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So is it just me (on STW) who is actually prepared to deny Fascists power and influence by whichever way the situation requires (such as throwing an egg at the fat mate of the KKK) ?
No I did say:
I would beg to differ. You are talking about a party that by its very own nature would deny us all Democracy. Same for the Communists.
Perhaps not as forthright, but I want to see the likes of the BNP swept out of existence.
When you take into context that the vote was for European Parliament seats, then if people wanted to protest vote why vote for the BNP instead of UKIP?
No excuse for it.
Assuming for a moment that everyone here definitely does oppose fascism, how sure are you that the egg/brick/whatever-throwing strategy is the best one? Can it be expected reliably to separate these people from their support base or reduce the size of that base? Does it encourage those who oppose them?
They may be (are) ghastly, but I don't much care for pink-faced tory yahoos either. I am fairly sure that you don't stop people voting tory by throwing things at Dave Cameron. That isn't to say that the BNP and the tories are the same, I'm happy to accept that the BNP may [i]justify[/i] different methods in dealing with them. What I'm less clear about is whether it's going to work.
Rudeboy (or was it you?) mentioned earlier doing stuff in Millwall involving getting the vote out and preventingBNP intimidation of potential anti-BNP voters. NS last month reckoned the BNP does community work in the northern towns, and has activists traipsing around the oubs talking rubbish about immigration and handing out party cards. I suspect they make some incredibly strenuous efforts to get their vote out. And they tell lies and their manifesto is the most astoundingly childish garbage. All of this sort of stuff, surely, can be legitimately and vigorously countered without giving up the basic tenets of how we do government and politics. They got a lot of voters out in certain places this time around, while the main parties (especially Labour) failed horribly. That can be reversed. Seriously taking them on and winning in the problem seats ought to be somethiong that the mainstream parties can really work at. No-one can read their manifesto in earnest and think "I'd like these guys running the economy, they know their stuff".
I may be wrong/misremembering (my leafy ward is not a serious hotbed of fascist activity!) but I'm not sure we saw enough constructive, idea-based fighting of them. None of the anti-BNP rhetoric actually engaged with the sheer stupidity of their platform, it just recoiled from them in horror and derided them as racist clowns or people who couldn't tell a polish spitifre pilot from a british one in a black and white photo. Which is fine, but it doesn't do anything to convince someone who is a little bit racist sometimes and is never going to vote labour again because "they are all the same" not to vote for them. It just alienates him from the guys who are pouring scorn on the guy he met in the pub and thinks uis alright and is standing for councillor.
We come at this from rather different backgrounds. I'm too young to remember the National Front being a serious business, and am wet enought to suspect that if you've beaten the fascists but wrecked democratic legitimacy in the process that's a pyhrric victory. My starting point therefore is that the best thing to do with them is to stop them getting elected and to hold them rigorously to account in the unfortunate situation that they are, rather than treating their election as though it confers no legitimacy on our terms or demonstrates that their voters are idiots and dupes.
But I don't know, and this is a hard one to do on the forum. Stoner's been trying to get you to come out for a jar I think. If you've time I'd be genuinely keen to go over this stuff with you next week. You have a much better perspective on a troubling issue than I do and I've a lot to learn.
Best
Jon
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BigButSlimmerBloke - MemberYou're probably alone in being one of the few idiots who will support fascism by fighting against free speech and democracy. Good on you, the BNP are a minority party with virtually no power or influence, but as long as there are few clowns like you prepared to help them out by feeding them the oxygen of publicity and allowing them to point at you as an example of the lawlessness of today's society, I'm sure they'll grow.
Shoot you? You'll be a Hero of the Reich
Posted 13 minutes ago # Report-Post
You need to back that up with some sort of proof.
Historical evidence would suggest the complete opposite.
Probably one of the best examples of this was Battle of Cable Street.
Here in 1936, anti-fascists (including many from the Jewish community) denied Oswald Mosley and his British Union of Fascists their 'democratic right' to march through the streets of the East End of London.
The Battle of Cable Street achieved staggering levels of publicity. Including of course, for the British Union of Fascists. Indeed more than 70 years later, people still talk about the Battle of Cable Street.
