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The problem isn’t the heads of state, it’s the people.
They're the very people JSO antagonize the most, so not only are they being a royal self promoting pain in the backside they are making people less likely to be sympathetic to their aims, making it harder for governments to implement necessary but unpopular reforms. Go JSO.
They’re the very people JSO antagonize the most, so not only are they being a royal self promoting pain in the backside they are making people less likely to be sympathetic to their aims, making it harder for governments to implement necessary but unpopular reforms. Go JSO.
So the alternative is ... ?
So why the numerous complaints from the people of STW about the harsh sentencing of JSOs, Stumpjon? They're raising awareness, provoking debate, and as with the civil rights movement "people" will at some point change. Back in the early 70s I don't remember seeing huge anti-fascist demos when skin heads were beating immigrants up. Today the "bad actors" are having their arses handed to them.
Attitudes are changing and it isn't the scientists alone who are provoking the change. It's the activists who are doing the most to get the message across. So some don't like the message, but it needs to be so big and loud they can't ignore it.
People don't know instinctively when they're on the wrong side, they need convincing.
So the alternative is … ?
Not behaving like dicks and stoking the culture war.
So why the numerous complaints from the people of STW about the harsh sentencing of JSOs
Same old people applying double standards? I notice there are also quite a lot of single track forumites who are quite happy to see JSO getting tough sentences.
So some don’t like the message, but it needs to be so big and loud they can’t ignore it.
Gluing yourself to the M25 is not getting across a positive message. I'm not against the principle, even if in the UK people aren't personally worried about global warming we would all benefit from a move to renewables to reduce energy costs in the long run and keep out of the global fight for fossil fuel.
Maybe JSO should be much more actively lobbying politicians, finance institutions and the like (bit not with orange coloured shite).
Maybe JSO should be much more actively lobbying politicians, finance institutions and the like
or writing letters to their local newspapers, yeah, that could work. I'm sure every activist in history encountered people accusing them of "acting like dicks" - luckily they ignored them so women have the vote, black people can ride at front of buses and so on.
in the UK people aren’t personally worried about global warming
You have to really have worked at it to be this badly informed.
It’s the activists who are doing the most to get the message across
Nope. It’s the fact that the mainstream has taken up the issue. The BBC is doing far more to a raise awareness than someone glueing themselves to a motorway. JSO are a godsend to climate change deniers.
The BBC have been hopeless, sitting on the fence before finally coming around to the most benign scenarios rather the more likely rapidly accelerating end of the spectrum. From 2014 I give you the BBC "Impacts page".
Scientists around the globe are looking at all the evidence around climate change and using supercomputer models to come up with predictions for our future environment and weather.
However, the next stage of that work, which is just as important, is looking at the knock-on effects of potential changes. For example, are we likely to see an increase in precipitation and sea levels? Does this mean there will be an increase in flooding and what can we do to protect ourselves from that?
How will our health be affected by climate change, how will agricultural practices change and how will wildlife cope? And what will the effects on coral be?
And while it may be controversial some would argue that climate change could bring with it positives as well as negatives.
Wishy washier and less commital it would be hard to write. The BBC is finally reacting somewhat late and mildly to the alarm signals from the activists. For over 10 years now the two major French channels have been including climatic change in the weather reports pretty much every night.
An Inconvenient Truth came out in 2006, clearly no-one at the Beeb went to see it.
I am impressed you believe that “climate change will be resolved”, btw, what is that impressive level of optimism based on?
I dont really care if it gets resolved or not. I will be long dead before it becomes a problem and we don’t have kids so no next generation for me to worry about. I also don’t think that it’s that bigger problem. If the human race wipes itself out well so what. The planet will be fine. Other species willl develop and a new apex predictor will emerge. Why should the planet stay in the right condition for human life to flourish.
So why the numerous complaints from the people of STW about the harsh sentencing of JSOs, Stumpjon? They’re raising awareness, provoking debate, and as with the civil rights movement “people” will at some point change.
