, I misunderstood what you were meaning. Point stands though, you asked about party formation, not how people voted.
Cougar you once said that people should be worried who they “jump into bed with”, next time you say that think about who you are willing to “jump into bed with” in the EU.
That's kind of a broad brush though, isn't it. In any case, even if the EU is Teh Evilz as the tabloids and gammons would have us believe, we're still in a better position as a member than on the outside looking in. Doubly so if the alternative is a disorderly exit, which even a "good" brexit stands to be.
If you are actually interested Cougar, and since you’re willing to accept that fascism and nazism isn’t your greatest forte, I can elaborate on that. Although it’s so off topic that it really should be on another/new thread.
Sure. TBH, I know very little about politics generally. It's only since the referendum that I've taken any interest at all. I've been reading up on stuff for the last three years but outside of brexit I'm pretty much clueless.
Okay, I really wouldn't claim to be an expert about anything Cougar but I have had an interest in politics since my childhood. To understand why we are where we are today, and why the far right has developed as it has in the UK, you need to look at the past. And btw Britain's imperial past is central to this.
In the 1930s the British Nazis/Fascist party was the British Union of Fascists led by Oswald Mosley. Despite having been in both the Conservative Party and the Labour Party Mosley was a totally committed Nazi and close to Hitler. He married of the famous Mitford sisters Diana, who was also a committed Nazi and admirer of Hitler. During much of the war both Mosley and his wife were interned, as most active fascists were at the time.
After the war Mosley and his followers decided to re-engage with politics. Now Mosley might have been a fascist but he wasn't stupid, he was a realist and intelligent enough to realise that that there was no future for the British Empire. The liberation of Europe had made it very difficult to justify the subjugation the peoples of the Empire. Besides, Britain was no longer the primary global power now, the United States was. Supporting the creaking British Empire did not serve US interests.
So Mosley focused instead on something which had always been at the heart of fascist and nazi ideology - the unification of Europe. The term "axis" as in the Axis Powers of WW2, comes from a speech made Mussolini in 1936 after an Italian-German treaty in which he said “This Berlin-Rome protocol is not a barrier, it is rather an axis around which all European States animated by a desire for peace may collaborate on troubles” In other words Europe would be united around the leadership of Italy and Germany.
Now I've posted this link before recently somewhere, might even be on this thread, but here again is the party which Moseley formed postwar :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Movement
Mosley perceived a linear growth within British history and he saw Europe a Nation as the culmination of this destiny. Therefore, he argued that it was "part of an organic process of British history", as Britain had united into one nation, and that it was Britain's national destiny to unite the whole continent
Needless to say it wasn't a success. Later in the 1960s he formed National Party of Europe which was a pan-European party, that obviously wasn't a success either. Most of its supporters outside the UK were former German Nazis and Italian Fascists. Only the Italian Fascists, MSI, had any sort of electoral success.
Now Mosley wasn't the only far right politician at that time, Arthur K. Chesterton, another former member of the British Union of Fascists, led a group of mostly Conservative Party members called The League of Empire Loyalists. As the name suggests, the League of Empire Loyalists wanted to preserve the British Empire. This of course put them completely at odds with the pro-European far right, for them Europe was a threat which threaten Britain's ties with the Empire and Commonwealth.
The League of Empire Loyalists were particularly incensed when Harold Macmillan (the greatest Tory Prime Minister Britain ever had) made his famous "Wind of Change" speech in 1960, in which he made the case against white rule and in favour of decolonisation. With clearly no place for them in the Tory party Chesterton went on to help set up the National Front Party.
By that time Mosley had pretty much given up on politics and the NF had all the far right, racist, and neo-Nazi, territory to themselves. The NF was of course very opposed to the EEC, its propaganda in the 60s and 70s talked of much closer links with the "white" commonwealth, "our kith and kin" as they always liked to refer to them as. They were of course extremely supportive of white minority rule in South Africa and Southern Rhodesia, as indeed were many right-wing Tory MPs.