The Battle of Cable Street is generally considered to have been the one of the significant factors in the political decline of the British Union of Fascists.
Whilst I admire your determination to combat the BNP, it leaves me uncomfortable that you act as judge, jury and excecutioner in deciding who is "acceptable" to be in power, particularly as you do so without any sort of a mandate to act on "behalf of the people".
In your post above if you exchange the word "facist" for "infidel" it suddenly reads very differently IMO.
If all groups choose to operate by your principles it would lead to a very unstable situation.
the history lesson was interesting, but this is the 21st century, we have television now, and elections are fought between marketing groups in our living rooms. less about politics than image. that's why they have advertising budgets and spin doctors.
bring your other brain cell into play, and ask yourself what exactly happened when those eggs were thrown at griffin
tv showed scenes of violence against a democratically elected member of a parliament. i know you don't believe in democracy and that no-one should get into any position of power without your say so, but that's not the way the world is.
anyway - that's news, said member gets a few seconds on prime time tv, which he can use to advantage- like i said, illustrating the state of lawlessness we have fallen into
nearly a million people voted for bnp, fair guess there's some who might have, but couldn't bring themselves to. these people might be concerned about those areas the bnp like to target, eg crime, so this might just push them into thinking about it next time round.
too difficult for you work out for yourself?
Or some will say the worst MP's have been egged out of the limelight and show the majority of what ppl think of political parties elected by hatred.
I don't agree with violence to any political or person on the street.
I personally would welcome a peaceful protest march as any other pressure group has carried out.
Whichever-the BNP and it's voters are Nazis. You could have protest voted for lots of other good causes like the Green Party but know you chose a party modelled on Hitler.
Be proud of yourself-History will judge you.
In a nutshell, Zaskar has managed to show why the far left are playing into the BNP's hands.
Straight away you've alienated 1 million+ people; then the other 1 million + will jump on the bandwagon because a democratically elected party are getting shouted down by communists (because that's what you're viewed as)
If the commies came up with realistic aims, we wouldn't be here?
Maybe I too, can make up quotes which I can attribute to Voltaire :I may not be black but I will defend to the death your right to be black.
I may not be muslim but I will defend to the death your right to be muslim.
I may not be homosexual but I will defend to the death your right to be homosexual.
Could read
I may not be racist but I will defend to the death your right to be racist.
Cuckoo hit the spot
Whilst I admire your determination to combat the BNP, it leaves me uncomfortable that you act as judge, jury and excecutioner in deciding who is "acceptable" to be in power, particularly as you do so without any sort of a mandate to act on "behalf of the people".
I'm not pro-BNP but scenes on the TV of one hate filled venemous mob attacking another hate filled venemous mob just smacks of hypocrisy.
The BNP want to remove minority groups from the UK
Anti-BNP protesters want to remove a minority group, the BNP, from the UK.
So the BNP hate foreign nationals and the anti-BNP mob hate the BNP.
Someone please explain how hating any section of society, regardless of creed, colour, race, political viewpoint etc, is acceptable?
Please explain that?
I work in the dirty world of PR and would venture that Griffin would be rightly pleased with his day's work:
Legally elected Euro MP, makes speech, attacked by violent protestors and denied his right to speak to his supporters. Victimised he is in a position that will galvanise his supporters, secure waiverers and divide his opponents.
You only need to read this thread to see how people with the same goal are at each others throats over the incident, rather than marshalling their ranks to oppose the BNP in a rational, legal and democratic manner.
Crude but effective tactics.
who is "acceptable" to be in power
Whoa........ just a minute. Let's get this very very clear.
Are you [i]actually[/i] saying that [u]you[/u] would never decide that a party was "unacceptable" to be in power, no matter how Fascist or Racist it was ?
Are you [i]actually[/i] saying that [u]you[/u] would "accept" a party in power even though it policies were racist and Nazi ?
Are you [i]actually[/i] saying that no party can be too extreme to be in power for [u]you[/u].
