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We went to war supposedly to "liberate" undemocratic countries and help them install democratic systems, yet when our own democracy turns up results that are not popular it is OK to abandon these democratic principles??
Like it or not (and to be clear i don't) nearly 1 million people voted for the BNP. If we had a true proportional representation system instead of the regional one, they would have won 4 seats instead of 2.
The best way to oppose them, IMO, is to engage them in debate to expose their policies and of course, ultimately, to vote for another party in the elections.
The people today throwing eggs and then being interviewed on R4 saying things like "we support free speech just not for facists" and "we are acting on behalf of the majority of the people" (when in fact they have less of a mandate to act on behalf of the people than the BNP) only served to provide Griffin with the opportunity to score some easy points by shifting the debate IMO.
Well I never, Learn something new everyday:
From Wiki...
Evelyn Beatrice Hall, (1868 - 19??), who wrote under the pseudonym S.G. Tallentyre, was a writer best known for her biography of Voltaire. She completed her biography of Voltaire The Friends of Voltaire in 1906. She wrote the phrase, which is often misattributed to Voltaire, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it," as an illustration of Voltaire's beliefs.[1]
nickc - iirc there wasn't a great deal in the way of freedom and democracy during Voltaire's life. So not much chance of him having his bluff called had he said it.
Aye, true enough.
Griffen has the right to free speech perhaps - but that equally applies to those who want to drown his speech with more noise. It works both ways. If he doesn't want to be drowned out he gives his speech in a private place. In public it is perfectly permissible to shout him down.
They should be debating with him (or even standing against him). But, by their actions and not allowing a legitimatley elected politician to speak it is only going to reinforce his messaage to his supporters that they are not listened to and increase his support.
Let him speak and shoot himself in the foot
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
Then they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
I did not protest;
I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out for me.
-Martin Niemöller
Let him speak and shoot himself in the foot
Why would he shoot himself in the foot ffs ? Surely only a really stupid person would shoot themselves in the foot ?
Have a look at this video about 40 seconds in. Nick Griffin makes it very clear indeed that he isn't stupid. Whilst he might be prepared tell the Ku Klux Klan what he [i]really[/i] thinks, he makes absolutely clear to them that he will not be telling the British people. That he says, will have to wait until the BNP quote : "controls the British broadcasting media".
http://www.truveo.com/bnp-linked-to-kkk/id/2305843009249666042
.
a legitimatley elected politician
I think that video proves otherwise.
.
Fascism is [i]always[/i] based on lies. You cannot argue against lies. As Griffin so eloquently explains in his speech to the Ku Klux Klan.
Furthermore, Fascism absolutely thrives on not being taken as a serious threat. In 1919 Mussolini barely managed to get 2% of the votes in the Italian elections. In 1921 with just 35 MPs, Mussolini seized power.
How ? Because no one considered him to be a threat.
It was very similar for Adolf Hitler. Hitler never received a majority before taking power. So how did he do it ? Again, he was dismissed as an idiot who would shoot himself in the foot once he was given the responsibility of power.
A year or two back on this forum someone told me that the BNP were of no threat, and if they were ignored they would simply go away. They are now in the European Parliament, wake up. Learn from history. The BNP will be defeated, but only by accepting the challenge, not by ignoring it. That's how the NF were defeated in the 1970s.
The BNP will be defeated, but only by accepting the challenge, not by ignoring it. That's how the NF were defeated in the 1970s.
I agree, however, I doubt seriously that people are politicised in the way that they were in the 70's. I travelled to both of the big RAR events in London in the 70's. I was 13/14 at the time, the group of people that I travelled with were of similar age. I just can't see kids today being that motivated to do something similar. My own kids have been brought up to despise racism but there's no way I could see them wanting to travel up to London to protest, it's a whole different culture now.
Ernie - don't think most were suggesting ignoring or dismissing the BNP as the Nazis were dismissed in the 30s. Most of the comments seem to advocate allowing them to speak openly and then challenging them by discrediting their arguments.
The earlier post about tolerating pedophilia is spurious as pedophilia is illegal, being a member of or supporting the BNP is not.