No they aren’t they are just pissing off a lot of people and giving those with their heads in the sand all the ammunition they need. JSO haven’t changed or moved anything aim the right direction
I dont really care if it gets resolved or not
Yet you told us it would be resolved by senior scientists. Odd to be so certain of something you don't care about.
I dont really care if it gets resolved or not. I will be long dead before it becomes a problem and we don’t have kids so no next generation for me to worry about. I also don’t think that it’s that bigger problem. If the human race wipes itself out well so what.
Ah..... it's all starting to make sense now. You couldn't give a monkeys about climate change because you believe that it won't affect you.
So therefore you obviously have no sympathy for JSO and you are perfectly happy to see them rot in jail, just as long as it doesn't affect you.
I dont really care if it gets resolved or not. I will be long dead before it becomes a problem and we don’t have kids so no next generation for me to worry about.
Sometimes I wish that I was ignorant like this. Must make life fairly simple in one sense.
FM
4 likes for you Ed.
how can people be so blinkered?
I can just imagine the sucking of teeth that would have been going on at the time of the Suffragettes.
“They are just antagonising people. Why don’t they lobby their MPs instead?”
Perhaps if they got their husbands to lobby MPs they wouldn’t have so antagonised ordinary people and damaged their own cause so much.
may I suggest that, if you want to make these constant little digs at a group based upon them being (percieved as) mostly middle to upper-middle class, STW might not be the least awkward place to do so.
Let's not beat about the bush. STW is the epitome of middle class conformism and corporate sycophancy.
Nothing stokes more ire than Intellectual Property theft or a bricked up window in a conservation area.
So therefore you obviously have no sympathy for JSO and you are perfectly happy to see them rot in jail, just as long as it doesn’t affect you
Four and five years. Hardly rotting in jail, they'll be out in two (and a half) years.
The only case of those JSO mentioned^^ that's been sentenced is the largest value in £££ and an attempt to bring everything in and around the M25 to gridlock. £770k economic cost + £1mn+ for the Met alone; four other police forces as well, say another £2mn??
2 1/2 years is hardly stringent for costing the UK £4mn, not to mention the personal costs to ordinary people
We'll see how the painting and Stonehenge sentencing goes later in the year
Four and five years. Hardly rotting in jail, they’ll be out in two (and a half) years.
No it isn't . I wasn't referring to the sentences passed, I was referring chrismac's attitude.
His attitude appears to be that if something doesn't affect him he isn't bothered, so why would he care if they got 30 years? Just as long as their activities doesn't disrupt his life.
He hadn't previously announced that he doesn't care about climate change and that he is isn't concerned about other people's children. Now that he has it explains the whole basis of his argument.
TBH people forget the suffragettes were a bit naughty and it wasn’t particularly all peaceful.
I’m not anti or pro on JSO, but you do need people to protest for environmental issues as when it’s too late,it’s too late 🙁
I am impressed you believe that “climate change will be resolved”, btw, what is that impressive level of optimism based on?
I dont really care if it gets resolved or not. I will be long dead before it becomes a problem and we don’t have kids so no next generation for me to worry about.
So why are you so bothered by protestors damaging property that isn't yours?
they are making progress harder
But you have already claimed that you don't care about climate change.
Make your mind up.
I dont really care if it gets resolved or not. I will be long dead before it becomes a problem and we don’t have kids so no next generation for me to worry about
Very interesting. I know that you are a very poor quality troll but surely you're aware of the impact of climate change to date, i.e. the current climatology and that future changes are pretty much baked-in. The only question left is how bad will this shit show be? The answer is a lot worse due to people with attitudes like yours.