Are you [i]actually[/i] saying that if a government was to implement policies such as, the withdrawal of all benefits from black and asian people, removed their right to vote, forced unemployed black and asian people into labour gangs, denied health care and university places to black and asian people, made homosexuality illegal and introduced severe and heavy prison sentences for those who were caught, banned all trade unions except for one union under the strict control of a government minister, re-introduced hanging including for those guilty of manslaughter, made it compulsory for all government employees to be members of the governing party, are you [i]actually[/i] saying, that you wouldn't support any attempt to overthrow the government because maybe, it might have 6 more MPs than the next largest party in parliament ?
Are you [i]actually[/i] saying that ?
Because I am perfectly happy to admit that I, that is "ME", would decide that the government was "unacceptable" and everything possible should be done to remove it from power.
BTW, in my experience and as a result of many conversations over many years with NF and BNP supporters, all those policies which I have suggested, would receive their full support.
Whoa........ just a minute. Let's get this very very clear.Are you actually saying that you would never decide that a party was "unacceptable" to be in power, no matter how Fascist or Racist it was ?
Are you actually saying that you would "accept" a party in power even though it policies were racist and Nazi ?
Are you actually saying that no party can be too extreme to be in power for you.
I think communism is the answer you're looking for.
one party that conforms to your idealogy and no one is allowed to have any other political viewpoint
BigButSlimmerBloke - I attempted to ignore your childish drivel and have a serious conversation with you.
But I was clearly wasting my time.
I think communism is the answer you're looking for.
Actually the answer I was looking for was a 'yes' or 'no' answer.
I suspect that I won't be getting it.
By the same token Ernie/Rudeboy - white "working class" people have been disenfranchised from the political process. Is it correct that the Union Jack (flag of our nation) is not allowed to fly, St Georges day is disregarded as a "racist festival" as is Christmas day etc..
Actually the answer I was looking for was a 'yes' or 'no' answer.
I suspect that I won't be getting it.
You're demanding that people conform to your expectations regarding political stances and views.
There is not ye or no in politics, just a lot of "maybes"
Is it correct that the Union Jack (flag of our nation) is not allowed to fly, St Georges day is disregarded as a "racist festival" as is Christmas day etc..
What utter bollocks. Do you really believe everything you read in the Sun/Daily Mail? Jesus.
On a lighter note - do the BNP really want to do this?
We will ensure that our manufactured goods are, wherever possible, produced in British factories, employing British workers. When this is done, unemployment in this country will be brought to an end, and secure, well-paid employment will flourish, at last getting our people back to work and ending the waste and injustice of having more than 4 million people in a hidden army of the unemployed concealed by Labour’s statistical fiddles. We further believe that British industry, commerce, land and other economic and natural assets belong in the final analysis to the British nation and people. To that end we will restore our economy and land to British ownership.
They are going to get rid of unemployment and renationalise everything. Commies!
Lanesra - is the Union Jack really banned? These pictures could be used as evidence then.
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By the same token Ernie/Rudeboy - white "working class" people have been disenfranchised from the political process. Is it correct that the Union Jack (flag of our nation) is not allowed to fly, St Georges day is disregarded as a "racist festival" as is Christmas day etc..
Indeed.
I'm sure someone posted on here around xmas stating that their HR department has asked them not to send around emails about xmas parties as it would offend employees that did not celebrate xmas.
I'm sure someone posted on here around xmas stating that their HR department has asked them not to send around emails about xmas parties as it would offend employees that did not celebrate xmas.
But who is actually doing this? It's probably paranoid people who have read the Daily Mail too much and are scared of being sued. No-one in the real world gives a shit about nonsense like that.
why is that wrong, under Nu Labour we have gone to a manufacturing country to importing everything.
When they have power, when they are actively or passively subverting democracy, then I will fight them with violence. Until then the only way legitimate way to impose my ideas on others is through the ballot box.
But who is actually doing this? It's probably paranoid people who have read the Daily Mail too much and are scared of being sued. No-one in the real world gives a shit about nonsense like that.
you do, you massive prick
Is it correct that the Union Jack (flag of our nation) is not allowed to fly, St Georges day is disregarded as a "racist festival" as is Christmas day etc..
You see it's bollox like that, which reminds what a brainless bunch of complete ****wits racists really are.
