[Closed] Armstrongs bubble soon to burst?

He doped. We all know it.

You have direct proof of that do you? Cos I'm sure Jeff Novitsky and the investigating team would be fascinated to hear about it. Until then, it might be an idea if you preface that with "in my opinion..." or "I believe..."

How apt that the chap that discovered EPO died yesterday.

I can follow that people see LA beating Ulrich, Pantani and think if he's beaten dopers then he must have doped too, despite no positive tests. But why does no-one ever question Induarain's dominance for 5 years?

But why does no-one ever question Induarain's dominance for 5 years?

Big Mig was a freak of nature, huge lungs, huge heart.

it might be an idea if you preface that with "in my opinion..." or "I believe..."

why? He doped.

As per FB-ATB ref

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/8267669/Eugene-Goldwasser.html

It's fascinating how much EPO we produce in relation to the amount of blood we make over our lives.

I like to believe that Armstrong wasn't doping, until proven otherwise.
The human body is capable of taking a lot more punishment than our brains tell us it can - perhaps someone who has suffered through chemo has a higher pain threshold. A lot of the riders mentioned previously in this thread have had a record of being mentally fragile on their off days (Ullrich, Pantani) so a good athlete with a very good mental attitude could probably outperform then. A lot of Armstrongs gain came from the mental game on the road but he also had the physical attributes to just rub it in a bit more (whether doped or not)

So in Armstrong's era the best riders up against him were Ulrich, Basso, Pantani, Vinokourov, Landis, Hamilton, Riis, Miller, Rasmusson, Virenque, Valverde... Anyone see a pattern there? The majority of these did not test positive until after Armstrong's first retirement. The tests in the early 2000's were not great, and the main way of testing for EPO was a hematocrit test which allowed up to 50, Below that and you were pretty safe.

But does anyone seriously believe they suddenly started to dope once Lance retired? So if they were doping when racing against him and he was still beating them how was that possible bearing in mind the advantage that doping gives you?

Hora (and the other believers) please read a book called "From Lance to Landis" and see if you still believe. It also deals with the myths given by Lance as to why he was faster (biggest lung capacity - it wasn't, highest VO2 max - actually pretty low by pro cyclist standards, lost loads of weight after cancer - actually around 2kg)etc.

I believe cycling is much cleaner now than it was - I don't think Wiggins would be able to get 4th in a race that was full of dopers - and the freak results now seem to get explained pretty quickly (Ricco, Schumacher, Kohl etc) but for around 12 years from the mid 90's I firmly believe that pretty much the whole peloton was doing it - including Lance - and the testing was pretty shonky.

warton- think I saw in an interview they mentioned Mig had a larger than average lung capacity, but it wasn't clear how much was related to freak of nature or from excessive training.

perhaps someone who has suffered through chemo has a higher pain threshold

It doesnt hurt per se - makes you feel like crap for a while (depending on underlying fitness) and causes massive hunger (well did for me anyhow!) but as for pain other than the needle in your arm doesnt actually hurt...

I'm far from convinced Indurain was clean either, especially towards the end of his career when EPO was around and there wasn't a reliable detection for it.

Fuzzywuzzy, that's just it. There's all the hoohah over LA, but nowt over Big Mig is it just that he's not as well known, his achievement to be first to win 5 TDFs in a row was quickly surpassed and could speak French?

epicyclo - Member

How can someone be tested so often and not be found out? Maybe because he is innocent?

Tehre are many many people from many branches of sport now known to have been doping that never tested positive.

The dopers especially the americans are very scientific and systematic and one step ahead of the testers.

It is a total myth that Armstrong is " the most tested athelete in history" Many others tested far more rigorously over many more years.

?While there is no direct evidence the circumstantial case is overwhelming - from inadmissible tests to sworn testimony in court - but for me the most damming is all his teammates who we now know to have doped - and his doc was a know doper.

Its simply not credible that he was clean

how was that possible bearing in mind the advantage that doping gives yo

interesting thought. What advantage DOES doping give you?

regarding Big Mig I thought I'd heard rumours he retired early 'cos he didn't like the risks of doping with EPO - to wit the not waking up in the morning.

With LA virtually everyone he's ridden with has either been caught (always just after they'd left his team) or admitted to doping. Occam's Razer suggests the simplest solution is that LA doped.

It has been said on more than one occasion that Indurain was doping and I don't have much of a reason to question the authenticity of the sources. ( I don't think there is a legal problem with that statement!)

It's a while back, so memory might be wrong...

... but wasn't Indurain's dominance largely down to his time trialling prowess?

I don't believe there has been a clean TDF winner ever. They are all at it. Indurain, LeMond, Contador - the whole lot of 'em

don't believe there has been a clean TDF winner ever. They are all at it. Indurain, LeMond, Contador - the whole lot of 'em

[i]"They are all at it"[/i] - if that's the case, then surely the problem is with the teams, and beyond that the very structure of top class cycle racing itself. We're surely long past the stage of believing that doping is a matter of cheating individuals, or even the occasional maverick director or doctor?

Armstrong used his team to tow him to the finish extremely well.

Armstrong's team mates have had a nasty habit of being caught doping.

Maybe Armstrong himself was clean but was being towed by some doped up accomplices.

Just a thought.

Armstrong used his team to tow him to the finish extremely well.

