As an aside - in Jerusalem last year all the tourist t-shirt shops were selling IDF t-shirts, with the writing in English and Hebrew. I was very tempted to buy one and wear it around work, just to see what made-up reason somebody would come up with for why I couldn't wear it.
(I decided against it as a general policy rule about not offending people on purpose, no matter how much I think they have no cogent reason to be offended. I fear I am only JUST getting away with my St Pauli hoodie - due to their association with Celtic Football Club)
Its a lefty quandary !
Israeli foreign 'policy' is pretty abhorrent IMO. Admittedly I can fully understand how it's ended up where it has given the holocaust and the lasting effect that's had on many
Israel seems to be taking its Jewish-historical experiences out on the people of Palestine. I can only understand it in the same way I understand how somebody who is abused goes on to be an abuser themselves. As it is, the State of Israel appears to have learned absolutely nothing positive (in terms of diplomacy) from the deaths of their ancestors. Instead, they starve Palestinians, deny them water and electricity, take their land by force, bomb residential targets with white phosphorus and shoot children for fun. They've had their head in the sand for decades and, rather than develop into a peaceful people, have grown into a violent, frightened organisation with a victim complex.
Three_FishIsrael seems to be taking its Jewish-historical experiences out on the people of Palestine. I can only understand it in the same way I understand how somebody who is abused goes on to be an abuser themselves. As it is, the State of Israel appears to have learned absolutely nothing positive (in terms of diplomacy) from the deaths of their ancestors. Instead, they starve Palestinians, deny them water and electricity, take their land by force, bomb residential targets with white phosphorus and shoot children for fun. They've had their head in the sand for decades and, rather than develop into a peaceful people, have grown into a violent, frightened organisation with a victim complex.
Well said.
Too many people on here have a simplistic idea of victims vs victimizers.
Israel's response has gone over the top, sure, but the idea that the Palestinians are a peaceful people is equally laughable.
The political left is obsessed on this issue, even though most people in the UK have no direct experience of living in the middle-east. It is shifting British Jews to the right, making them more concerned about further immigration from Muslim countries, which I think is a long overdue move.
So I say I don't like something that a Christian group published or said I am now anti-Christian?
This thread is going nowhere, Exit Badnewz (pursued by a Zionist Bear).
badnewz - MemberToo many people on here have a [b]simplistic idea[/b] of victims vs victimizers.
Israel's response has gone over the top, sure, but the idea that the Palestinians are a peaceful people is equally laughable.
The political left is obsessed on this issue, even though most people in the UK have no direct experience of living in the middle-east. It is shifting British Jews to the right, making them more concerned about further immigration from Muslim countries, which I think is a long overdue move.
Oh teh ironing.
I was going to suggest that, I don't think most British folk are naturally anti semitic, certainly not since WW2 and the holocaust, but the way Israel acted in Gaza certainly provoked anti Israeli feeling, in fact the pathetic education of some kids is such they don't even know the two things go hand in hand, i.e. Jews live in Israel.
So being anti Israeli is not to my mind as anti semitic as the anti jewish immigrant period of say the late thirties and immediate post war period in some London regions.
Not withstanding of course the natural anti semitism that is prolific amongst our more radical islamic friends. I'm not sure why this suddenly is in the news, my twitter & Facebook feeds are full of it and an Obama Iran conspiracy (made the mistake of 'liking' Melanie Phillips with whom I'd had previous correspondence on a totally different subject, but she's in full cry supporting Israel at the moment.
I've spent time in Israel made friends know their sense of isolation and constant war and terrorist threat which has pretty much been going on since the countries inception, so it's difficult to be overly critical of their actions, but I do fear they are not really helping themselves in the current climate.
There are plenty of Israelis critical of their country's actions.
I recommend 'The Gatekeepers' documentary where six former heads of Shin Bet (the Israeli secret service) talk about the mistakes they feel have led the country to where it is now.
Mel Phillips seems to get more rabid in her zionism every day. I've stayed away from her site for a while but used to have some good debates on there, until she (or whoever was in charge of the site) started deleting any contrary views.
[url= http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/As-I-See-It-The-Obama-doctrine-says-Israels-enemy-is-my-friend-390215 ]Found it, it was on my phone on the way to work this morning...[/url]
I have spent a fair bit of time in Israel as my wife is from there. As Lifer has already stated plenty of Israelis are dismayed by some of the actions that have been carried out in their name and of Netanyahu's reckless disregard for Palestinian lives.
That said I also feel that the actions of others towards Israel is often glossed over. I was in Israel during the conflict in 2014. Staying in a city that was within range of Hamas rockets meant that when a siren went off I had to grab my 11 month year old daughter and run down the stairs whilst hearing the rockets being exploded over our heads. I'm not drawing any comparison between what I experienced and what was carried out in Gaza. But the fact that Israel has the capability to deal with most of these rockets does not detract from what they have been designed to do - kill as many Israelis as possible.