We have the right to free speach and if that means talking loudly whilst someone else talks thats fine by me Throwing eggs is a bit naughty though, someone could get hurt.
Throwing eggs at him will only help his cause.
He will now on play the victim card, and get more people to vote for him under the:
Look at me I am for the people of britain and look I am a victim like you people of britain.
He must have freedom of speech(within the boundaries of the law) whether or not you agree with him. If we start refusing people this right, we are not a democracy anymore, just another fascist state.
Then you obvioulsy don't have to agree with his idea
juan - Member
Throwing eggs at him will only help his cause.
He will now on play the victim card, and get more people to vote for him under the:
Look at me I am for the people of britain and look I am a victim like you people of britain.He must have freedom of speech(within the boundaries of the law) whether or not you agree with him. If we start refusing people this right, we are not a democracy anymore, just another fascist state.
Then you obvioulsy don't have to agree with his idea
Parfait, mon vieux!
Well saddly CFH there is quite an history of far right wing party down here 🙁
Funny old topic this...I initially laughed out loud at the egg barrage...but in hindsight what right do any of us have to dismiss the views of a million plus ( including those agreeing with his views but couldnt be arsed to vote) The reasons the likes of the BNP will continue to prosper are linked to a lot of people believing there is a disparity between the way this country treats it's citizens who work hard ...contributed all their lives etc and the way those who haven't, who are perceived to be pandered too
There is a strong sense of this amongst the older generations...some of whom physically fought facism...this is based on talking in depth most days about issues affecting the day to day lives of people
oh and the fact that these votes followed a month of revelations that MPs of all parties think they can screw the tax payers for every penny probably didnt help!
If we applied the egg throwing (green slime) and shouting down (old bloke at party conference) to New Labour what would happen? Oh wait i think i know the answer to that.
I think everyone should turn their back on the BNP
- ala Mighty Bhoosh
[url=
- Mighty Boosh Festival - Naboo turns his back on you[/url]
Throwing eggs at him will only help his cause.
He will now on play the victim card, and get more people to vote for him under the:
Look at me I am for the people of britain and look I am a victim like you people of britain.He must have freedom of speech(within the boundaries of the law) whether or not you agree with him. If we start refusing people this right, we are not a democracy anymore, just another fascist state.
Then you obvioulsy don't have to agree with his idea
exactly
violonce is the last resort of the incompetent. resorting to it implies you've already lost the arguemnt, weakening your position and strengthening theirs. that's what proto-fascists like ernie/gus just don't seem to realise.
are we so morally poor that we rn in fear from them?
nickc - MemberSo you'd be happy to defend to the death his right to say all those things?
i believe in free speech - yes. I take it you don't and think that democracy and the law of the land only apply when they fit your moral code?
I agree entirely BigButSlimmerBloke.
Though don't forget as someone once said "It's the right of every englishman to have the freedom to throw a dead cat at a politician"
I don't know the source, but don't think it was Voltair 🙂
Yes I believe in democracy. The BNP on the other hand don't, they are a party based on lies, and deception. I will oppose their manipulation of the democratic process to further their disgusting agenda.
[i]i believe in free speech - yes I take it you don't[/i]
very good, and free speech? or is free speech ok providing you agree with the contents of the speech.
and do you really believe that giving the bnp more publicity than they could normally afford helps or hinders them?
and do you also believe that giving them the mouthpiece to spout on about the lawlessness of society ("look, our leader, a democratically elected MEP, was attacked for doing nothing more than giving a speech to the party faithful") is a good thing?
[i]Yes I believe in democracy.[/i]
Sorry, inserted wrong quote there - forgot you'd decided to answer a completely different question
[b]
[/b]I believe in justice
I believe in vengeance
I believe in getting the bastard, getting the bastard, getting the bastard
For a bonus point: Song title and band?
new model army - cant remember the title
If the BNP ever did get into a position of real power in this country it would be (initially at least) through the ballot box.
Those who already vote BNP and those who may in future are not going to be deterred from doing so by organisations like the UAF - the fact that a few upper middle class students fancy a spot of "not tolerating" the BNP before they get nice jobs in banking doesn't really help the millions of ordinary working people losing their livelihoods and putting up with poor schools, health care, transport and local services every day - address that and the BNP wouldn't have a chance, insult people's democratic opinions whiel ignoring their problems and the BNP will be well on their way to British parliamentary success.
