What was the moment they transformed from the Tartan Tories into a left wing party?
Good grief, they haven't been Tartan Tories for more than a generation, back when Labour were a left wing party.
I think people trying to define what the SNP are, are onto plumbs at the moment. It's not settled, they have supporters, members and MPs from all walks of life. What they will ultimately becomes is undecided due to the rapid rise in all of the above imo.
I think that's what the attractiveness is to alot of people to be honest, the chance to define the party.
I've just realised that jambalaya had already answered the question. This is what happens when you don't bother reading jambalaya's posts
If we had some proper forum software we could just put each other on ignore, but I think we'd both find that boring 🙂 Yes I would agree the other 76 seats would mostly be Tory - 44/76 is almost 2:1 of course. Good news is UKIP cost Ed Balls his seat.
Sensible statement from Cameron after the meeting today. I am quite happy for Cameron to offer Scots some more powers as I am confident he will only do that if its beneficial for the rest of the UK and not least the English Votes for English laws. Implementing Smith first and then letting SNP see what they can do with it, plenty of opportunity to kick the can down the road with "lets wait and see, lets give it a reasonable amount of time to look at the impact ..." Then it will be approaching GE2020 and that will be the rationale to put it on hold till after.
[i]What we agreed was, first of all let’s implement Smith, let’s make sure it really is Smith. We are going to look again at welfare and make sure the clauses reflect what that agreement was.
But we haven’t yet implemented Calman, let alone implemented Smith. We haven’t yet got the tax powers that come in in April 2016, so I think let’s implement that so people can see the massive power on taxation and spending that the Scottish Parliament will have.
If the First Minister wants to send some proposals for me to look at I am very happy to examine proposals. There is going to be a debate, of course there will be a debate. I don't rule out making other changes if sensible suggestions are made.”[/i]
EDIT: Cameron. Full fiscal autonomy means the end of Barnet formula and the wealth transfer to Scotland - makes sense to me.
[i]I think the option of full fiscal autonomy is not a good option for Scotland inside the United Kingdom. I think it would land Scottish taxpayers with £7 billion of extra taxes and Scottish taxpayers with £7 billion of extra costs. I believe in the solidarity that is at the heart of our United Kingdom, so it is an honest disagreement between the First Minister and me about this. We will deliver a stronger Scottish Parliament, be in no doubt about.[/i]
What was the moment they transformed from the Tartan Tories into a left wing party?
Probably the moment the Labour Party lurched to the right and started to ape the Tories. The SNP didn't have to do anything really.
.
What a nice fellow you are
I think you'll find scotroutes that konabunny was taking the piss. IIRC knonabuny is part-Scottish.
I think there was suppose to be some sort of joke there, too subtle for my simple brain to fully understand, along the lines of "have you stopped beating up your wife - just answer yes or no"
bearGrease - Member
Six Prime Minister represented Scottish Constituencies Whilst Prime Minister:
William Gladstone
Henry Campbell Bannerman
Herbert Henry Asquith
Andrew Bonar Law
Sir Alec Douglas-Home
And of course Gordon Brown
Other PMs have been born in Scotland including Tony Blair.
Your question reveals more about the chip on your shoulder than your knowledge of history.
And not one of them would have got into that position if they were independence advocates. You don't get to be PM of the UK by advocating its breakup, although some were keen on Irish Home Rule.
What chip? The democracy one? I just believe that self determination would work better for Scotland.
ernie_lynch - Member
....IIRC knonabuny is part-Scottish.
Jim Murphy is Scottish too.
Unfortunately... 🙂
epicyclo - MemberWhat chip? The democracy one? I just believe that self determination would work better for Scotland.
The overloads patter isn't a good look.
epicyclo - Member
What chip? The democracy one?
No, the other one. As Joseph pointed out accusing those South of the border to be wholly responsible for the problems of Scotland makes you look like a shining wit (as per Spooner).
bearGrease - Member
epicyclo - Member
What chip? The democracy one?
No, the other one. As Joseph pointed out accusing those South of the border to be wholly responsible for the problems of Scotland makes you look like a shining wit (as per Spooner).
Where did I do that?
A UK govt has to have policies that suits the majority of its electorate. That leads to the needs of minorities being ignored or placed to one side.
In the case of Scotland independence (or home rule) removes that problem for us.
Hopefully my home boy DC tells jimmy crankie to get back to hobbiton and doesn't allow her any more power than was outlined in Devo max, that and anything the SNP want to discuss in Westminster is immediately shut down! It's about time these racists stopped having any influence over the UK!
is Scotland minority free? 😆epicyclo - Member
In the case of Scotland independence (or home rule) removes that problem for us.
Where did I do that?
