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Gravy wrestling…
That’s not a thing.
It's got to be better than sieving gravy.
Imagine how much gravy you'd have to make...
How does this leaflet from the last riots square with the man who threw the beer back?
The police were in the middle so no obvious self defence need on his part vs just moving out of range.
Plus throwing stuff back is unlikely to tick the "protect yourself" box. Unless you really like cricket bowling/baseball it will just give tit for tat.
a German study a while back about Pediga protests, found that Counter-mobilization
does not prevent Pediga taking to the streets, and large counter-demonstrations are associated with larger subsequent Pediga protests, and violence against the either groups of protestors reduces the likelihood that they will stop protesting.
In all fairness, if a bunch of thugs appear outside my house demanding I be deported or lynched whilst shouting abuse at me, I'm not going to take much notice of a German academic report.
Imagine how much gravy you’d have to make…
Considerably less than Fartage and Yaksmilk-Lesbian have made out of the whole 'bit of a mess' they stirred up.
What relevance is that to the discussion about an individual’s sentence?
The relevance was a discussion I was having with Nick who seemed to think that the individual should have stayed at home.
No one has made any attempt at a response to my question on the previous page either.
Perhaps everyone is stumped.
What was it again?
It looks like the more serious charges are due to start arriving in court today, so its going to be interesting to see the sentences handed out.
Its been violent disorder so far and jail periods have been pretty serious, but today... Andrew McIntyre will be at Liverpool Crown Court today, charged with encouraging murder, violent disorder and possession of a bladed article.
Encouraging murder sounds pretty bloody serious. I suspect he won't be seeing the light of day for a while. Apparently people already charged with violent disorder are being warned that their cases are being looked at again and the charges against them could be upped to rioting which carries double the potential jail time
Merely pointing that out at the JSO trial got an old woman arrested.
At the JSO trial 11 people got nicked for doing so.
That is despite the high court having already said "nope. read that plaque in the old bailey" in Trudi Warner case which was at a Insulate Britain hearing last year.
Incidentally the government finally abandoned its appeal in her case yesterday.
Encouraging murder sounds pretty bloody serious.
And illegal may I add.
For Ernie;
How about someone currently on a two-year suspended sentence after being caught with a Lucozade bottle filled with ammonia, along with being in possession of cocaine and heroin who attends a demonstration wearing a balaclava, punches someone in the face repeatedly and attempts to kick someone who was already on the ground? What should they get?
He’s already been sentenced and got less time for the most recent offence than the can thrower, which seems unfair.
In all fairness, if a bunch of thugs appear outside my house...
Yep, I agree, but that's not what happened to Amer was it? I thought he'd gone to mosque, found the riot, got shouted at, threw same cans. Got arrested.
If he'd stayed at home, he wouldn't be looking at 20 months. Although I'd be astonished if he couldn't appeal it.
I thought he’d gone to mosque,
Well if that is the case why are you suggesting that he should have stayed at home?
Whether he went to the mosque to pray or to defend it seems perfectly reasonable to me, he obviously didn't go there to cause criminal damage.
It is a fact that would-be far-right rioters were thwarted by overwhelming numbers of counter-demonstrators. As I said previously on this thread the EDL would apparently typically send a scout to film the size of a counter-demonstration before returning to a pub where the decision would be made whether to have a go. No way would the far-right stage a "protest" if they were met by overwhelming numbers.
Edit: The judge in this case accepted that the individual concerned had not gone there looking for trouble
Sentencing Walid, Judge Robert Linford said he accepted he had not been “looking for trouble”
Well if that is the case why are you suggesting that he should have stayed at home?
I'm saying if he'd stayed at home, he'd not be looking at 20 months. He didn't need to go to mosque to pray, he could've done it at home, and even if he went, he didn't need to start throwing stuff about that got him arrested. FAFO.
He didn’t need to go to mosque to pray, he could’ve done it at home
So you believe that he should have yielded to the far-right and have allowed himself to be intimidated. That is not how you defeat fascism.
He absolutely did the right thing and did not stay at home. Although he should not have thrown back the 4 beer cans, that's illegal, I am reliably informed 😉
Edit: The judge did not criticise or punish the guy for being there, he accepted that he wasn't looking for trouble, so I am not sure why you keep suggesting that he should have stayed at home.
It reminds me of the Jean Charles de Menzies case when some people tried to argue that had he gone back to Brazil when his visa had run out he wouldn't have been shot dead by the police. It's not really much of an argument even if it is true.
So you believe that he should have yielded to the far-right and have allowed himself to be intimidated. That is not how you defeat fascism.