As Lifer has already stated plenty of Israelis are dismayed by some of the actions that have been carried out in their name and of Netanyahu's reckless disregard for Palestinian lives.
That said I also feel that the actions of others towards Israel is often glossed over.
Tell me, why do you think they are lobbing rockets at Israel?
dereknightrider - MemberFound it, it was on my phone on the way to work this morning...
Classic Mel. By which I mean horribly skewed by her hatred of Obama.
Since the election of Barack Obama, Phillips has accused him of "adopting the agenda of the Islamist" and of being "firmly in the Islamists camp".[40] Shortly after Obama's re-election for a second term, Phillips said that [b]"Four years ago, America put into the White House a sulky narcissist with an unbroken history of involvement in thuggish, corrupt, far-left, black power, Jew-bashing, west-hating politics."[/b] She warned that Obama would lead America into a "terrifying darkness". The Independent termed it "rather odd" and an "angry rant",[41] which "sparked debate on Twitter.
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanie_Phillips#Barack_Obama ]Phillips on Obama[/url]
Woh! Just a tad to the right of centre, she wouldn't last long here would she? I'd better explain, I only got involved with her over some fear of swimming piece she wrote... Can't say I share many of her views.. 😆
Bigot of the year award from Stonewall - classic.
El-bent if you think Hamas only ever fire missiles in retaliation you need to read more.
El-bent if you think Hamas only ever fire missiles in retaliation you need to read more.
Since you already know what I'm getting at, perhaps I should just ask a straight question.
When did all this start, and why?
I find it [b]very[/b] confusing to understand the motive as to why the media and people in general focus on Israel but seem to have forgotten the in-excess of [b]half a million[/b] civilians killed by our armed forces in Iraq.
The main confusing thing here is that, not a single British or American civilian had been killed by an Iraqi.
War is not a simple thing and innocent people will always be killed but the fact of the matter is that Palestinians had killed Israelis, had voted into power a terrorist group and were mixing civilian areas with military targets.
If Wales were firing rockets at England I can guarantee you that no one would be arguing at military action.
^^^ if we were doing to wales what Israel is doing to Palestine plenty would be both arguing, manning barricades and be utterly ashamed to live in a country like that . Not in my name would we treat a people like that whose land we have stolen and whose people. Its a recipe for resentment
PS nice attempt at a diversion but we are discussing ISrael start a new thread on the unrelated issues [ please dont "explain" why it matters and its the same as I get the distraction thing]
When did all this start, and why?
Was it when Israel stole the land or the time after they stole the land when they stole some more or the time after the time after they stole some land where they stole some more land or perhaps etc
It is not correct to say that all the land was 'stolen'. Israel is not innocent but the Palestinians are not either.
There is alot of talking on the subject but little action. How many people who argue strongly on this subject have even been to the area and seen for themselves?
The media feed a very biased story.
PS nice attempt at a diversion but we are discussing ISrael start a new thread on the unrelated issues [ please dont "explain" why it matters and its the same as I get the distraction thing]
Focusing on one conflict but tactfully forgetting our own far worse recent crimes is part of the reason that it [i]can[/i] be seen as anti-Semitic.
EDIT :AH the anti -semitic tag
Yes that its If i wont be distracted and discuss something else I must be a racist 🙄 ..FFS
You do know the Palestinians are Semites dont you?
I think the best we could do is debate how illegitimate Israel is tbh
I dont think the worlds Jews would let the Arabs do this to them what they did to Palestine and if they did they would fight back and still be fighting back generations later....al nations would.
The media feed a very biased story.
Yes its very pro Israel but not enough for the ardent Zionists who will defend Israel right to exist and not comment on its MO that it uses to achieve it.
How come the media seem to forget that Egypt block their boarder access for supplies to the Palestinians too? Where is the public outcry about that?
The truth is that the Arab world in general also don't want to help them either.
Again more reasons why focusing on Israel as the bad guy [i]can[/i] be seen as anti-Semitic.
[i]You do know the Palestinians are Semites dont you?[/i]
Yes I am aware of this but as has been pointed out by others in this thread, in this country it is usually understood to be anti-jew.
This thread is not about who is right or wrong but why being anti-Isreal can be seen as anti-Semitic.
As I pointed out on page one, if you're unable to win the argument throw in the anti-semitic charge. Being ant-Zionist is not anti-semitic, it's the boy crying WOLF and the rest of the world will eventually ignore the cry.
Or, it's like people shouting "you don't support our troops" if you criticise the war.
