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Good question RS. On the face of it, religion is responsible for many wars of course, but there are usually ethnic or territorial divisions as well. So even if both parties had the same religion there could have still been a conflict.How many wars were fought on explicity theological grounds without any other factor? The English Civil War springs to mind. The oft-cited troubles in Northern Ireland do not qualify.
Which is exactly why it's impossible for you to say that it was religion that caused, or was responsible for others' happiness.
Religion, when not prosecuted by force, does not have these downsides.
Complete and utter nonsense.
Tell that to the many groups who have been excluded by the established churches over the centuries.
Exclusion, prejudice and hatred can be just as damaging as physical violence.
Going back to the utilitarian principle, a 'white lie' might create a lot of happiness and if people continue to believe in it all their lives, have no real downside.
But there are massive downsides.
We continue to point them out in every single thread about religion.
Please don't be so disingenuous as to pretend not to remember them.
MSP are those lengths a constant?
Complete and utter nonsense.
Tell that to the many groups who have been excluded by the established churches over the centuries.
Exclusion, prejudice and hatred can be just as damaging as physical violence
Hmm.. yeah I suppose so.. I admit I was thinking of the modern happy clappy love-in style stuff.
So if you consider religion as simply a cover for more fundamental human actions or reactions then it would simply be neutral in terms of common happiness. That is, anything that happened in the name of religion would have happened anyway.
Not sure I agree with that idea though. The number of people who've taken solace from religious ideas must be gigantic.
But there are massive downsides.
We continue to point them out in every single thread about religion.
Please don't be so disingenuous as to pretend not to remember them.
I'm not doing so. The 'it causes wars and death' argument is not clear cut, which is my whole point.
The 'it causes wars and death' argument is not clear cut, which is my whole point.
So you accept that the 'it causes happiness' argument is as equally invalid?
So if you consider religion as simply a cover for more fundamental human actions or reactions then it would simply be neutral in terms of common happiness. That is, anything that happened in the name of religion would have happened anyway.Not sure I agree with that idea though.
My point is that we can never know the answer.
The number of people who've taken solace from religious ideas must be gigantic.
And the amount of self hatred endured by those who's nature ensures that they fall foul of various religious principles must equally huge.
So you accept that the 'it causes happiness' argument is as equally invalid?
Hmm.... not sure.. say my Grannie dies. If I am a Christian I should be happy that she's up in the sky doing whatever she loves best and being in a state of bliss. If I were not a believer, what else would make me happy like that?
The question is, how much genuine solace do Christians experience, and how much of it is putting on a brave face or just following what you've been told?
oooh I dunno, arguing about it is much more entertaining than believing in it. Not so many giggles at church as I recall.Arguing over religion is about as productive as believing in it....
I really wish the first rule of Christianity was the same as the first rule of Fight Club.
This week I heard a friend's kid say 'Mummy, if god is so nice, why has he given me chicken pox?'That's a tough one to answer!
Nah, it's an easy one.
For years we've been telling God to get out of our lives. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand that He leave us alone?
possibly, good point.So if you consider religion as simply a cover for more fundamental human actions or reactions then it would simply be neutral in terms of common happiness
"I hate group X cause I think what they do is well wrong" atleast has a certain honesty to it, even if it's bigoted nonsense
"I hate group X cause god told me to" is pretty low, passing the buck to a supposedly caring and loving deity is ****ed up.
The question is, how much genuine solace do Christians experience, and how much of it is putting on a brave face?
And the answer, obviously, is that we'll never know. 😀
Hmm.... not sure.. say my Grannie dies. If I am a Christian I should be happy that she's up in the sky doing whatever she loves best and being in a state of bliss.
What if she was a nasty old baggage?
You'd be worrying forever about her eternal torment in the fires of Hell
If I were not a believer, what else would make me happy like that?
The celebration of a life well lived, now free from pain and suffering?
To get somewhat on topic, for those who are interested in evolution and biology I can recommend Dawkins' "The greatest show on earth".