The NF led to the BNP and by that point all far right UK racists were firmly opposed to the One Nation/United Europe dream of Oswald Mosley. Oh I almost forgot, Oswald Mosley;s wife long outlived him and she remained a devoted fascist and pro-European Union until her dying breath.
Diana Mosley lived in Paris and this is what she had to say about Jean-Marie Le Pen, the then leader of France's far right racist party the National Front :
"I’ve had a look at Le Pen’s programme," she confides from her Paris apartment. "He is just a crusty old Eurosceptic Tory backbencher, everything I most dislike. In all essentials, and in particular with respect to Europe, his views are the opposite of mine. Mosley was a dedicated European and could never have got together with Le Pen."
https://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle-2-15039/the-other-lady-diana-1-504476
If Mosley was still alive today she would be very happy to learn that although the French NF had been anti-EEC/EU since its foundation in 1972 since earlier this year it now supports EU membership. Presumably the rise of the racist far right across the EU has helped them to come to this historic decision.
I was going to mention Enoch Powell, the man who would have been last Viceroy of India, as he's quite important to this story, in terms of racism, empire, and anti-Europe, but that's a whole lot more stuff, way too much.
So this is why we are where we are Cougar......events dear boy, events, as Harold Macmillan (the greatest Tory Prime Minister Britain ever had) might have said. FFS I'm starting to sound like Rudyard Kipling! I think it's all this talk of Empire.
events dear boy, events
well I enjoyed reading your post anyway ! Interesting.
sometimes I regret being in IT as I have to spend so much of my spare time learning new stuff instead of reading about other stuff.
the French NF had been anti-EEC/EU since its foundation in 1972 since earlier this year it now supports EU membership. Presumably the rise of the racist far right across the EU has helped them to come to this historic decision.
You presume wrongly, Ernie, opinion polls told the RN what a vote loser Frexit was so they dropped the policy, if you're a populist you promise things that people want even if it's not in their own best interests (or even what you plan for them). The official RN line is now remain and reform from within:
https://www.franceinter.fr/politique/marine-le-pen-renonce-officiellement-au-frexit-dans-son-projet
Edit: to add my interpretation, she's seen from Brixit how catastophic for a country leaving the union is so would rather try to destroy Europe from within.
well I enjoyed reading your post anyway ! Interesting.
As did I. I had no idea how the NF came to be, they are but a vague memory from childhood for me. Thanks for that.
I'm not quite sure how we get from all that to "and now here we are" though, that seems something of a leap.
You presume wrongly, Ernie, opinion polls told the RN what a vote loser Frexit was so they dropped the policy, if you’re a populist you promise things that people want
LOL! So for the last 47 years the French NF has supported Frexit because they thought it was "popular", and now, in 2019, they have discovered that it isn't, so they no longer support Frexit?
I'm sure that I don't have to provide a detailed critique to point out the flaws in that statement. Unless of course I'm wrong and for the last 47 years Frexit has been highly popular in France, until this year, then that statement would work.
Edit: to add my interpretation, she’s seen from Brixit how catastophic for a country leaving the union is...
Despite not living in France, nor being actually interested in what the reconstituted polished-up neo-nazi has to say, I appear to know more in relation to what Marine Le Pen thinks and says than you do Edukator. Note :
Le Pen did not say why she no longer favors a "Frexit," but she has continued to laud the supposed benefits that Brexit has brought to the United Kingdom.
"Since #Brexit, the national wealth of the United Kingdom has outperformed that of the eurozone, their unemployment rate is at its lowest, they created twice as many jobs as in France and salaries have increased since the end of mass immigration!" Le Pen tweeted on Saturday.
Now does that sound like someone who thinks voting Brexit has been "catastrophic" for the UK?
You would have to very naive to believe that the rise of the racist far-right across Europe hasn't influenced Marine Le Pen's new found desire to remain in the EU. And the rise of the racist far-right across the EU is indeed staggering, they are actually in government in Austria, Italy, and Hungary, and you could probably also include Poland.