I admire ernie's zeal in this, and his experience of it in practice. Can't at all pretend to have any experience either of this politics or of activist politics of any sort.
My difficulty with shutting down Griffin like that is that we have these asshats being elected because, supposedly, a load of unhappy people don't want to vote for anyone else who isn't so ghastly. If you chuck eggs at the guy they've just elected then do you not run the risk of strengthening their support and reinforcing the BNP's narrative that they are against the system and for the people, that there is a conspiracy of some sort against them etc etc.
Is the best way of dealing with their popularity really to start a fight with them because they are not legitimate? I can't really empathise with the people who vote for these chaps, but I personally would feel quite strongly if, by some miracle, the bloke I had voted for won a free and fair election and was immediately attacked in the street by people who objected to his politics.
It may be that that's the only way to deal with them. But it does rather seem that once you've surrendered the legitimacy of free elctions in favour of deciding power through street fighting you do then need to win the fight. 😕
All this talk about chucking eggs/bricks.
Did someone say Jehovah?????
"putting up with poor schools, health care, transport and local services every day "
compared to where?
Much of our perception comes from the meedja - and much of the meedja looks at the US SuperRich / TV.
So yes, all of our schools aren't Beverley Hills 90210
and ER (so I'm told by people in the US) is a very cleaned up version of what actually happens in the public hospitals in the US.
At least Casualty is (once again reportedly by friends who work in A&E) a bit closer to what happens
and yes we privatised our public transport which means subsidising it is now out of the question - so you can't have cheap and very efficient.
Rudeboy
New Model Army - Vegence
Had to 😆 at the footage of this on the news
One bunch of hate filled idiots attacking another bunch of hate filled idiots 🙄
I was a member of the ANL and AFA, until I came to the conclusion that reasoned argument and the democratic process is how to deal with ****s like the BNP. It disheartened me to see so many people prepared to stop others rights to free speech while refusing to become involved by either voting (if enough joe public turned out to vote the BNP wouldn't have got a look in) or by intelligently campaining against them and challenging them robustly to expose their lies.
We have to maintain the moral high ground and work within the confines of law, otherwise we are just the same scum that we are trying to oppose!
if enough joe public turned out to vote the BNP wouldn't have got a look in
Really? Or would they have got proportionally the same amount of votes?
We have to maintain the moral high ground and work within the confines of law, otherwise we are just the same scum that we are trying to oppose!
100% right on that one, even if it may seem desperately unfair.
enough joe public turned out to vote the BNP wouldn't have got a look in
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
First they came for the Socialist
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
First they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
First they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
Witness the Fitness - Roots manuva
'Yeah, we'll fight for a democracy and if you don't like it, you can shut the fk up' </irony>.
It seems pretty clear cut to me - whatever you believe or stand for, you can't remove the rights of people voicing their opinions. However, when these opinions insite hatred, then surely this must be an issue for the police?
Other than the racist line from the BNP what other policies do they have? My biggest concern is that Joe Public is dumb enough to vote in a party that has only one item on their agenda and that education, health, jobs and the economy seem furthest from his mind. That scares me as much as some Neo facist sans skinhead
For the record, I hate racism with a passion which is why I didn't vote BNP or UKIP. This is the way to get the BNP out no?
Other than the racist line from the BNP what other policies do they have?
So a utopian socialist nation in which the workers own and share in the profits of industry, sheltering behind a bristling arsenal of weaponry and trade and customs barriers, self-sufficient both in tasty home-produced organic food and high-tech manufacturing, with clean air and peaceful countryside full of thatched cottages, where buses and trains run on time and petrol is cheap, where the criminal fears the law and bad men are flogged, being gradually cleansed of non-indigenous races by an enlightened policy of finding more suitable homes for them in their sorts of places. They do make it sound rather nice...
[i]and do you really believe that giving the bnp more publicity than they could normally afford helps or hinders them?[/i]
I honestly don't know. I don't really care, if the BNP are driven from our society via the ballot box, or by argument, or by having eggs thrown at them, i don't care, as long as they're gone.