Three times on the last page:
I wonder what characteristic of Scots our overlords have identified that makes us unable to handle independence? What racial inferiority do we possess?
and
So I'll repeat the question:what characteristic of Scots our overlords have identified that makes us unable to handle independence? What racial inferiority do we possess?
then
I just wondered if our wise and kind overlords were saving us from ourselves and were being too polite to tell us the real reason
We'd established that you're a shining wit and now you've confirmed you're a self delusional shining wit.
bearGrease - Member
We'd established that you're a shining wit and now you've confirmed you're a self delusional shining wit.
Unionist, eh?
I see that my post has been deleted, which I assume means it wasn't quite the brilliant piece of writing I thought it was. I apologise to all.
The point I was (evidently poorly) making was that the question "what kind of racial inferiority is it that means Scots are unable to handle independence?" is like the question "when did you stop beating your wife?" - answering either of them means accepting their entirely false premise. (The second question is well known as an example of this rhetorical device).
What was the moment they transformed from the Tartan Tories into a left wing party?
Good grief, they haven't been Tartan Tories for more than a generation, back when Labour were a left wing party.
Hmm. The thing is, with the Labour Party you can very clearly pinpoint the moment at which it shifted from being a moderate left wing party to being a centrist party: the rise of Blair (with Smith paving the way), the abolition of Clause 4 and the launch of the New Labour project. When was that moment for the SNP? My impression is that that moment never occurred for the SNP because they have never shifted to the left.
It's striking that none of the people claiming the SNP is a left wing party are able to:
- identify distinctively left wing policies
- identify when the SNP has described itself as left wing
- reconcile the left wing nature of the SNP with its close relationship with Souter, Gloag and Murdoch
- explain why it is that the English and Welsh electorate should have lurched to the right and voted for a right wing government, but the Scottish electorate should have lurched to the left and voted for a left wing party. It's unprecedented for the Scotch to vote in a radically different way from the English when you compare the social profile of the constituencies involved
- resist claiming that the SNP's critics are Unionist/Tory stooges...
epicyclo - Member
Unionist, eh?
Einstein, eh?
Your powers of deduction are as remarkable as your predilection for blaming the country's ills on mythical "overlords".
Hopefully my home boy DC tells jimmy crankie to get back to hobbiton and doesn't allow her any more power than was outlined in Devo max, that and anything the SNP want to discuss in Westminster is immediately shut down! It's about time these racists stopped having any influence over the UK!
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A fully trained weapons grade idiot at that.
bearGrease - Member
epicyclo - Member
Unionist, eh?Einstein, eh?
Your powers of deduction are as remarkable as your predilection for blaming the country's ills on mythical "overlords".
I would define an overlord as an unelected person in power, so they are hardly mythical.
If you could reduce them to mythical status I would honour your name forever, although I am not sure to what vile purpose you would grease a bear, but in the meantime, seeing as you have a predilection for trading insults and I have not yet given one in return:
May the bowels of one thousand flying camels empty upon your head and bring peace to your troubled soul.
Konabunny I don't think anyone is claiming the SNP is a socialist party, it certainly originally set out to be a home for everyone in favour of independence, but has over a period of about 50 years since publication of a booklet "SNP and You" in the 60s shifted leftwards and is imo a social democratic party. You can check the snp entry on wiki.
I also don't think the Scottish people have
but Labour including SLAB lurched to the right.lurched to the left
A fully trained weapons grade idiot at that.
I was just assuming he was a blatantly obvious troll.
Either that, or he really is a gangster and David Cameron is his homeboy, whatever that means.
gordimhor - spot on. My politics haven't changed at all, it's the Labour party that's shifted to the right and the SNP have taken their place.
All this left-right distinction - I really can't be bothered working out where on some linear scale each party's policies put it. I don't want Trident. I want free University education and no commercial involvement in the NHS. I don't like the demonisation of immigrants and asylum seekers. If that makes me left-wing then fine, it also means I agree with the SNP and not Labour.
I don't want Trident. I want free University education and no commercial involvement in the NHS. I don't like the demonisation of immigrants and asylum seekers.
Don't you think that makes you, Ann Gloag, Brian Souter and Rupert Murdoch strange bedfellows*, then?
* Brian Souter would not approve of this term.
Don't you think that makes you, Ann Gloag, Brian Souter and Rupert Murdoch strange bedfellows*, then?
I'm a vegetarian. Hitler was a vegetarian. Therefore I have a lot on common with Hitler.
That's a pretty poor analogy (and a deliberately bad one designed so you can avoid answering the question, I think).
Don't you think that makes you, Ann Gloag, Brian Souter and Rupert Murdoch strange bedfellows*, then?
I have no idea of the reasons that any of those three have for claiming, or otherwise, to support the SNP. I am also unconcerned by it as it does not change my reasons for being a member of the SNP. I joined because I like their policies, not because of their fans. They are social democrats - that's a good place from which to do politics in my view.
If SNP can establish branches in the south then I think Labour will be insignificant as opposition party for a long long time. SNP can easily replace Labour as opposition party if they get it right.
