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Driving up and down the M5 this week and went through a couple of sets of roadworks with the "Average Speed Camera" signs and the big yellow camera poles. Most people stick to the posted 50mph limit, but there's always some nobber who comes steaming through at well over 50....which got me thinking....is it for real? Does anyone actually ever get caught and nicked for exceeding the average speed? What's the cut-off, 1mph over or 10%, 55mph? Any of you ever been caught exceeding the average speed...just curious?
not me no, but then I'm the kind of knobber that drives 8mph under the speed limit and has raging arguments with my passengers.
bloody panopticons 😡
bloody panopticons
You're going to have to explain theflatboy! I've Googled panopticon, but I'm missing the connection 🙂
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Lots of people get nicked in them I believe - nearly 300 a month in one section of roadworks in Cumbria
Lots of people get nicked in them I believe - nearly 300 a month in one section of roadworks in Cumbria
So do we believe 300 people were nicked because the Highways Agency put a sign up saying so? I want proof!
Must admit this si something I've wondered about.
BLATANTLY obvious average speed limit signage and cameras, 95% of traffic doing the speedlimit, the rest sitting at 70+. What do they know that we don't? I really hope they're not so blind that they've failed to notice the signs and cameras, and if they really don't care, they'll lose their license* in about 50miles..
* this does assume they've got one I suppose...
Anyone find it scary that someone who doesn't understand the meaning of "average speed" has a driving license?
We have lots on M1 and around Nottingham - and the number of people who slow for the camera, then belt off again, slow for the camera - repeat to fade...
the panopticon is a famous prison design that involved a central watchtower and a circular distribution of cells around it, meaning that the prisoners could, in theory, always be being watched or never. it was impossible to tell.
it's used in theoretical discussion these days to describe a situation where you are forced to conform to a set of rules because there is a chance that at that very moment someone is watching you to see if you break them.
with these average speed cameras, as opposed to the fixed ones that you brake for specifically, you have to go at a constant speed for 10 mile stretches because the only way to find out if they really are checking involves getting penalty points and/or a fine. hence, a panopticon.
Luck of the draw I think.
Average speed cameras work in pairs, so you can avoid them by changing lanes. However, I think to combat this avoidance technique, the cameras may not be paired consecutively anymore, or on the same lanes.
yes, they work, we had them at roadworks recently.
BUT, a rumour cirulated that you must pass both cameras in the same lane for them to work. So, pass first camera in inner lane and second camera in outer lane, you won't get bust. Local cops appeared in papers saying that cameras are there for a reason, road safety, blah blah, but did not actually deny this. Either because a - it's true, or b - possible effects on revenue generating effects of fairly expensive cameras.
I didn't fancy the finding out, but what I do like about them is the picture is of the front of the car, just where motorbikes don't have number plates.
[url= http://the-panopticon.blogspot.com/ ]Panoticon - am I missing something?[/url]
GeeZed
Thats published figures for successfull prosecutions that I got from Google - you really are paranoid.
I couldn't find it via google but I seem to remember one section got 1000+ a week.
Again from memory they have much less leeway than gatsos.
Yes, many/most of them are prosecutable - sometimes there is a period when the roadworks have been moved/extended & the distance between cameras hasn't been verified so they aren't calibrated, and sometimes the police decide that (for whatever reason) they won't prosecute a given section - eg when newly laid concrete is curing so there are no contractors working in that zone. Mrs P was in charge of some motorway jobs for a while last year, hence the knowledge. The 'bloke down the pub' lane changing idea doesn't work any more either.
the panopticon is a famous prison design
Political philosopher Jeremy Bentham was the inventor, one of the leading lights of utilitarianiasm (the principle that we should do what provides the greatest good for the greatest number of people).
I always struggled to see how his fancy prison fit in with his ideas.
I bet he'd like the speed cameras though!
BigButSlimmerBloke - Member
Panopticon - am I missing something?
see above. or see the explanation on the very site to which you link.
To avoid having your reg number snapped by an average-speed Panopticon, you could closely tailgate a Pantechnicon.
hehe, good idea!
my car is so dirty they'd have no chance of getting a ligible photo of the plate.
you really are paranoid
No not really....hang on, I think somone's looking at me....no it's okay.
Actually I want to believe they work because I stick to the limit and I can feel smug as the speeding nobbers go past at 70mph, satisfied in the knowledge that they will be getting a letter from the Constabulary. Just find me a real live person who has been nicked for exceeding the average speed, not anecdotes.
Most car speedos are miles out, so I tend to use my GPS to gauge speed and end up passing others at a relatively faster pace. Most cars are doing 45mph when the speedo reads 50.
I have once used the advantage of a motorbike with an average speed camera trap. However temping it is, it's not wise on a regular basis as a motorbike doing well in excess of the speed of other vehicles is rather obvious on traffic CCTV!
It seems highly unlikely to me that the cameras don't work across all lanes simultaneously. Why wouldn't they?
"I can feel smug as the speeding nobbers go past at 70mph,"
I did this on Saturday. I was keeping up with the 3 lanes of traffic on the M3 at 80mph and failed to notice passing the yellow posts of the first set of cameras (I'd told my GF to shut-up several times already). I did notice that suddenly I was alone and, in the mirror, a retreating "wall" of cars doing 70mph behind me - gulp!
