druidh - Member"igrf » The reason folk want and let their kids (including my own) become Catholics or queue up for Catholic schools is simply because of the moral guidelines taught. Regretably there is no alternative to a Religious belief system that gives kids moral guidance and sets boundaries."
Yes there is - it's called parenting.
+1
Catholic Church, probably the worst of the lot, still according to them there is a nice big fire waiting to keep me warm, and plenty of devil's music to be entertained by, along with endless supply of harlots, .....thinking about it thats pretty good.... better than some of the other offers out there .....
I was an Atheist, but then Richard Dawkins annoyed me so much with his banging on about the whole thing I thought if that's what Atheists look like, then I'll just be an Agnostic.
Seriously the only true path to follow has to be Agnosticism surely if we're being pedantic? You don't seem to get many extreme or fanatic Agnostics.
Even Dawkins allows for the fact that there may well be a god or gods, but we don't have any evidence for their existence.
gmandavison - MemberRecently however I have been buying books along the theme of atheism and it's the same mantra that's been reapeted over and over
It would be, wouldn't it. Reason being, it's hard to write 400 pages about how some people believe in god, I don't personally, and that's all OK. Would you buy it?
I find it ironic that celibate religious people seem obsessed with sex.
I must say that it's all I think about if I've not had a any for a week or two!
Atheist parents within them (That should better call themselves Agnostic because they really don't know anything for sure).
So whether you believe or not, you're an agnostic due to your ignorance? I don't think it works like that with a [u]belief[/u] system...
Agnostic just means you can't be bothered thinking about the question - atheists don't say there's no god, they say there's no [i]evidence[/i] for god.
RE is about facts. It is a fact for example that Jewish people celebrate Yom Kippur.
What they believe is a fact whether it is true is not a fact so let me repeat
Can you name another non fact based discipline where opinions are given as much weight in education
I know what Muslims think re Mohammed but that does not make it a fact
It is fact I think the world is round...so lets teach it eh 😕
What was RE about when you were in school?
I went to religious school God is great etc
Do you even know what it's about nowadays?
I was loking at this years syllabus with an RE teacher friend of mine a few days ago and we chatted for a few hours, I have ids in school enduring it and your expertise ?
Do faith schools count as state schools?
As they are largely state funded [ some are funded by the faith but not that many] I would say yes- Always best to be well informed before wading into a debate I think.
there is no alternative to a Religious belief system that gives kids moral guidance and sets boundaries
this is an old arguent and tbh you have two views.
god chose morals on a whim and we obey them because god says so
Or
There is a reason for these morals and anyone can see this and also come to the same conclusion
It is arrogant offensive pish to claim that people who do not believe in a religion have no morals or cannot bring up their kids well.
I dont have my kids foreskin cut off for a belief - is that good parenting? What about female circumcision for religious reasons - good morals again? So called "honour killings" etc
I left high school in the early 90s. They didn't have religious assemblies, and RE taught us about world religions. It was very interesting, and there was no preaching in it at all.
I think atheists DO think there's no god. Agnostics don't know, which doesn't mean they don't think about it.
if your belief system is communism, then all this religious guff is deleted
I was loking at this years syllabus with an RE teacher friend of mine a few days ago and we chatted for a few hours, I have ids in school enduring it and your expertise ?
I'd love to see the evidence of preaching, as I imagine would an AWFUL lot of people.
The reason folk want and let their kids (including my own) become Catholics or queue up for Catholic schools is simply because of the moral guidelines taught.
You can teach moral guidelines without requiring an organised religion, you know. The two are quite separate.
The reason folk "let" their kids become Catholics is, largely, because they're Catholics themselves and that's what they've been told to do.
The reason Catholic schools are popular amongst the godless is nothing to do with morals, it's to do with them often having better resources and equipment, presumably due to the additional funding provided by the church.
In my opinion.
Regretably there is no alternative to a Religious belief system that gives kids moral guidance and sets boundaries.
Codswallop.
That should better call themselves Agnostic because they really don't know anything for sure
Nice try, but no, I'm not going to passively validate your belief system. Sorry.
I'm an atheist, not an agnostic, because whilst it's impossible to know for sure that something doesn't exist, I know for as close to certain as makes no odds. I don't know for 100% certain that there aren't invisible unicorns in my loft either, but that doesn't mean I should be describing myself as unicorn-unsure. That would be lunacy. For all practical purposes, and until evidence presents itself to the contrary, I can confidently state that there aren't any.