Anyway:
What he should say is that people have been fed lies. That he is going to finally tell us the truth. That immigration is not responsible for the housing crisis, or for the one in the NHS. That asylum seekers being housed in a hotel is not the reason your high street is empty, your industries mothballed, your public spaces scorched, your councils bankrupt, and your community spaces shuttered. That we have laid at the door of immigrants the consequences of an entire economic model that has defunded the state and privileged big businesses and private capital, and concentrated asset accumulation in the south of the country with no foresight or plan. That immigration is not the biggest problem we face; that would be the disgrace of inequality and rising child poverty in the sixth wealthiest economy in the world. He will not say any of this, because Labour cannot be seen to threaten higher taxes or higher spending. Better to blame a lack of growth, and then be muzzled by the implicit cosigning of austerity when immigration is blamed for its consequences.
Many on here including me were concerned that Starmer wasn't going to tackle the Tory rhetoric after Labour won. We were constantly told the only thing that mattered was to 'Get the Tories Out.' The irony that the previous Tory landslide was won on the slogan and the idea that the most important thing was to, 'Get Brexit Done' was entirely lost.
Well, they Got the Tories Out and yet we're left with the exact same problems as after the Tory landslide. Pithy slogans are fine but only if they can be followed up with actions. And to take meaningful actions you need an objective and a plan.
We're still waiting for Starmer to step up. We could be waiting a long time because, of course, he never said he was going to step up during the campaign so we can't exactly complain he isn't delivering on his promises.
but only if they can be followed up with actions.
The actions to improve the lives of the minority of folks who came out to riot are the work of generations. Improving their education, their accommodation, their skills and their employment prospects is not going to the work of ten minutes and announced to a fan fare. I don't disagree with much of that opnion peice (I read it also) but telling folks that they believe a set of lies, and here's 'a truth' told to them by the same set of folks that occupy the same strata in the country isn't going to change a thing, they're not paying attention to it.
Yep, nobody is justify JSO and their activities.
Speak for yourself. I fully support JSO's actions and think their protests are fully justified. Disruption to people's lives might be annoying, perhaps even dangerous sometimes but it's nothing compared to the danger and disruption future generations will suffer from climate change. That's why they do what they do, to wake people up to what they refuse to acknowledge and take responsibility for. The problem we have today is that the general population either think climate change isn't as big a problem as they were first told, or that it's all in hand and being resolved by renewable power and more recycling etc. Neither are true and JSO are doing more than many others to hammer that message home in the most direct (and peaceful) way they can.
Erm, he’s only been in power for 6 weeks. What exactly are you expecting to happen in that time?
This.
Am I optimistic? Not especially. But it seems somewhat unfair to expect anyone to reverse umpteen years of Tory vandalism in a month and a half.
Erm, he’s only been in power for 6 weeks. What exactly are you expecting to happen in that time?
This is for the UK government thread but since the question has been asked how about "a clear vision"?
After all apparently the majority of voters worryingly believe that the UK is heading in the wrong direction:
Of those polled, 22% said that they think things in Britain are heading in the right direction, 52% in the wrong direction and 19% neither.
And back on topic, with the exception of not pointing an accusing finger at Farage and shining a spotlight on his culpability I thought that Starmer dealt with the far-right riots fairly well. Unfortunately according to opinion polls the voting public don't agree, although they support the harsh sentences imposed on the rioters by a large majority.
I suspect that Starmer's problem, with respect to the public being unimpressed with his performance during the rioting, is probably fundamentally down to the fact that he so desperately lacks any charisma.
A more charismatic Prime Minister might have judged the mood of the nation and have gone to the scene of a particularly violent riot and made a rousing speech denouncing hatred and division and loudly proclaimed their commitment to democracy and the rights of all individuals to live free from fear, followed by one-to-one interactions with local residents who had been affected.
But he isn't known for his deep commitments and passionate speeches.
That's not very fair, he's a dull, logic-driven, prosecutor. He's not Obama and to be candid we went down the popular orator route and look what happened.
Judge him in 6 months, not 6 weeks. If things haven't started to change then you can throw mud. You don't need charisma to be a good leader.
Wait 6 months to criticise him? Like the voting public I will judge him on how he performs on a day-to-day basis. As I said I with the exception of the Farage issue I thought that he dealt with the riots fairly well, that doesn't appear to be the majority view of the electorate though.