And we're talking proper racists here, people who are driven bigotry and hatred, not so-called 'racists' who some people amusingly call those who can't see the benefits of the EU or use words such as "coloured people" instead of "people of colour".
The sort of racists who are now forcing the EU to let desperate people fleeing wars, which were mostly started with the full support of the EU, drown at sea. And let's be clear, the governments of Austria, Hungary, and Italy, WANT these people to drown. They argue that the more who drown, the less people will attempt to find sanctuary in Europe. It is a policy of complete inhumanity, the sort of policy which you can expect from reconstituted polished-up neo-nazis.
I’m not quite sure how we get from all that to “and now here we are” though, that seems something of a leap.
FFS how long did you want that post to be Cougar?!! It's completely off-topic anyway.
I said that I left out Enoch Powell, a very important individual in that story. The point is, and I think I made it, is that there was an idealogical struggle on the far-right of British politics. Between the very strongly pro-European far-right and the very strongly pro-white commonwealth far-right. The very strongly pro-white commonwealth far-right won, if Mosley had been successful the result would have been different.
Not surprising that having listened to Europe 1 for 30 years and France Inter for longer I don't have the same opinions or interpretations of what Le Pen is up to. However given how little I typed you've managed to put a hell of a lot of words in my mouth and distort what little I said, Ernie. Everyone in France witnessed Le Pen's U-turn as polling showed Brexit made the French a lot more Euro positive.
You've forgotten that your mate Blair started the war that led to the refugee crisis and the British left is just as anti-immigration as the right which is why Corbyn for example wants and end to EU labour in Britain. Your loyalty to Britian and the left is at odds with you criticism of other country's attitudes to refugees and immigration.
This is bollocks and you know it:
The sort of racists who are now forcing the EU to let desperate people fleeing wars, which were mostly started with the full support of the EU, drown at sea.
You are an unworthy adversary.
However given how little I typed you’ve managed to put a hell of a lot of words in my mouth and distort what little I said, Ernie.
LOL! Says the man who then immediately types :
You’ve forgotten that your mate Blair started the war that led to the refugee crisis .....
Yeah......my mate Blair. I had forgotten that Blair was "my mate". I had also completely forgotten that I wasn't opposed to Tony Blair's wars. You do realise that I'm the same ernie lych that was registered as ernie_lych, don't you?
And quite why "my mate" Blair's bloody wars is a justification for allowing people to drown at sea I don't understand. Are you attempting to justify it because you support the policy? Are you an NF supporter? And no, I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm just curious as to why you are trying to deflect the blame onto "my mate" Blair.
Of course Lepen changed her opinion on Frexit because she knew it would loose her votes.
And you will find that far right did not do as well as predicted in EU election. And in Austria, they resigned from the government.
I’m just curious as to why you are trying to deflect the blame onto “my mate” Blair.
I'm not deflecting it, the rest of the world apart from you blames Blair and Bush (but mainly Blair) for destabilising the Middle East and Magreb. "your mate Blair" was a reference to your strong support for Labour as expresed on this forum since way back when.
I've voted Macron, UDF, Europe écologie les Verts, and LR (though it wasn't called that then), but never FN/RN. I'm a swing voter, I read the manifestos, look at the record of parties when in power and vote accordingly.
“your mate Blair” was a reference to your strong support for Labour as expresed on this forum since way back when.
I have never supported Labour Party whilst Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, and Ed Miliband, were leaders. I have always made that abundantly clear. I have also made it abundantly clear that I always opposed all of Tony Blair's wars.
In the 1997 general election I canvassed for the LibDems, precisely because of opposition to New Labour. I continued to support the LibDems right up until Nick Clegg became leader and he swung the party to the right. After that I supported the Greens. Until thank ****, the Labour Party became the Labour Party again, and not the Tories's "Plan B".
My political position has never changed, but Labour and the LibDems certainly have.
And you will find that far right did not do as well as predicted in EU election. And in Austria, they resigned from the government.