Thank you for reminding me Lanesra. Now I'll go and do something more useful, like go and talk to my cat.
you do, you massive prick
Nice - are you going to explain to me in what way 'the Union Jack is not allowed to fly' then?
(It's only the Union Jack when it's flying on a ship btw - surely a proud patriot such as yourself should know that)
you do, you massive prick
😆
Now I'll go and do something more useful, like go and talk to my cat.
Or log back in as Rudeboy
You see it's bollox like that, which reminds what a brainless bunch of complete ****wits racists really are.Thank you for reminding me Lanesra. Now I'll go and do something more useful, like go and talk to my cat.
There is, sadly, an apparent difference though between national pride and overt racism.
In Scotland we can fly the saltire and wear scotland football tops and we'll be described as patriotic.
People in England flying the Union Jack/ St George's Cross and/ or wearing an england strip are classed as knuckle dragging racists
BigButSlimmerBloke - I attempted to ignore your childish drivel and have a serious conversation with you.
But I was clearly wasting my time.
Ahhh should I surprised?
- you disagree with democracy unless you get to decide
- you disagree with free speech unless you agree with what is being said
- you are prepared to campaign to raise the profile of the bnp
More to the point should I care? Like most fascists, you'll throw insults when debate is too much for you.
I'm not pro-BNP but scenes on the TV of one hate filled venemous mob attacking another hate filled venemous mob just smacks of hypocrisy.The BNP want to remove minority groups from the UK
Anti-BNP protesters want to remove a minority group, the BNP, from the UK.
So the BNP hate foreign nationals and the anti-BNP mob hate the BNP.
Someone please explain how hating any section of society, regardless of creed, colour, race, political viewpoint etc, is acceptable?
Please explain that?
The BNP make it clear that they believe that people have less value because of their skin colour/race. These are beliefs that (presumably) they've thought about, rationalised and adopted - they've chosen those views. That's what I find indefensible. People are born with skin colour and race - it's not an informed choice, or an indication of character. By the "anti BNP mob", do you mean the egg-tossing minority, or those who can't tolerate bigotry? Don't dress it up as politics.
People in England flying the Union Jack/ St George's Cross and/ or wearing an england strip are classed as knuckly dragging racists
Bollocks. Maybe in the past - I've watched England games in pubs in Leeds with Asian lads in England shirts with St George's Crosses painted on their faces.
Stop trying to argue logic with RudeBoy, as he's violent 🙄 all 9 stone of him
🙄
That's one angry young man...
The BNP make it clear that they believe that people have less value because of their skin colour/race.
could easily read
Anti-BNP protesters make it clear that they believe that people have less value because of their political viewpoint
You may not agree with someones political viewpoint, but we're lucky enough to live in a country that allows people freedom of speech.
Some time spent living in an opressive regime, Saudi perhaps, would clarify how lucky we are.
I do not agree with the BNP.
Attacking them in the street achieves nothing.
Actually the answer I was looking for was a 'yes' or 'no' answer.
I suspect that I won't be getting it.
Your answer is 'no'.
a good percentage of the people that I come into contact with daily actually believe that the BNP are the only option for them-
as traditional non voters/ labour if they do, they see "immigrants" as the reason for all of their woes, and who wants to kick them out?
if they did vote, they'd vote labour, its what we do round here( me included), but they see all these MPs fiddling (dont realise, its all parties), so whats the alternative....
Yes its a sad state of affairs, but a huge numbers of people blame everything on "foreigners" and "MPs", no matter what you may think of them, call them, pity them or question their intelegence the great unwashed still have the same power as you( and me) 1man, 1vote.
They wont change their oppinions any time soon, all we can do is offer a realistic, and better alternative that they trust and beleive in
deep down, there is a little fascist in all of us. There is a part of all of us which doesn't respect the freedom of others.
It is usually trivial: When we ban smoking in pubs because we feel people aren't capable of making their own choices, it's a tiny fascism. When anti-alcohol groups suggest we ban parents from introducing their children to wine in a controlled home environment, it's a tiny fascism. When we encourage ID cards, it's a tiny fascism.
When we call for immigrants to be forced - not encouraged - to speak English, it's a tiny fascism.