And pollsters fully recognise that Starmer is still enjoying the honeymoon period which all new PMs can expect btw. I am not sure that it will extend for 6 months though. I guess it will depend on how he deals with inevitable crisis.
I suspect that Starmer’s problem, with respect to the public being unimpressed with his performance during the rioting, is probably fundamentally down to the fact that he so desperately lacks any charisma.
Nah, that's the sort of bobbins Sunak was desperately trying to sell in June. Biggest problem was the right's shiny new narrative of "2 tier policing". Gained a load of traction, that has.
I find myself agreeing with ernie on Starmer's performance re the far right thug riots.
I would have preferred him to pin this on Fartage more firmly - the right is split at the moment - the opportunity is there to clearly show that there is an 'acceptable' right wing and an unacceptable one. Not just a continuum.
But overall the approach of Starmer and Cooper seems to have stopped the actual rioting as promptly as can be reasonably expected.
That’s not very fair, he’s a dull, logic-driven, prosecutor.
Well whether he likes it or not he's PM and PMs are expected to visit places and speak to the public from time to time, especially at times of crisis and tragedy as in this case. If he doesn't do that then he'll rightly be labelled as aloof, out of touch, uncaring and all the other things which will damage his chances at the next election. The UK electorate do not like aloof technocrats, they want a visible, inspiring and empathetic leader who can connect with normal people.
I think many agree he/they dealt with the riots themselves pretty well. This time.
However, the underlying cause of the riots remain and that has to be dealt with because it is going to manifest itself again. Not necessarily as riots, but perhaps in another way that doesn't end up with public opinion going against the perpetrators.
He needs to do something to start to deal with the decades of lies that have somehow managed to successfully lump illegal immigration, asylum seekers, and legal immigration into a single bag that the right can then say is what is making people poor.
He needs to do something to start to deal with the decades of lies that have somehow managed to successfully lump illegal immigration, asylum seekers, and legal immigration into a single bag that the right can then say is what is making people poor.
Agreed. Stopping people chucking bricks and bottles needs doing first. But it is not all that needs doing.
You can reasonably criticise day to day based on what he (Starmer) says and does. I will do the same, I didn't vote for him, disagree with some of his plans and promises.
But you can't reasonably criticise him day to day on how things are now. That's what was left over from a decade of increasingly spiteful vandalism and division, and it would take a while to turn round however perfect he was.
My apologies, I came to the wrong conclusion based on the fact that Starmer's popularity fell during the rioting. I assumed that it was due to his handling of the crisis (perhaps his personal performance did effect that?) but the public approved of the Labour government's handling of the crisis
Public approves response to riots but Starmer’s appeal fades, new poll shows
In terms of the severity of the response, 44% think the government has reacted proportionately to the outbreaks of violence and unrest and 26% think it didn’t go far enough. Only 18% believed ministers had overreacted. There was a similar view on the sentences handed out, with some 70% thinking they were either about right or not harsh enough.
But you can’t reasonably criticise him day to day on how things are now.
He can't reasonably be expected to have done anything to prevent these riots but he can be criticised for not doing anything to prevent the next crisis that is going to arise because of the conditions and the misapprehensions many people are living under.
I would have preferred him to pin this on Farage more firmly
An open goal which should have been ruthlessly exploited. Opportunities like that don't come very often
Half of voters think Reform leader Nigel Farage is responsible for riots, poll reveals
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-uk-riots-poll-b2598252.html
The ground was very fertile and with precision attacks more damage could have been inflicted on Farage
Public approves response to riots but Starmer’s appeal fades, new poll shows
Yes Starmer's approval rating is -7% which puts him at the top of this lot.
Yes he's more popular than Nigel Farage and Tommy Robinson, who would have thought it?
Public approves response to riots but Starmer’s appeal fades, new poll shows
And today's other big news is that water doesn't flow uphill