You'll find that it was their best ever result. And they are indisputably immensely more powerful than they were, say, 10 years ago.
Your comment on Austria is an oversimplification. Yes, 2 weeks ago all the Freedom Party ministers resigned from the government. There is now a provisional government and interim Chancellor until early elections are held in September.
In the EU elections a couple of weeks ago the Austrian Freedom Party increased their votes unexpectedly, although their share of the vote went down slightly. They remain a powerful party in Austrian politics. Never forget that their first leader was a former Nazi minister and SS officer. The far-right are very strong in Austria - a quarter of the vote last general election.
a former Nazi minister and SS officer
Who opposed Nazi anti-semitism and did time in a concentration camp as moderate who opposed some policies from within.
And frankly judging the current FPO on the basis of its founder leads you into the same trap as judging the current RN on Jean Marie Le Pen. I don't agree with the politics of either but trying to demonise them with spurious arguemnets based on 1956 just devalues the valid arguments you might make about their current policies and actions which is what we should be concentrating on. I don't give a flying **** about the politcal heritage of Farrage, I oppose him because of what he says and what he stands for right now, Corbyn too. And Bojo too to keep this a minimum on topic.
Hmmm the forums beings weird.
It's a bit silly to dismiss the Brexit party as not dangerous just because they don't have any policies and they are...like British or something and we don't do all that Euro trash shit.
You have to look at the individuals who make up the party, what language they use, who they are targeting and what political allies they are willing to stand on a platform with.
Despite making some interesting points Ernie, you are giving off an air of British exceptionalism.
....trying to demonise them with spurious arguemnets based on 1956 just devalues the valid arguments .....
And yet criticism of the Freedom Party's Nazi origins are so strong that even the leader of the Freedom Party disagrees with you and says that some of the criticism is valid. I don't think he would be saying that if there was no case to answer, do you?
But yeah, this has bugger all to do with Johnson and his pathological lying, even if you add 3 words in reference to him.
I think he is saying that he was "stupid, young and naive" in his youth but isn't anymore. He has managed to make his party and paletable to the masses:
Believe that at your peril. But enough do to vote for him. But some people can't see the wood for the trees:
Such as a guy who spouts more about how great Britain is than anyone I can think of on this forum (except maybe Ninfan) despite his French passport and votes for Corby the EU hater and is in favour of Brexit.
Forgive me for thinking you really haven't grasped what's happening in the UK, and that you are suporting things and people that want to screw people such as yourself over. I'm looking forward to having to take out travel insurance to visit the country of my birth (not), and lsoing five years of pension contributions. Not much compared with many and nothing compared with what you stand to lose, Ernie. Are you looking forward to landing in Roissy in the same way the Windrush people landed in Jamaica? Because it's only Britian's membership of the EU that means that threat isn't hanging over you.
Prosecution not allowed to proceed afterall = hardly a surprise
The Uxbridge and South Ruislip MP's legal team argued that the offence of misconduct in public office was about the secret abuse of power and there was nothing secret about Mr Johnson's claim, which they said had been challenged during the campaign.
Which seems about right to me. Total waste of time and money.
..[i]Mr Johnson, who is favourite in the race to replace Theresa May as Tory leader and prime minister[/i]
We live in scary times 🙁
I can see how the claim might fall short on point 1 below (CPS website) but only that.
a public officer acting as such;
wilfully neglects to perform his duty and/or wilfully misconducts himself;
to such a degree as to amount to an abuse of the public's trust in the office holder;
without reasonable excuse or justification
Prosecution not allowed to proceed afterall = hardly a surprise
Just saw the news just now on BBC
🤔😀
Well, what a surprise...NOT! All you need is sh*t loads of money, jokey persona and a plummy accent and you can get away with anything in this country - although when you see the OECD figures on functional literacy and numeracy in England, it explains a lot. Just confirms we’re living in a ‘post truth’ era, or should that be the ‘age of ignorance’.