Did they also have special invisible clothes and bikes to help him in the many TT's he won?

but wasn't Indurain's dominance largely down to his time trialling prowess

I cannot be bothered to speculate about Armstrong is or isn't he guilty, so just have to wait and see the outcome of the investigation. Besides Armstrong narrowest of victory's in the TDF was against Ulrich who has admitted to taking drugs, I doubt I would be shocked if Armstrong is a doper.

warton - Member
"Armstrong used his team to tow him to the finish extremely well."
Did they also have special invisible clothes and bikes to help him in the many TT's he won?

Yes - they used some very advanced technology.

Alternatively, Armstrong was a talented rider with an unusual medical history who his team gave a relatively easy ride (OK I personally wouldn't find it easy) so that he could shine on the individual days.

Of course if my basis-less speculation is correct it wouldn't necessarily mean that Armstrong wasn't a cheat (or indeed that he was) - depends if he, rather than the team, knew.

That Spanish snake- why does no one accuse him? Especially with the dodgy Spanish lab/Police and the (Spanish) investigation clearing him.

Funny that. Yeah lets all respect the yellow jersey huh.

Bloody snake.

Back in 2003 when Lance fell after his bars were caught in a spectators carrier bag- yeah any rider smacked up could have recovered as strongly as him when arguably he was in his prime/peak.

Many a time in the TDF he crushed other riders. Yeah they were all clean huh? So why was his prowess then so convincing- he had a talent along with his fitness and application?

So many jealous bitches in the cycling world. Its what stopped me road riding when I was a teenager- the petty older male cyclists.

igm, to be fair you've got that right re the team, ignore me I'm being argumentative

Many a time in the TDF he crushed other riders. Yeah they were all clean huh? So why was his prowess then so convincing- he had a talent along with his fitness and application?

or more likely, racing at club level

So you honestly think alot of club level riders don't use 'help'?

wtf are you talking about hora?

So many jealous bitches in the cycling world. Its what stopped me road riding when I was a teenager- the petty older male cyclists.

road racing? or road riding? why would peoples opinions stop you riding a bike, unless you were racing, then wouldn't you be racing against kids your own age, not men?

I actually think LA is a very talented athlete and assuming a level playing field would still have had a successful pro cycling career. I still don't believe he rode clean though.

Lemond is an interesting one, he's passionately anti-doping now but also had the suspicious ability to dominate in flat TT's and the mountains. That said he did make the best use of technology and was at the forefront of training science. Personally he's one of the few (if only) multi-tour winners I'd give the benefit of the doubt to, I can't say I'd be stunned though if it was ever proved (or more likely he admitted) he doped.

What did one of the main secondary sponsors of USPS develop and manufacture.

hora - you are doing well today, I reckon you've done no work at all what with all that righteous anger 🙂

So you honestly think alot of club level riders don't use 'help'?

But I would expect world class athletes to be competitive at club level clean. Not at world level though.

My next door neighbour is recovering from cancer treatment.
He described it as the most painful thing he has ever undertaken.
It has changed him physically and mentally.
Would the pain and suffering Lance experience from cancer treatment even compare with a bit of suffering in the TDF.
When he has been at deaths door, and everything that entails, why dope?
He is a highly driven individual who wants to be the best at whatever he does, on or off the bike.
An exceptional athelete.
I met him once while he was buying coffee and chocolate biscuits, he was pleasant and friendly, a normal guy but with an incredible aura of being driven to be the best.

My next door neighbour is recovering from cancer treatment.
He described it as the most painful thing he has ever experienced.
It has changed him physically and mentally.
Would the pain and suffering Lance experienced from cancer treatment even compare with the suffering of the TDF.
When he was at deaths door, and everything that entails, why then go on to dope?
He is a highly driven indivdual who wants to be the best at everything he does, on or off the bike.
An exceptional athelete.
I met him once buying coffe and chocolate biscuits, he was pleasant and friendly, there was a powerful aura around him of self belief and winning mentality.

Sorry about double post, thought first one hadn't gone on.

I'll readily admit that out of the Americans that I'd like to meet are:

Lance Armstrong
Bill Clinton
Martin Luther King Junior (obviously hypothetical)

Your LAdulation shouldn't have given you a common sense by-pass though Hora

Sure he's a great athlete, but a clean great athlete??

I never want to have cancer or survive afterwards. I'm sure I'd be a shadow of my former self. The man is a ray to others around the world.

Go and shit on someone elses role model.

I met him once buying coffe and chocolate biscuits, he was pleasant and friendly

I've changed my mind, he's innocent.

I've changed my mind, he's innocent.

I'm not so sure until I know what the biscuits were

Go and shit on someone elses role model.

Can you not see that he's the one ultimately shitting on his fans? He will be rumbled one day.

In your opinion, surely. Unless you know something Novitsky doesn't? In which case I urge you to come forward with this crucial new evidence.

They are eminent internet theorists for the prosecution. Gifted in the art of reading a summary on a google news page 😆

In your opinion could a clean Lance beat a doped Ullrich? Do you understand anything about human physiology and the oxygen parameters which would be necessary to produce the power he had to produce? It will come out one day.

Seems to me he beat him on numerous occassions.

Surely on at least one of those the powerfully built pillhead could have beaten him once by his 'amazing smacked up powers'?

wouldnt smoking dope just slow him down? i say he's more of a hero (had to google who he was as i'm not into road riding) for winning that many times and being stoned.

team hora!

I guess for some of you he will never be good enough or clean enough.
What happens when he rips up the ironman?
Why even attempt it (and Leadville) if it was about doping.
For Lance its about winning, because he can.