We allow the fascist in us to win anytime we force others to behave as we behave. There is only one scenario in which we are entitled to stop others from doing something - and that is when their action limits the freedom of other people. When someone drink-drives, for instance, we are entitled to stop them, because their driving can kill others.
could easily readAnti-BNP protesters make it clear that they believe that people have less value because of their political viewpoint
I don't see that discriminating against people because of their race or colour is politics in the 'British parliamentary democracy' sense of the word. We can discuss semantics, but racism is abhorrent and if Griffin has a heart, I reckon he knows it. Political, reasoned beliefs are different are a conscious choice and not something you are born with. Every man is (or should be) born equal - the BNP don't believe this to be true and that can never be dressed up to be acceptable to me.
You can turn this into any 'this could easily read' that you like - some principles transcend political debate. I'm happy to be egged for it.
People would be outraged if someone helped themselves to a bike out of the shed - replaceable property. The BNP aim to remove the rights and basic freedoms of British people. There's very little that's British about the BNP, except an unfortunate sheep-like ignorance which leads their supporters to follow the pack. I presume Griffin thinks we should pull our highly profitable industries out of all Commonwealth countries and hand back the property we 'British' stole as illegal immigrants.
I don't see that discriminating against people because of their race or colour is politics in the 'British parliamentary democracy' sense of the word. We can discuss semantics, but racism is abhorrent and if Griffin has a heart, I reckon he knows it. Political, reasoned beliefs are different are a conscious choice and not something you are born with. Every man is (or should be) born equal - the BNP don't believe this to be true and that can never be dressed up to be acceptable to me.
You can turn this into any 'this could easily read' that you like - some principles transcend political debate. I'm happy to be egged for it.People would be outraged if someone helped themselves to a bike out of the shed - replaceable property. The BNP aim to remove the rights and basic freedoms of British people. There's very little that's British about the BNP, except an unfortunate sheep-like ignorance which leads their supporters to follow the pack. I presume Griffin thinks we should pull our highly profitable industries out of all Commonwealth countries and hand back the property we 'British' stole as illegal immigrants.
You're trying to outline why the BNP is in the wrong, and that's fine, but I'm not pro BNP so there's no need to highlight their bad points.
What I'm trying to understand, is why the anti BNP protesters think it's acceptable to attack a group of people in the street because of their beliefs.
They're trying to rationalise and justify their hatred because the BNP stand for something they're against.
Similarly the BNP justify their hatred because that's what they believe in.
Attacking people in the street, regardless of their colour, creed, race, sexual orientation, political viewpoint etc is wrong. End of story. You can't justify it by saying "oh the BNP hate foreign nationals, and that's far worse than our hatred for them".
Hatred is hatred.
Put it this way, if it was a black or muslim group that had been holding a conference outside parliament, would it have been acceptable for the BNP to turn up and attack them. Of course not, so why is it acceptable for the reverse to happen.
Fight the BNP, campaign against them, stand as a politician, form your own politcal party etc, but don't attack people in the street because you don't agree with them.
I didn't.
Fair points and I agree. When I saw it though I thought 'Yes, pelt the twonk'. It was wrong, I agree.
They started it though.
😉
Put it this way, if it was a black or muslim group that had been holding a conference outside parliament, would it have been acceptable for the BNP to turn up and attack them. Of course not, so why is it acceptable for the reverse to happen.
Fight the BNP, campaign against them, stand as a politician, form your own politcal party etc, but don't attack people in the street because you don't agree with them.
My God he speaketh total sense!!!!! Groups like UAF are no better in my opinion (dons flame suit) They seem to oppress anyone who doesnt agree with them.
Amen!
G - Member
Outrageous attack on his human rights. Part of the problem here is that he was fairly and reasoanbly elected. You absolutely cannot complain once he has been elected that he has been. Its called democracy.Personally I'd throw egss, hammers and bricks at the ****wits who thought voting for the BNP was some sort of sensible thing to do for any reason whatsoever, and secondly at the other parties who have made such a complete lash up of our political system such as to produce an environment that such a thing could come about.
don't blame Nick Griffin, you can't stop him being a cretin any more than you can stop a dog licking its own arse
SO DO I GET AN APOLOGY FROM ANYONE THEN? 🙄