Freeedddooommm! 😆
bencooper
I don't want Trident
The alternative is? Given the current level of Russian military activities who is going to defend us and with what if we are to gain Devo? Then there is the devastation to jobs out with the area, housing etc???
more free Uni places
Why? I would rather see more apprenticeship schemes 💡
The alternative is? Given the current level of Russian military activities who is going to defend us and with what if we are to gain Devo?
The alternative is having good international relations and not going to war. Seems to work for many other small countries in the world.
wanmankylung - Member
The alternative is? Given the current level of Russian military activities who is going to defend us and with what if we are to gain Devo?
The alternative is having good international relations and not going to war. Seems to work for many other small countries in the world.
The horse has surely bolted on that one given we are currently part of the UK 💡
The way the "enemy " thinks" nowadays there will be no distinction or recognition of Borders
The horse has surely bolted on that one given we are currently part of the UK
Well leaving the UK can go some way to improving international relationssurely, no?
There's plenty recognition of borders or differences in culture and approach. Scotland will do fine and dandy.
There's plenty recognition of borders or differences in culture and approach. Scotland will do fine and dandy.
So if ISIL or whoever reach Hadrians wall or see the Welcome to Scotland signs the will stop and say "whoaha the Scots support us let's turn around"......Yeah, right!!
Putin seems to be another who recognises Borders 💡
When the first Russian warship or sub sails up and docks in Leith or the Clyde what will be the reaction?
Are we going to allow the current level of Russian aircraft activity to fly over our lands without intervention given our proximity to the rUK?
If ISIL reach Hadrian's wall there's something gone wrong and your point is moot because they've already defeated rUK.
When the first Russian warship sails to a Scottish port the response will be "lets get pissed" and see who can handle their drink the most. US warships would be welcome by some, so why not Russians or Chinese?
Current level of Russian aircraft activity flying over any part of these islands is a big fat zero, so yes the current level of activity will be allowed to continue.
So if ISIL or whoever reach Hadrians wall or see the Welcome to Scotland signs the will stop and say "whoaha the Scots support us let's turn around"......Yeah, right!!
Putin seems to be another who recognises Borders
When the first Russian warship or sub sails up and docks in Leith or the Clyde what will be the reaction?
Are we going to allow the current level of Russian aircraft activity to fly over our lands without intervention given our proximity to the rUK?
Russians at our borders? What the hell have you been smoking john?.
In answer to the OP's question, I voted for the Scottish national party as I agree with more of their policies than all of the other parties put together.
Never understood people who are lifelong voters of one party, blind faith is bizarre.
Nobeerinthefridge - Member
Russians at our borders? What the hell have you been smoking john?...
I wonder why Scotland will be invaded by the Russians when they have neglected nearly 100 years of opportunities to invade Ireland.
I think some people have been reading way too much Tom Clancy...
Yes Scotland likes to bring up examples of Russia encroaching on UK airspace in Scotland to show that we are not well enough protected against Russia whilst being a part of the UK. Make your effing mind up. I do agree though that Putin probably would not invade Scotland as Salmond has admiration for him.
Funny that your apparently tolerant stance is at odds with Russia's often homophobic, racist outlook. In reality it is difficult to do business on the global stage and not get your hands dirty.
And your point is?
Murphy gone! The greatest advert for the SNP since some grocers wean.
And your point is?
Come on Nobeer, you are surely cleverer than this?
It's possible to, at the same time, think that Russia aren't going to invade Scotland and also think that the UK's priorities in therms of defence are very skewed. That was Yes Scotland's point about the Russians - they're really not going to invade us (we've got nothing they want, and they're not that stupid), but we should have some kind of patrol vessels and aircraft, instead of relying on a fisherman tweeting the MoD.
And why does Russian politics have anything at all to do with this?
Russian politics is not important to you, as Scotland will be a small country you can happily bury your head in the sand. An independent Scotland will have to deal with these countries on an international stage. That is when your principles will go out the window to avoid hassle from a larger country.
Hassle? Is Ireland being hassled by Russia? Is Denmark? Malta? New Zealand?
Russian politics is important to me in that I care about human rights - I don't think it's relevant to the discussion about Scottish independence.
Edit
Oh, if only we could ignore the result - we'd be free of the Tories.
I don't mean hassle from Russia, rather hassle from your own conscience. Just saw an interesting but surely biased exposee(BBC) regarding Russian homophobia. Don't know how it played put in Ireland?
I just don't wish to see a country throw out it's beliefs because it is wee. You may wish that though!!
So, let me get this straight, Scotland being independent is bad because Russia has some fairly nasty political stuff going on?
I suppose that means Greenland is bad because Robert Mugabe is a dick and El Salvador can't be trusted due the ongoing situation in North Korea.
This is certainly the most interesting argument I've heard yet.