It's that tricky 'proving a negative' logic bomb. The burden of proof, if such a thing is required, lies with the religious to prove the existence of gods, not the atheists to disprove it.
I was an Atheist, but then Richard Dawkins annoyed me so much with his banging on about the whole thing I thought if that's what Atheists look like, then I'll just be an Agnostic.
You've cut your nose off to spite his face then, Dawkins describes himself as an agnostic.
I think atheists DO think there's no god.
Well, I'm an atheist and I don't think there's no god. I think there's no evidence at all for god so using Ockham's Razor there probably is no god. Therefore I don't believe in him/her/it.
molgrips - MemberI think atheists DO think there's no god.
We had an epic, terrible thread on this a while back... Atheists come in different flavours, some believe there are no gods, some believe in no gods, which ends up being quite different. It can be a belief or an absence of belief.
It's mostly just bad terminology- caused I think by the fact that the language used was developed and codified in more religious times. The fact that we have a word for people who don't have any religion is weird- we don't have a word for people who don't ride bikes.
I would love you to answer my question
Can you name another non fact based discipline where opinions are given as much weight in education
we know you cannot and that is the power of religion
I would also like to say what an awful lot of other folk think but i lack your arrogance/mind reading
god chose morals on a whim and we obey them because god says so
And the ones God picked and passed down are written in the Old Testament and they are not very pleasant. Surely if God is proposed as wiser than us, we should take these morals and apply them to the letter rather than have his representatives on earth moderate or change them to suit the circumstances?
Surely if God is proposed as wiser than us, we should take these morals and apply them to the letter rather than have his representatives on earth moderate or change them to suit the circumstances?
Ah, but you see, God also gave us the wisdom to know when he was serious, and when he was just having a laugh 🙂
Regretably there is no alternative to a Religious belief system that gives kids moral guidance and sets boundaries.
Frankly this a load of tosh!
I am not religious, and was not bought up in a religious environment.
I know how to behave, I know the difference between right and wrong, and I know how I like to be treated by people, and treat others in the same manner.
I don't need promises of an eternally wonderful afterlife to make me a good person, or the threat of eternal damnation if I'm a bad person. I am a good person because I want to be, and because life is nicer that way.
If a person needs some form of spiritual bribery to be a good person, then actually, they probably aren't that good after all.
[quote=bencooper ]Ah, but you see, God also gave us the wisdom to know when he was serious, and when he was just having a laugh God was from Edinburgh then? I always wondered why Scotland was called Gods Country.
____________________________________
Hi GW - * waves *
You really don't have to be very bright to realise there is no god, as is evidenced by so many atheists. 🙂
I'm a trade unionist, proud of it, i belong to a democratic organisation that looks after my interests(mostly),
I belong to a Union, I've never had the opportunity to vote for a branch officer or any member of the union heirarcy
I definitely didn't vote for corporate sponsorship of an ice hockey team
http://order-order.com/2012/08/22/gmb-boss-the-new-sheriff-of-nottingham/
democratic?
😆
might steal that one
Regretably there is no alternative to a Religious belief system that gives kids moral guidance and set boundaries. don't hit your little brother timmy or god will send you to the big fire.Not planning on using that one tbh.
I know of someone who treats their kids like that. Can't wait until the kids hit adolescence and give them a proper reality check!
I'll be content when RE is only in the curriculum as part of the history syllabus.
If a person needs some form of spiritual bribery to be a good person, then actually, they probably aren't that good after all.
It was so much easier before Martin Luther stuck his nose in - you could be as horrible as you liked, then bung some money the way of the church, and they'd put in a good word with God for you and get you ushered into heaven. Sorted.
Or of course there were all those poor Africans who's souls were saved from eternal damnation when they were christened. Of course they were also enslaved and shipped off to cut sugar cane at the same time, but the good that was done to their immortal souls far outweighed the temporary harm done to their bodies.
My school was heavily Christian-biased and had regular religious assemblies, hymn singing etc. I sort of let all that just wash over me although it was also a requirement of being in the school Combined Cadet Force that you attended Remembrance Sunday Parade. Just an embuggerance to put up with in exchange for all the good bits of blowing shit up and flying. 😉
On the other hand RE was actually quite interesting and not preachy. One of the years was very badly taught (basically a teacher who couldn't be arsed so just put videos on) but religious history and the faith/belief system is actually (IMHO) very interesting. Richard Dawkins covers some aspects of it quite well in some of his books as well.
Regretably there is no alternative to a Religious belief system that gives kids moral guidance and sets boundaries.
