IHN - Not sure yet, a mate has offered to go in with me & we can buy her out as he want's somewhere in the area & it'd be cheaper than renting.
bigsi - MemberHouse is registered in joint names as joint ownership (no stated equity split) so yes i could go for the full 50% but that's not my style.
You are being more than reasonable, she is not, if the house is joint ownership with nothing to describe the split of owenrship it is 50:50 - regardless of who paid what when... She is lucky you're willing to send the 15k back her way... Let her go and get some legal advice, let her see the fee tables from her solicitor, and then see if she is still being pissy...
Cougar - re the restaurant bill, you've met her haven't you 😆
Horrible times. Nobody wins. Incredible how a person changes when money is very much involved. It leaves a taste.
[i]It's like trying to split a restaurant bill by arguing who had the steak, and if someone skipped a starter but had dessert, and whether you had two pints of lager or three, only it's a meal that lasted 14 years. [/i]
Yeah, and in situations like that I sit back and say "okay then, you work it all out and tell me what I owe, because I can't be arsed". It's the same principle, only bigger sums involved.
I personally think you're being reasonable but, without knowing the full ins and outs and the history, people and personalities involved, I'd be tempted to let £5k be the cost of a clean and hassle-free break.
Saying that, these things tend to calm after a few weeks or so as all the parties begin to start thinking logically and not emotionally. You may find an amicable agreement just falls into place as everyone calms down. That's the key though, staying calm.
Oh & she wants me to sit down with her tonight and work out what she will be able to borrow as a mortgage & what its gonna cost her because as a mortgage advisor thats what i do for a living.
Mortgage advice isn't free. I reckon your bill will be about £5k!
That made me laugh sandwich. Get her to sign a fee agreement then send it to the solicitor so they can pay it to me on completion 😆
If there was no prior agreement, and you both contributed to the house to live in as a family home - then its almost certain that she'll get no better than 50%
So give her 50%
Its over, thats the way it goes, you don't owe here any favours any more, and if the boot was on the other foot, you'd be getting screwed for the full 50%, guaranteed.
The rules for non married couples are that each takes out what they put in. So for example, if that 15K put her share of the equity up to 60% overall she is entitled to 60% of the sales price. It obviously depends on the appreciation of the property but £5000 seems very reasonable and if she starts getting legal advice, it might escalate.
The fact that it is registered 50:50 is not relevant. In my case the house was in my exs name but because I put in a big chunk of equity I got the majority of the value when divvied up.
@bigsi, I'm a banker, I see you are a mortgage advisor, I just want to state for the record this recession is all your fault 😕
If the house is registered in joint names she's entitled to 50% of the equity after the loan is paid off. That's my understanding.
I'm not entirely sure what she's asking for, a total settlement of £15+£5 or half the equity growth plus £15 ?
I'd say the main lesson here is that sort of "arrangement" where you are unmarried but she doesn't contribute to the mortgage or pay rent is fraught with danger.
Best of luck with it all and only joking about the recession of course.
Bah, some bloody wimmin! Can't live with 'em, can't [s]live without[/s] kill 'em 😈
You are being reasonable, although you probably know that by now.
The rules for non married couples are that each takes out what they put in... The fact that it is registered 50:50 is not relevant.
Ianv - I can promise you, from bitter experience and a large legal bill, that this is definitely not the case, and that rebutting the presumption that equity will follow the law (ie. joint ownership = 50:50) is a very big uphill battle in all but the rarest cases.
Edit - I think Kernott v Jones is the most up to date caselaw on the subject
Cheers jamablaya... I thought it was all the fault of your lot? 😆
Got a number for a solicitor I'll be speaking to tomorrow so i can get an "experts" opinion, not that you all don't know what you're talking about or anything 😉
Cheers again guys, made me smile if nothing else which is what makes STW great 8)
Pay the 5k, seems a small price to pay to get rid of an ex who sounds like she could become a pain in the arse.
(then sleep with a few of her friends)
The 'interest' is their share of the equity. I think you're right to take the £15k out as a lump sum and then split the remaining equity 50/50.
As you weren't married then there's little 'legal' help out there. As has been said, I think it's perfectly fair to say 'You can have your £15k plus half the remaining equity or spend more money on lawyers, wait a year or two and then end up with less.'
No need to be nasty just firm. It's their choice.
Ianv - I can promise you, from bitter experience and a large legal bill, that this is definitely not the case, and that rebutting the presumption that equity will follow the law (ie. joint ownership = 50:50) is a very big uphill battle in all but the rarest cases.