Still couldn't care less about whether Nick Griffin feels like his rights have been violated though.
I honestly don't know. I don't really care, if the BNP are driven from our society via the ballot box, or by argument, or by having eggs thrown at them, i don't care, as long as they're gone.
Could quite easily read
I honestly don't know. I don't really care, if the blacks are driven from our society via the ballot box, or by argument, or by having eggs thrown at them, i don't care, as long as they're gone.
Bollocks, BB. Nowhere near the same. Rubbish comparison.
You're starting to sound like an apologist for the Nazi scum, tbh.
Bollocks, BB. Nowhere near the same. Rubbish comparison.You're starting to sound like an apologist for the Nazi scum, tbh.
Do you ever get tired of being a complete roaster?
So is it just me (on STW) who is actually prepared to deny Fascists power and influence by whichever way the situation requires (such as throwing an egg at the fat mate of the KKK) ?
All these fine words about : [i]"I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it?"[/i] And yet so few are [i]actually[/i] prepared to 'defend to the death'. It appears that Voltaire would get few recruits from STW for this 'defending to the death' stuff.
Maybe I too, can make up quotes which I can attribute to Voltaire :
I may not be black but I will defend to the death your right to be black.
I may not be muslim but I will defend to the death your right to be muslim.
I may not be homosexual but I will defend to the death your right to be homosexual.
And all so soon after the Anniversary of D-Day 😐
.
And what's this 'they got a million votes' ? ........ what the **** has that got to do with it ?
"Oh yeah, I used to throw eggs at Nick Griffin every time I saw him, but then the BNP got a million votes so I stopped". So what are you going to do if the BNP gets 3 million votes - shake Nick Griffin's hand every time you see him ? ffs.
In that case I better get my finger out and [i]really[/i] start to oppose the BNP before they get any MPs in Westminster. Because presumably, once the Fascists have got a 100 or 200 MPs it will be completely immoral to oppose them.
And by the time they are in a position to pass laws and arrest people in a perfectly legal manner, I will no doubt be expected to enthusiastically attend and cheer at their Fascist rallies. ffs.
I am prepared to tolerate Fascists to an extent (I don't want the BNP banned), as long as they have absolutely no power and influence. At the risk of repeating myself - as their influence grows, my intolerance towards them will increase. I will never accept living under Fascism because 'it was all done in a legal manner'.
Mind you, since the possibility of me 'living under Fascism' are somewhat restricted by the fact that I would probably be shot** it's all rather academic 😕
** I have a first cousin who's name was released by the Fascist military junta during the Argentine 'Dirty War' as "wanted" due to his left-wing views. This was in effect (as everyone knew) a death sentence. Luckily he was able to flee to Brazil and escaped with his life. I have another first cousin who with her husband, was arrested and tortured for 'living in a hippy commune'. But as neither were guilty of anything other than being 'hippies', they were eventually released and allowed to leave the country. All this despite the fact that I had an uncle who was a colonel in the Argentine calvary. Although he probably did stop my aunt (his twin sister) who doesn't know how to keep her big mouth shut, from being arrested. And btw, many years ago, a year or two before the Falklands War, I once asked an active member of the NF who I had got to know quite well, which country he admired most in the world. After giving it some thought (and he wasn't aware of my connections) he answered "Argentina".
ernie_lynch - MemberSo is it just me (on STW) who is actually prepared to deny Fascists power
No you're not alone. BNP are Nazis scum in this modern day and age.
As far as I'm concerned anyone who discriminates colour, sex, race or sexuality needs to grow up or have an egg...
We're all the same. But it shows how old fashion and primative people are holding up modernisation of the planet.
You're probably alone in being one of the few idiots who will support fascism by fighting against free speech and democracy. Good on you, the BNP are a minority party with virtually no power or influence, but as long as there are few clowns like you prepared to help them out by feeding them the oxygen of publicity and allowing them to point at you as an example of the lawlessness of today's society, I'm sure they'll grow.
Shoot you? You'll be a Hero of the Reich
feeding them the oxygen of publicity
Can you not be flayed alive and rolled in salt for openly quoting the Harlot of Babylon ?