Now you're just putting words into my mouth. Stop.
That is not how you defeat fascism.
Throwing beer cans at dimwits who can't articulate why they're on the streets having a barney with the cops isn't defeating fascism either. These aren't fascists, theses are morons. They couldn't spell fascist let alone describe it's philosophy. Tommy Ten Names is a fascist; he's fine and on his holidays, he's not been defeated, and he couldn't give two shits about the idiots he's thrown under the bus either.
Amer's in prison for making a stupid decision, like I said I feel sorry for the fella, but throwing beers cans about while there's a riot on is only ever going to end one way.
Words into your mouth? get a grip. Suggesting that he should have prayed at home instead of going to the mosque is clearly suggesting that he should have modified his behaviour to suit the far-right wish to attack the mosque.
How else would you describe it?
Throwing beer cans at dimwits who can’t articulate why they’re on the streets having a barney with the cops isn’t defeating fascism either.
It is pretty pointless just repeating the same thing over and over again. No one has said that throwing cans of beer back was the right thing to do. You of course know that.
You were suggesting that he shouldn't have been there in the first place. Not even the judge has suggested that.
@timba, four cans is exactly what the Novara report says. And I would say that going to a scene of widespread violence isn't the correct framing, it's that he went to a scene of widespread racist violence directed at people like him, with the intention of standing peacefully against it, and that matters.
Edit: jesus I was behind in this conversation. It seems this detail doesn't matter to a lot of people and four cans was enough to justify the sentence. I'm as bafelled about this point of view as ernielynch is -- clearly he lost his temper and ****ed up, but given the context, I'm astounded at the harshness of the sentence.
Its easy to be a fan of judges handing out massive sentences until they hand out a massive sentence to someone you like
... and what sort of person are you @tenburner?
If you could describe yourself in 10 words what would you say? What is your spirit animal? Do you believe in ghosts, pixies, trolls?
I wondered what had happened to tenburner.
How many posts before you're caught in a direct lie again? Or are you just going to snipe with a sentence at a time?
He didn’t need to go to mosque to pray, he could’ve done it at home
He could. And then they win. That's exactly what they want, people of colour to be scared to leave their houses.
Now you’re just putting words into my mouth. Stop.
Nah, I'm with Ernie on this one. (I know, I was shocked too.) That's exactly what you said, that it's his own fault for having the audacity to be outdoors. If that's not what you meant then you articulated it poorly.
These aren’t fascists, theses are morons.
I highly doubt that the Venn diagram here would be two discrete circles.
How about not derailing the thread onto personal attacks against an individual?
Personally I thought tenburner's comment was quite sage.
How about not derailing the thread onto personal attacks against an individual?
My 3rd sentence wasn't my best.
But it's not a personal attack to point out that someone stated two contradictory things about where they live in relation to the topic of immigration and/or crime.
Its easy to be a fan of judges handing out massive sentences until they hand out a massive sentence to someone you like
People who commit violent disorder or riot? No tears spilled over their sentences here.
The Attorney General (Victoria Prentiss at the time) raised an appeal on an earlier court case through the court of appeals, which changed the ability for defendants to use beliefs as a reason for property damage and so on. That occurred between the Colston 4 and the JSO trials.
Indeed. It's an excellent example of how the government can influence the judiciary to get the result it wants, and refutes Binners' touchingly naive viewpoint.
which changed the ability for defendants to use beliefs as a reason for property damage
Makes sense to me. Just imagine if every rioter decided to use the defence of their 'beliefs' to justify torching a library? We all obviously think that their Tommy Robinson style 'beliefs' are nuts, but that doesn't mean that they hold them in any less importance than Tarquin and Miranda hole their own 'beliefs' about climate change, does it?
The judiciary has to be impartial and treat all as equals, so if Mr White-yet-with-dreadlocks is allowed to spend his time in court using climate change as a justification for whatever bell-endery he's been charged with this week - painting a race horse orange or whatever - then the judge must then also sit and listen to why Tommo thinks that people coming here on small boats are causing the destruction of western civilisation which is why he torched a Vauxhall Corsa
So I'm sorry but 'I don't like the outcome' doesn't indicate a conspiracy.
4 years 8 months for that idiot in Hull!
The one on the right.
David Wilkinson, 48
Forty Eight... :/
Can't find any way to display a pic at the moment. 🙁
Blimey! He must have had a tough paper round!
Indeed. It’s an excellent example of how the government can influence the judiciary to get the result it wants, and refutes Binners’ touchingly naive viewpoint.