I may get a ticket in the post. I think she should pay the fine.
a rumour cirulated that you must pass both cameras in the same lane for them to work
It's true.
MCN had a good look into it a while ago and actually got a statement to proove it.
Things may have changed since then, but I've certainly steamed through more than one set in the car, picking a different lane for each camera, and not been caught.
As for the motorbike, well, I'd better not say.....
😉
Absolute rubbish that you can avoid a fine by changing lane - don't you think they may have thought of this? The number plate recognition camera timestamps the first image - puts it in the database. Second NRC (doesn't matter which one) timestamps the second image. The processing system compares the two timestamps in the database - bingo. Yes I do have a friend who got caught in one
A GPS will show that your speedo is 10% slow, so at indicated 50 you are actually doing 45. If other drivers gamble that in a 50 limit the trigger will be 55, they will be doing 10mph more than you while probably staying safe
Panopticon
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Absolute rubbish that you can avoid a fine by changing lane - don't you think they may have thought of this?
Not rubbish at all. They have thought of it, and they know it's a weakness and generally keep quiet about it. I'll see if MCN have archived the article to shut you up.
😉
[i]Not rubbish at all. They have thought of it, and they know it's a weakness and generally keep quiet about it. [/i]
I doubt very much it's a weakness, it's such at trivially simple exercise to have a query that checks multiple lanes, that a) no one would have missed it out in the first place. b) it would take a couple of minutes to implement if they had.
A much more likey option though is that they simply don't have any average speed cameras installed in the first place.
Even if the changing lanes things works then as on normal motorways you only have 3 lanes then you're stuffed when you go past the 4th consecutive camera.
A load of yellow SPECS average speed cams are in the process of being put up on the M3 between jcts 2-4 BTW
Well, the MCN article isn't on their website archives that I can see, sorry. I remember reading it quite vividly and you can argue the toss all you like, but that's all you're doing. Like I said, unless it's been changed (Which is very possble!) for whatever reason, motorway average speed cameras aren't/weren't able to track you if you moved between lanes.
3 lanes then you're stuffed when you go past the 4th consecutive camera.
Luckily there's usually only 3, and you're not stuffed if you see No.4, just pull over for a minute!
🙂
You're not stuffed at the 4th camera as the camera's are paired, so the chances are the lane you choose isn't paired with the first camera you went through.
[url= http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23370879-details/Drivers+can+avoid+speeding+tickets...by+changing+lanes/article.do ]http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23370879-details/Drivers+can+avoid+speeding+tickets...by+changing+lanes/article.do[/url]
[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7048645.stm ]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7048645.stm[/url]
[i]Most car speedos are miles out[/i] Where did you read this piece of nonsense? Do car manufacturers not bother making speedos properly then?
Gary_M - MemberMost car speedos are miles out Where did you read this piece of nonsense? Do car manufacturers not bother making speedos properly then?
there's generally a likely variation of up to 10% either way. tyre pressures and other factors all affect their accuracy. if you have a satnav then put your current speed on the display and compare it to what your speedo says. our focus shows 50 on the speedo when we're actually doing just over 45.
"Most car speedos are miles out"
I've done a few tests with my GPS in both my cars and they suggest that the speedos read 10% down vs the GPS.
SPECS: yes it was those I went through.
How do you know your satnav is 100% accurate.
how do you know that you are a real person, rather than a character in a simluation being controlled by a being you could never imagine, let alone understand?
I don't, but then again I haven't claimed that is or isn't the case.
From the manufacturer:-
"SPECS uses linked video cameras to monitor a length of road. Linked cameras do not have to be adjacent; they may bracket other cameras within the speed control zone. Despite what you may read in the press, SPECS is not lane specific, or limited to vehicles that enter and exit the zone in the same lane."
http://www.speedcheck.co.uk/specs.htm
From Viz Top Tips, regarding bombing through an average speed camera, one correspondant recommended a solution of pulling over for a spliff. First class!
"Most car speedos are miles out"
Some, not all.
Most German car speedos are very accurate.
Certain Japanese manufactures can over read by as much as 7-8mph at about 70-80mph.
flatboy - yep, that's why speed cameras have a certain leeway. It's to account for the possibility that you may think you're driving at 30mph because your speedo says so, but you're doing 35 actually (though normally it's the other way around).
The other halfs Nissan is shockingly inaccurate. Seventy in her car is same as 70 in mine. The signs that tell you what speed you are doing reckon at 30 she needs to be registering 35 on the speedo.
And the traffic cop next door agrees. Reckons the Tom Tom he has in the civilian car is as accurate as the properly calibrated speedo in his jam sandwich.
exactly. apparently my initial claim that they are allowed to be slightly inaccurate [i]either way[/i] is wrong, i've just found out that they're allowed to read too high a speed but not too low, so if anything you're going slower than you thought, rather than the opposite. makes sense.
Yes, so the cameras are linked (paired) and they don't have to be linked to another camera in the same lane, or to the next subsequent camera in the same lane, or other lane.
This is what I said originally.
A single camera is only linked to another single camera, not each and every camera in the section of roadworks.
So there's a good chance you won't be prosecuted if you speed (either in the same lane, or by moving lanes)...just the luck of how they're linked.
SPECS have just cleverly worded it on their website. They're not going to opening publicise it are they 🙂