In terms of religion bashing (which people might expect and be put off by) it's not that sort of book, I recall there's a small section at the beginning describing why he wrote the book, and another anecdotal paragraph later on.
Other than that it's all about the science of evolution and biology, and the guy is a great writer and delivers it brilliantly.
peterfile - MemberI really wish the first rule of Christianity was the same as the first rule of Fight Club.
It was.
For the vast majority of the past 2012 years questioning the validity of the principles of Christianity would have got you a short, painful period of re education, followed by an unmarked grave.
Many Christians (and fundamentalist idiots of any other religion) are now a bit annoyed that a very small minority of countries allow free discussion of their outmoded and unverifiable beliefs.
We can't accurately model turbulent flow, only approximate it - there's currently no way to precisely predict when flow will change from laminar to turbulent, for example.
Surely not being able to model it is not the same same as not understanding it. It's a stochastic process and we understand the mechanisms which govern the flow. Of course we can't predict the random effects, but that doesn't mean we don't understand them does it?
to clarify I was suggesting it's a good point that many of the travesties blamed on religion may well have happened anyway without religion being available as an excuse/reason. People can be pretty bloody awful to each other even without "divine intervention".
I actually think the majority of people are pretty decent to each other, and its the select few nasty bastards that use tools like religion and patriotism to poison the minds of the masses into acts of barbarism.
The celebration of a life well lived, now free from pain and suffering?
Really? What about when your 4 year old kid dies?
Really? What about when your 4 year old kid dies?
You use religion as a crutch to guide you through difficult times, cursing and thanking the Lord in the same sentence for taking your child.
Really? What about when your 4 year old kid dies?
Well, I very much doubt anything is going to offer much solace in that situation.
People just deal with things the best they can.
Hmm.. but then you aren't a Christian are you? I suspect much solace has come from religion in these situations. But again I am not one so I can't give any personal evidence.
[b]PHYSICS INJECTION![/b]
Surely not being able to model it is not the same same as not understanding it. It's a stochastic process and we understand the mechanisms which govern the flow. Of course we can't predict the random effects, but that doesn't mean we don't understand them does it?
We're modelling it very well for simple, low Renolds number flows. Complexity and Re is increasing with computational power available.
[img]
[/img]Experiment vs Direct numerical simulation of turbulence (this is solving the Navier Stokes equations across tiny-ickle length and time scales without turbulence modelling)
well I did say [i]people can be....[/i] I didn't suggest everyone are complete arseholes.I actually think the majority of people are pretty decent to each other
molgrips - MemberHmm.. but then you aren't a Christian are you? I suspect much solace has come from religion in these situations. But again I am not one so I can't give any personal evidence.
So, in one final attempt to get a straight answer from you, do you believe that is possible to quantify the amount of happiness caused by religious belief?
I would have thought it was clear from my language that I do not believe it is possible to quantify it.
Of course, it's not possible to quantify happiness at all, is it?
I would have thought it was clear from my language that I do not believe it is possible to quantify it.
Well, an hour ago you weren't sure. 🙂
Glad we've clarified that 😀
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/shortcuts/2012/feb/29/who-are-britains-happiest-people ]you can try[/url]Of course, it's not possible to quantify happiness at all, is it?
"Of course, it's not possible to quantify happiness at all, is it? "
Sure is .... here's the my equation to work it out
Goals scored by Spurs*My kids giggles/amount of minutes Jimmy Carr is on tele.
Well, an hour ago you weren't sure.
It's a discussion not a lecture 🙂
Good example. It makes you very happy in the short term but it will most likely make you very unhappy indeed in the long run or even just when you are not currently high - plus it causes a lot of unhappiness for those around you. So the NET happiness of herion is almost certainly negative.
Depends on how clean your supply is [ Faith] and it causes unhappiness to those around you [ gays] So the net happiness of religion is negative.
a 'white lie' might create a lot of happiness and if people continue to believe in it all their lives, have no real downside.