Not influence, they challenged the interpretation of the law and asked for clarity, the appeals court reviewed and clarified, which has removed the defence by belief argument, i can see both sides of the argument, it's why laws change with the times quite a lot.
I expect that not everyone who goes to football matches, the O2, and the Albert Hall, have good intentions
Albert Hall? I think the last classical music riot was at the premiere of The Rite of Spring in 1913.
The ears of a rugby player, with the face of a smack head, it's quite the combination.
I actually like the fact that far right agressors are being given stiff scentences.
I have to say I’m delighted with the sentencing for both the rioting nutters and the jso nutters. Peas of a pod just with different beliefs
Those beliefs being:
JSO: That we should block roads with our bodies to cause mass public inconvience and hence pressure the government to act in the way we want.
Rioters: That we should block roads with burnt out vehicles; block road junctions and only let through cars of white people; throw bricks at cops and through the windows of random people's houses; burn down buildings full of the non-whites we don't like, and hence cause mass public inconvenience (and fear) to pressure the government to act in the way we want (and scare off the non-whites from coming here. And all the ones the born here, too).
I can't see how JSO's tatics are useful, and I'm not sure they understand the Overton window, but to see them as equivilent to the rioters we're seeing getting sentenced is ludicrous.
Just imagine if every rioter decided to use the defence of their ‘beliefs’ to justify torching a library?
What's the problem? They have to persuade the jury that their actions were justified. Good luck with that. I assume you think the Colston Four should've been sent to prison.
So I’m sorry but ‘I don’t like the outcome’ doesn’t indicate a conspiracy.
Sigh. Rejecting an argument I haven't made and recycling a silly picture just tells me how little you have in your locker.
CaherFull Member
Given them heafty sentences I’m certainly going to think twice before an evening’s rioting.
Ditto, nice weather again tomorrow and after going shopping I was intending to head back into town for a bit of rioting and looting. Not sure I'll bother now and a little peeved as I was looking out for some knock off Crocs.
First world rioting problems I suppose.
I suppose this thread'll do as he's definitely a bad actor.
Forgetting about a donor paying for his little holibobs trip to the US, the following is pretty amazing in a bad way:
Farage went to the USA to see his mate that almost died and to "represent Clacton on the world stage".
He must have been chuckling to himself when he dictated that!
I can’t see how JSO’s tatics are useful, and I’m not sure they understand the Overton window, but to see them as equivilent to the rioters we’re seeing getting sentenced is ludicrous
All this demonstrates is your own lack of comprehension. As I've posted in other threads, despite my alignment with XR I'm no huge fan of Roger Hallam. However, to suggest that he's unaware of the Overton window is quite simply ridiculous. Firstly, he is aware of it....and secondly....the whole modus operandi of JSO is an attempt to navigate and shift the 'Overton window' (no-one really uses that phrase these days) via the radical flank effects. This is something that Hallam himself has written about extensively. #rantover
chrismac
Full Member
I have to say I’m delighted with the sentencing for both the rioting nutters and the jso nutters. Peas of a pod just with different beliefs
I would hate to imagine what sentencing you would hand out if the ******* were drinking Red Bull....!
JSO keeps popping up as a comparison and it shouldn't
The point about pre-meditation has been raised in the case of the disorder in Plymouth. It isn't necessary evidence to prove the offence (although it can be used) and doesn't figure in the sentencing guidelines unless it reaches the threshold of either instigator or significant planning, at which point it becomes more serious.
In the JSO case see points 10, 11 and 12 (linked below) for the instigation and significant planning in that case. These are the judge's remarks about the (separate) sentencing hearing
Violent protest or non-violent protest; you can be imprisoned if harm is caused to our democratic society
All this demonstrates is your own lack of comprehension. As I’ve posted in other threads, despite my alignment with XR I’m no huge fan of Roger Hallam. However, to suggest that he’s unaware of the Overton window is quite simply ridiculous. Firstly, he is aware of it….and secondly….the whole modus operandi of JSO is an attempt to navigate and shift the ‘Overton window’ (no-one really uses that phrase these days) via the radical flank effects. This is something that Hallam himself has written about extensively. #rantover
@Tom-B, my colleague (geopolitics researcher) was telling me the other day that Overton became frustrated about how his ideas were understood, i.e., this idea of shifting the Overton window by acting in ways radically outside it. According to my colleague (I've not read up on this), Overton thought this may work when one also has control of the full media landscape, but if not, it's a real gamble of a tactic. If this is true, almost no one understands the Overton window nowadays.
I should've elaborated in my other post sorry.