I'm not saying if you criticize Israel you are automatically anti-Semitic but as a group if large numbers of people are focusing on the Israel and don't criticize other equally or worse issues then it can appear that way or you have been whipped into a emotional frenzy by the biased media coverage.
People single out Israel for criticism because they claim to share our values. If they want to admit that they're a bunch of murderous thugs like most of their neighbours, well, hey ho, I guess we can change the way we view them.
Or, it's like people shouting "you don't support our troops" if you criticise the war.
You are jambalaya and I claim my £ 5
You cannot even address the issue directly you can only call folk anti semitic and try and talk about our troops
Being anti - zionist is seen as being anti semitic as the pro Israel lobby know their argument is so weak they just hurl it as an insult [ with the odd change of subject attempt of course] rather than defend what Israel does as even they know what it does is indefensible. Basically they would rather talk about anything [ media, our troops] but the actual issue as you so "skilfully" demonstrate.
if they get more grief [ and I dont think they do] it is for the reason DrJ mentions. they want to be Western and they make Putin look good.
but as a group if large numbers of people are focusing on the Israel and don't criticize other equally or worse issues then it can appear that way or you have been whipped into a emotional frenzy by the biased media coverage.
If people want to focus on the issue of the State of Israel's war crimes against the people of Palestine, then let them do that. It sounds more like you want to move discussion away from that. There are countless subjects which affect many people more personally, for example, but the level and type of aggression from the SofI is, in many people's view, entirely pertinent in geo-political conversation. If our (whoever we are) Governments support or oppose this behaviour, then it certainly makes it relevant to our own political choices, activism and voting.
This was heading to be one of the most balanced and respectful threads I have read in here.
There is a lot of cases where any criticism of Israel or Jewish people is rebuked with an Anti Semitic label, the more people do that the harder the real conversations become. It really doesn't matter who or why or where the last rocket/missile/air strike came from if you can't discuss the real issues without being labelled a racist there is a deeper problem.
While we should also never forget what happened 70 years ago people also need to learn and move on from it.
One of the main problems seems to be the indoctrination by the state education system of Israeli youth into military culture:
(The whole clip is worth watching, but I've made is easy by starting at the relevant point)
Given the [url= https://fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf ]vast amount of military aid[/url] supplied by the USA (even when their own government was shutdown in 2013 over financial issues and Detroit and other towns are having their water supplies cut off) it's almost as if they are attempting to create a nation of trained soldiers, in preparation for expanding their territory in the area.
Religious nutters alert!!
Funnily enough, Blair, Bush and even Rupert Murdoch are all Papal Knights of Malta, like Jimmy Savile
Sooo... a little research suggests that [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_Malta_%28disambiguation%29 ]Knights of Malta[/url] are also a high level degree on the [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York_Rite ]York Rite[/url] of Freemasonry:
[img] 
[/img]
Freemasonry is said to be based on the [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar ]Knights Templar[/url], who had their headquarters in Jerusalem in the [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon%27s_Temple#Freemasonry ]Temple of Solomon[/url], on [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount ]Temple Mount[/url]
Some say that that one of the aims of Freemasonry is to destroy the [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry#Islam_and_Freemasonry ]Al-Aqsa Mosque in order to rebuild the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem[/url]
Does that mean that Freemasons are also Zionists?
[b]it's almost as if[/b] they are attempting
a little research [b]suggests[/b]...
Freemasonry [b]is said to be[/b] based...
[b]Some say that[/b] that one of the aims...
[b]Does that mean[/b] that...
Same old, same old.
🙄
Some say that conspiracy theorists have serious mental and or emotional issues.
A little research suggests that might not be far from the truth and that conspiracy theorism is based on an inverted inferiority complex and feelings of powerlessness and the resulting need to appear superior or more knowledgeable than others.
It is said that conspiracy theorists actually have less empathy for their fellow man than others and don't really care about 'the plight' of those suffering but more about how they will be perceived.
Does that mean that conspiracy theorists are all bad? Some say that it does.
No conspiracy theory there... just discussion of some facts that are not generally aired
If you want same OLD same OLD, there's the conspiracy theory offered by the Bible, or the Talmud, or the Quran.
Or a bit more up to date, you could include the Big Bang and amino acids being the basis of life...
I'm trying to open up the discussion~ unless of course you have an interest in closing the discussion...
Yes, that's right. As I said above, a little way back, I have Jewish ancestry (and Catholic too) so I'm obviously part of the big plot.
Oh and could you point out the facts/evidence. I seem to have missed them.
Apollo's bow you're dull, JHJ.
Not being funny but where's the point at which wilfully derailing threads to your own personal topic of choice stops being acceptable on here?
Also,
hels - MemberI decided against it as a general policy rule about not offending people on purpose
This policy of yours, it must be new? 😆
Oh and could you point out the facts/evidence. I seem to have missed them.