And yes, this is incredible cobblers.
Ironically, despite not being at all religious, and coming from an irreligious family, I've ended up with a fairly "christian" set of morals. Reason being, they mostly make sense, which is why they're shared with most other religions. And the reason for that, is that religions don't create morals- they coopt them.
Honour thy father and thy mother
Thou shalt not kill
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bear false witness
Thou shalt not covet
Not a trace of religion in that. And the rest is basically copy protection.
Union officials* are elected by members - are you sure you are in one?
* even paid ones[employees] are often elected but not all.
We are fortunate to be living in (arguably) the most secular country in the world. Elsewhere, the problem of the religious attack on reason and the education of children, not to mention the denial of human rights to gay people and women (often resulting in murder and torture) and the denial of free speech and expression is much more acute.
So, yes. There is a reason why some atheists are angry.
I struggle with long sentences
Anyone fancy a pint?
Oooo, the first post 'day of the big banhammer' religion thread. Lets see how we do
But there's a huge question there.
Are those bad things BECAUSE of religion, or is religion being used as an excuse?
Does for example homophobia exist without religion? I think it does.
All Hail the mighty god Emmteebee!
Does for example homophobia exist without religion? I think it does
Agreed. I remember back when I was at school (some time ago) homophobia was the default for most people. It's very different now. Also, most churchgoers that I know (but not all) are in no way homophobic and that includes many ministers. It's just the structural part of religion that is slow in catching up for lots of reasons.
Does for example homophobia exist without religion? I think it does.
Sure. But a shared belief system, by definition, could also encourage the spread of less desirable beliefs.
It also gives it a friendly face, a whiff of acceptability. Without religion, perhaps many people would be less keen to share ill-conceived controversial views; whereas if you can instead spout bilious rhetoric in the name of God, you're safe in the comfort of your own righteousness.
Maybe.
Though TBH, the whole 'god hates fags' movement isn't particularly widespread this side of the pond anyway. It seems to be mostly restricted to the likes of Westboro, and to be fair Al-Qaeda probably view them as a bit extreme.
As ever, religion gets dragged kicking and screaming into a modern ethical outlook by advances made in secular society. In some places.
Does for example homophobia exist without religion? I think it does.
Of course it will still exist. No one, well no one sensible, is arguing that all the worlds ills would be removed if religion were removed but many of think that religion perpetuates some of those ills. Were it not for religion then there wouldn't be any debate going on about the proposal to allow gay marriage in scotland, it would just be happening.
of course it does but having the word of god telling you they are an abomination is possibly casual in the cardinals views of homosexuality and same sex marriage.Does for example homophobia exist without religion? I think it does.
Most of the reasons why atheists are angry about religion can be found here: http://www.secularism.org.uk/media-round-up.html
"Does for example homophobia exist without religion? I think it does."
yes it does, but it is also vindicated by religion, if i vindicate something the fact that i didn't invent it is irrelevant.
Most of the reasons why atheists are angry about religion can be found here: http://www.secularism.org.uk/media-round-up.html
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases ]and here[/url]
All blind belief is bad, whether it is in religion, atheism or politics. The problem with many Angry Atheists is that they do not really understand the arguments they are reading.
Some (not all) of Richard Dawkins arguments are just as fatuous as the religious doctrine he is trying to de-bunk - he has become a personality cult in his own right.
To dip into gratuitous philosophy, sadly, human society is defined by a group of people with common beliefs (at least goals and methods, which sort of equate to beliefs). Therefore we will always be saddled with either politics or religion. While we form tribes, people will want to join one or another of them. Some of these people will not have thought through their reasons, beyond wanting to fit in. They are the blind believers, from whom the zealots will be drawn. And so it goes.
Depressing, but that is what i believe. 😉
[url= http://www.vice.com/read/hey-atheists-just-shut-up-please ]Hey Atheists, Just Shut Up Please[/url][vice]
This is, for me, the perfect internet atheist vitriol.
And along came Islam.
Junkyard - MemberUnion officials* are elected by members - are you sure you are in one?
* even paid ones[employees] are often elected but not all.
I'm in alright, DD from salary, Union letters to the house
never a ballot paper for an offical nor an invite to a meeting to elect one
no consultation on sponsorship of an ice hockey team, not exactly a sport where "inclusion" is the first thing you would think of. I wonder who gets to eat the prawn sandwiches at home games?
democracy?
I struggle with long sentences, but atheists who define themselves (and people who define atheists) based on the principles of what they oppose is plain dumb.