Maybe I was lucky, but I got legal advice as did she and we were were both told the same: what you put in you have the right to take out, I was not even on the deeds but I got over 2/3 of the value of the house as I had put in the equivalent in equity.
I guess you could work out how much each of you has paid on the mortgage over the years but it's not really worth it.
How much do you now owe on the mortgage of the original £100k?
and yes tbh I would just cut my losses and get rid but try and grab some other stuff you want and make sure she doesnt try and claim part ownership of your bikes!
No idea legally but what would seem "fair" to me would be if she got the percentage of the sale price (minus any fees) that the £15K represented at the time of purchase and the remainder is split 50/50. So if the house was worth £150K at the time of purchase the £15K was 10% of the value. If the house is now worth £300K and you still owe £100K she gets £115K and you £85K.
I think you are being very fair,but my opinion doesn't matter,hers does.You can try to persuade her you are being fair,but it's only when the solicitors bills start to arrive ,that she may start to see sense,but then again she may not.It may not be nice to hear,but giving in to her may be the easiest and cheapest way to sort this out.Sorry.
Ian
I suppose if neither party is going to budge as each believes they're 'right', maybe splitting the difference might be the least hassle.
Ie, offer her an additional 2.5K. Then in your mind you're 2.5 down, in hers so is she, but in the grand scheme of things when you're talking about money into seven figures a couple of grand is neither here not there. Certainly cheaper than solicitors and might be worth the hit just to get on with life.
Bigsi, if your saying that the 5k matters because of the loan then you might want to point out that the loan is the same as the mortgage and needs to be paid of in full before any equity is taken out. After all the home improvements will have increased the house value.
On the 5k front just think how much you paid extra in those first 8 or 9 years. It's not hard to work out if you put in just £500 more than her a month this equates to £48k over 8 years. That's a hell of a lot more than the £15k she put in.
IMO pay the mortgage, any outstanding bills, loans etc. give her 15k then split the rest 50/50. That is more than reasonable.
How about she gets the same proportion of the house value back that she put down to start with. For example, if the house has gone up 10% she gets £16 500.
Having seen it from the other side of the fence - the house MrsMM (beta version) and I shared was purchased with the deposit monies coming from an inheritance from her grandma. House was in her name. All bills etc in joint names. She earned the most money, it was her idea we split the bills percentage wise, based on income...
When we split i popped into a free advice session with a local solicitor - he advised i'd be lucky to leave with the clothes I had on my back....
Fortunately, Mrs MM Mk1 was much more reasonable (as were her family), we split the equity 50/50...
A rather long winded way of saying, i think you're being 100% reasonable.
If it keeps things smooth and moves things along, come to an agreement on the 5k -as said above it'd cost a lot more (and, not, just in £'s) to argue it out through solicitors...
Hope it works out smoothly & quickly.
Sorry about the split.
She says you couldn't have bought without her deposit. She couldn't have bought without your contribution.
I do feel for you, 18 years ago I split up with a boyfriend with whom I owned some cycling stock - he insisted on splitting it half each. I kid you not, we even unrolled a roll of rim tape (yes, really) to measure it to have half each. He tried to claim my tandem and recumbent were half his (no way, I brought them with me).
Lol, I've still got my share of the spokes, I found them at the weekend when I was doing some sorting out - still unused!
Alternatively, split the equity 50:50 then offer her £7.5k to repay her for the half the deposit she lent you. See if she likes them apples 🙂
Ianv and Z111 from memory you are both right there are two forms of co ownership of land "joint tenancy" and "tenantcy in common" joint tenants would get 50/50 split irrespective of deposit tenants in common can get what they put in. Most purchases for couples are joint tenants so that if one dies the other gets the lot.
The answer will depend on what is on the charge certificate (deeds) see a solicitor preferably the one who did the house purchase.
Warning this is based on my memory of my land law module from 20 years ago .
She just won't budge. I've pointed out all of the above and it makes no difference to her. She is just so bloody minded & tight fisted, always has been to be fair. I think she's heading for a breakdown if I'm honest.
She asked me to work out for her how much she can afford to borrow. I said i need her salary slip which she has gone & got. I asked her for it but she has just sat there crying for the last 15 mins. It's pitiful considering she was the one who broke it up with me in the first place.
Jesus, women....present company excepted 😆
Crankboy. I'm a mortgage advisor & can tell you its joint tenants on ours as i remember the conversation with the solicitor & yes you are right that is how it works.
Oh dear, sounds awful (for both of you).
If I get a chance tomorrow I'll ask at work what your legal position is - but don't hold me to that, they are very busy.
14 years?
She put in £15k initially?
Did you put up any deposit?
Was your salary considered in order to get the loan?