What is it you want the facts/evidence for?
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism ]
Christian Zionism[/url]?
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry ]Freemasonry[/url]?
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible ]The Bible[/url]?
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud ]The Talmud[/url]?
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran ]The Quran[/url]?
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang ]The Big Bang[/url]?
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry ]Amino Acids as the basis of life[/url]?
Or [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_States_military_relations#Foreign_military_financing ]vast military funding of Israel[/url] and the subjugation of Palestinians
[img] 
[/img]
[img] 
[/img]
Well, at least I'm not being labelled anti-semitic
😉
[url= http://paxonbothhouses.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/40-maps-that-explain-middle-east.html ]Interesting take on the entire region by map[/url]
Worth a read that, just to take in all the upheavals that have taken place in the region and note Israels expansion within Palestine. Whichever way you look at it the Palestinians have been dealt a bad hand, and this has been further exacerbated since the Arab spring with the internecine war within Islam, which under the old divide and rule maxime further strengthens Israels hand.
Israel who have a security agency, the Mossad, that make the CIA look like kindergarten kids when it comes to dirty tricks and I wouldn't bet against having stirred up the whole nest in Syria.
A pity it's come back to bite them in the bum with Iran on the ascendant now.
Whatever it's a mess and nothing good is going to continue to come from it for a long while yet.
@jive, Israel has national service in order to protect itself. Right from the formation of Israel when it was immediately invaded by Egypt, Jordan and Syria they have needed to defend themselves. Gaza was in Egypt and Jordan fought for the West Bank which they claimed was their territory, not a mention of any Palestinian rights to the land. The Israelis have signed numerous peace agreements, withdrawn unilaterally from Gaza in 2005 expelling Jewish settlers but Hamas do not want a negotiated settlement or a two state solution their written constitutional objective is the absolute destruction of Israel.
Why don't you post up some photos of the wall the Egyptians have on their border with Gaza and the 1000 meter zone they have cleared demolishing houses to prevent terrorist smuggling of weapons both into Gaza and into Egypt to attack them. Or the wall the Saudis are building to keep out ISIS, $400m they are spending on it complete with high tech surveillance. The walls have reduced terrorist attacks significantly, particularly suicide bombers, they are now virtually unheard of in Israel. The walls in the West Bank where built after the suicide bombers started their attacks.
Most of us here I think understand the difference between anti-semitism and being against the Israeli government policies. I certainly don't see everyone criticising Israel as being anti-semitic. However, very many people do not care to make that distinction and they incite general anti-Jewish behaviour under the cover of what they see as the injustice of the Palestinians. Far more Muslims have died at the hands of other Muslims in recent conflicts than have done so at the hands of the Israelis.
JY I am pro-Israel and I feel no need to through any anti-Semitic labels at to those who citisise Israel as my arguments and rational and rock solid.
I think that there's a link between anti Zionism and anti-Semitism, I'm afraid. I can't see any other explanation for the bile that's often directed towards Israel. As Jambalaya says above, hardly anyone seems to criticise Arabs for killing each other in huge numbers. The Arabs are very fond of using the 'fellow muslims' and 'fellow arabs' cards when it suits, though.
@derek - those maps are often used to "explain" how Israel has encroached onto Palestinian lands but in fact most of the redrawing of the borders has come about after Israel has come under attacks from Jordan, Syria and Egypt, with the Israelis coming out victorious and creating buffer zones which have subsequently been retained after treaties where signed. As I posted above Gaza and West Bank where seen by Egypt and Jordan as belonging to them, no mention of Palestine.
It is also interesting that there are quoted as being 5 million Palestinian refugees as in 1948 only 700,000 where displaced. There seems to have been a lot of inflation and/or population growth.
You are quite right about Mossad being very very good at what they do. It thus makes no sense for them to support and environment which allows Islamic jihadism to flourish, its a very complicated region though so none of us can really be sure. The Israelis have peace agreements with Jordan and Egypt which have held for many years, they would like to see democracies on their borders and their neighbours developing their economies as this means people have less rational to fight. Assad has supported action against Israel and has supplied and funded Hamas so Israel will not be sad to see him distracted. Its also ironic that Assad was one of the few supporters Hamas had and yet they joined the fight against him and many 1000's of Palestinians have died in Aleppo as a result of Syrian government action. Iran's not in the ascendancy, Israel remains rightly concerned about them having a nuclear weapon as is the US and the West in general.
This series "War Next Door" is very good from the excellent vicenews. this piece tells how Israeli hospitals are treating SYrian fighters, it makes sense they are trying to win favour particularly with those who live near the border.
Is that the same Vice news that has James Murdoch (son of Rupert Murdoch and equally balls deep in the media game) on the board of directors?