No offence for the example all I couild think of
So imagine your child was not yours ..I assume the white lie is ok then? The fact your entire life was a lie is fine too and your wife did it to improve your happiness?I am sure you would thank her for the little white lie.
I see your point but the thing is religion is not a little white lie now is it it is a huge one that affects everyone and everything...see the compulsory teaching ot RE in schools for example.
If I am a Christian I should be happy that she's up in the sky doing whatever she loves best and being in a state of bliss. If I were not a believer, what else would make me happy like that?
We are back to how good heroin is again arent we...see it can be good, numb your pain, help you carry on etc.
If you get solace from something that is not real the question is probably how mentally ill are you. Perhaps you advocate the adminsitration of placebos to people as a genuine health treatement after all they will tell you it works and gives them solace and cures them - see also homeopathyhow much genuine solace do Christians experience, and how much of it is putting on a brave face or just following what you've been told?
Shuttup you stupid ****ing moron you are talking utter shit 😉People can be pretty bloody awful to each other even without "divine intervention".
What about when your 4 year old kid dies?
Take heroin ....have you not read trainspotting?
I think I may have laboured that point to far now
it causes unhappiness to those around you [ gays]
The majority of Christians I think have no problem with homosexuality. You may be confusing the vocal nutters with the quiet moderates.
If you get solace from something that is not real the question is probably how mentally ill are you.
Not at all. This idea of hard truth as the ultimate golden aim for everyone is a bit daft, imo. Happiness can be more important than truth, especially since truth is such a hotly contested concept in the first place. You can waste your whole life arguing about it or looking for it, and missing opportunities to just enjoy life 🙂
A lot of hardcore rationalists don't have the ability to really understand what it is like to not be one.
The majority of Christians I think have no problem with homosexuality. You may be confusing the vocal nutters with the quiet moderates.
A gay couple can get married in Church these days, then?
Deleted.
Off to work!
Is that the same as actually disagreeing with it?
so easy to do. but sorry that's dragging us away from what was a reasonable discussion, I enjoyed MSP et al's evolution stuffYou may be confusing the [s]vocal nutters[/s] official party line with the quiet moderates
oh my. Cougar posts something about a particular niche view of creation, a quick bit of new discussion but then it takes less than a page to move on to the usual state funding of religion and then a page later to the official church line on homosexuality :(. We've just got to move on to how to interpret the bible and we've done our usual trinity.
same old same old - this is the ONLY time I wish we could break a cycle...
I still thought it was reasonable... Anyway how can there be an 'official party line' on gayness?
Anyway how can there be an 'official party line' on gayness?
I think the official party line is whether or not gays can get married in a church. As has been said, most Christians don't have a problem with it
...and some of it is good. I'm liking the happiness line
molgrips - MemberI still thought it was reasonable... Anyway how can there be an 'official party line' on gayness?
Have you heard of this?
[img] 
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🙂
We've just got to move on to how to interpret the bible and we've done our usual trinity.
Well done RS - now we have all three. can we close this now?
The majority of Christians I think have no problem with homosexuality. You may be confusing the vocal nutters with the quiet moderates.
I think you/they may be the confused one..the bible is unequivocal on God's view of homosexuality
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination.[3](Leviticus 18:22 KJV)
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.[4](Leviticus 20:13 KJV)
Anyone who believes in string theory must be as thick as two Planck lengths!
🙂
and I believe that Max was a Christian, but he obviously didn't understand science...
I think you/they may be the confused one
Yep - there is a lot of confusing stuff there. I wouldn't claim to understand or be happy with it all
[img] 
[/img]
Complexity and Re is increasing with computational power available.
True, yet there are many here who would remove Re from the school curriculum
True, yet there are many here who would remove Re from the school curriculum
class 🙂
No, but really, DNS can't predict transition yet can it? I take it by low Re, you mean laminar flow?
I think you/they may be the confused one..the bible is unequivocal on God's view of homosexuality
Well that's a whole nother theological debate isn't it? Biblical inerrancy and all that. Leviticus vs Jesus (love thy neighbour) etc.