You put in more in repayments (how much more?)
Any trust deed?
What does the Office Copy (of your title) say? (Can get from Land Registry for £4).
Does it state anything other than just both your names? I mean as to percentages?
The difference between joint tenants and tenants in common is: if you are joint tenants and one dies, the other gets the whole house - if you are tenants in common and one dies their half passes under the Will - or under the intestacy rules if no Will which, if you are married, is to the spouse. If not married, to children. I can't remember what happens if no children.
Ta bigsi so 50/50...two new words for you distance and boundaries..you won't stay sane if you try to help her plan her finances and clearly your interests don't coincide if you try to help she may turn round and blame you for any problems.
[i]she has just sat there crying for the last 15 mins. [/i]
Wonder what else she'll do to get the £5k...
So if there was negative equity would she be taking on a higher share of the debt?
Sorry if this sounds judgemental but she sounds a right manipulative selfish cow and it might be worth £5k to get rid of her. Can you negotiate some kind of "never darken my door again" clause into it ?
She just won't budge
Tell her to sue you then.
Wonder what else she'll do to get the £5k...
That's a lot of BJs.
This loan you have , how much and for what ?
Has to be factored in. I had a similar situation and ended up fighting and won. I didn't want to but she dug her heels in over a pittance and I had been very accommodating so decided to stand up for my rights. She tried the waterworks and all the other tricks. In the end she sadly was about 30% down on the original offer. I also had a full and final clause put in but that didn't stop a letter 7 years later asking for a contribution from my business sale. How I responded to that is for another thread...
Sorry to hear it but at least no children eh. 50/50 is the best she can hope for without written agreement when house was purchased. If she knows this then she will realise yours is a good offer.
If u give in on the 5k then what else is she gonna try to blag out of it? Half the sofa/wardrobes/wallpaper/lightbulbs... It all adds up...
Also, assume you're buying her out then iirc you will need to pay stamp again on her half?
IME it might be worth encouraging (i didnt say bribing) friendly est agents for some 'independent' market valuations when getting quotes and that way they might come in a little lower than normal :0)
I struggle with long sentences but tell her to grow the hell up.
I be she was one of those people getting a calculator out at restaurants, wasn't she?
P.S and with amateur psychology hat on, money equals power. That's probably why she is seeming so unreasonable, as giving in means you win. Might want to reflect on that yourself for a wee minute.
Given, the house was conveyed into their joint names, the Supreme Court ruled (in Kernott v Jones):
Judge Dedman, after considering Oxley v Hiscock [2005] Fam 211 and Stack v Dowden [2007] 2 AC 432, held that while the interests of the parties at the outset might well have been that the property should be split jointly, those intentions had altered significantly over the years. He considered that the correct test was therefore what was "fair and just" between the parties, taking into account the whole course of dealing between them. He concluded, taking into account Mr Kernott's ceasing to pay any bills, the fact that Ms Jones contributed over 80% of the equity, and the lack of assistance provided by Mr Kernott relating to the maintenance of the children, that the correct split would be 90:10 in favour of Ms Jones.
I assume this time you will actually agree in writing how the value is to be split on sale?IHN - Not sure yet, a mate has offered to go in with me & we can buy her out as he want's somewhere in the area & it'd be cheaper than renting.
Whilst no substitute for professional advice: http://www.independent.co.uk/money/mortgages/ask-annie-how-is-house-equity-divided-when-unmarried-couples-split-790196.html
You tried to charge more than £5k for advice didn't you, did you get her to sign for an extortonate endowment based product too? No wonder she's crying 😆
If you're serious about buying her half off her, then try and see if you can knock off the £2000 estate agents fees you've just saved....
I wonder what might happen if you tell her how little her 'new' mortgage will get her property-wise?
Easier said than done but she needs a reality check.
You are being more than reasonable and this is maybe just the thin end of the wedge.
just sat there crying for the last 15 mins.
before or after you told her you were blogging it live? 😆
Sorry, but as above, I would really avoid giving her anything more the general advice on financials, conflict of interest and risk of retributive actions later, and the fact she seems a little money grabby. If you give the 5k, get her to sign something saying its a final settlement, so she can't come back later.
I think the paying of the 5k to just get it done is looking more and more worth the money.
Others are right though, if the outstanding loan is for housey stuff, it should be paid off out of the sale proceeds before the money is split. Maybe that's your compromise.
And, personally, I'd tell her to do one in terms of mortgage advice. My ex (who's idea our split was too) tried something similar and I explained that whilst I wouldn't do anything to make the split harder than it needed to be, it was unfair to ask me to help her do the things she needed to do to leave me.
