what if it is some sort of conspiracy
To make us all wear a mask? Don't get me wrong, I love a good conspiracy, but it's hardly faking landing on a moon or assassinating heads of state, is it? The Americans have got QAnon which seem to have decided that the Democrats are literally Satan worshipping baby eaters... and we've got; wear a mask...I mean I know we generally end up with a shit version of what's going on in the States, but this is a new low. It's embarrassing
If you find yourself disagreeing with the advice from people who have spent years being educated in, trained in, gaining experience in, and it being their literal job to be expert in, a particular field* then the first question you must ALWAYS ask yourself is:
Am I a genius or am I wrong?
The chances of it being the former are always slimmer than the latter.....
*especially so when that field is not your area of expertise.
If we all adopted that approach the STW servers would be a lot smaller.....
what if it is some sort of conspiracy… i mean, there is always a chance right?
No.
Conspiracy theories have (very) occasionally turned out to be fact, but they don't tend to involve the entire world and as Binners says, what would be the point?
If you think it's some sort of population control then you haven't paying attention for the last five years. We're already under control, that ship sailed a long time ago I'm afraid.
I don't like wearing one. But I do, to help keep COVID down. It's that simple.
The Americans have got QAnon which seem to have decided that the Democrats are literally Satan worshipping baby eaters…
Anyone else amazed at the times we live in when even the biggest pedants on stw cannot now say, "that's not the correct use of the word, literally" in a sentence containing that content?
I mean, wtaf!😁
Just because I love prodding the narrow minded here. I thought about this today and took notice. Those wearing a mask were the obviously better off and going by their speech better educated. Srtacks of masks worn in Waitrose but few in Lidls. We all know that to a great extent we can jusge someones back ground and beliefs by their appearance ( Well according to the loony lefties here!) Well I would bet that the middle classes that I saw were the ones toeing the line and it was those you would judge to be from the working class who were not. OOOh I can't wait for it. Bit like the way people react when I point out that the discrimination, racism etc in our society is usually the so called working clas. Bring it on!
As to why any one doesn't wear as mask.Sheer bloody selfishness and stuff any form of social justification.
Marina Hyde seems to have had enough of anti-mask bullshit.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/30/anti-mask-blitz-war-public-good
Sums up my thoughts entirely.
If you think it’s some sort of population control then you haven’t paying attention for the last five years.
If you think wearing a mask is some sort of population control then you haven't been paying attention in biology class either
they got passed over for Strictly and that thing in the castle spotted
"I'm a celebrity, trebuchet me out of here" ?
the biggest pedants on stw cannot now say, “that’s not the correct use of the word, literally”
Seems like correct usage to me?
^^ That's the point Cougar. It's insane that some people literally believe the Dems are satanic worshipping baby eaters.😁
Just because you don’t see the need, doesn’t mean it’s not there. You’ve got scientists testing this stuff all the time, and they are lining up to tell you to wear one.
I can’t stress this enough: YOU NEED TO LISTEN TO THE PEOPLE WHO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT.
Can you point me towards evidence that wearing face coverings in a retail setting reduces covid transmission? Or even that covid transmission is prevalent in retail? Our government doesn't think it is "Shopping has consistently been one of the most commonly reported exposures among cases;
however, four case-control studies have not shown any indication that shopping is associated
with increased odds of becoming a COVID-19 case. (high confidence)
"
Appropriate PPE has it's place as long as there is evidence to back up it's usage. Face coverings aren't PPE and the evidence doesn't support mandating their usage in retail environments. I'm absolutely not anti-mask and using them in crowded public transport settings is likely at least slightly beneficial.
Ah, the “I’m alright so bollocks to everyone else” argument. I’ll remind you of that when my stroke-survivor and double kidney failure near-80 mother is dead because some **** thought it was an infringement on their civil liberties to be asked not to sneeze on her.
It’s a bit of cloth. Think it’s pointless if you like, but grow the hell up.
I'd consider it very rude to sneeze on her. However as someone at risk she should be free to make here own decisions on how much she can do to protect herself rather than relying on the very weak protection offered by other people wearing face coverings.
However as someone at risk she should be free to make here own decisions on how much she can do to protect herself rather than relying on the very weak protection offered by other people wearing face coverings.
I don't want to know you. That's as politely as I can put it.
Not sure about that. I’ve been steering clear of busy shops full of unmasked punters and buying stuff online more
Then that's what I mean it's lose lose as they've lost a customer.
on the very weak protection offered by other people wearing face coverings.
At least you appreciate there is some protection to others afforded by your choice that you will be effectively electing to withdraw if/when you find a bit of cloth too oppressive.
Marginal gains. Battles are won on marginal gains. But there is a reason some people are only good for the footsoldier role - they can't see or comprehend the bigger picture and their role in it. Elected not to spend half a lifetime of hard graft understanding the science of disease control - footsoldier role for you my friend. Trouble is some of the footsoldiers have taken to getting a bit stompy and have not appreciated their place in this is just to knuckle down and get on with it. The problem with stupid is that it doesn't know when it's being stupid. I know enough to know that I don't know enough to form my own opinion* and have had enough education to be able to make reasoned and intelligent choices as to whom I should trust to make up for my knowledge gaps. Stupid does not have that privilege and can't differentiate from actual scientific sources of repute and YouTube quackery. I am also blessed with patience to wait out the bad stuff doing the (remarkably easy to comply with) minor changes to my lifestyle because I've got a vague idea of what we are up against because I bother to listen and read reputable sources.
* having a sister that dwarfs me intellectually with a PhD in the immunology field that was elbows deep in all this when it first kicked off but is also about as anti Boris as can be in her opinions pretty much puts me in my place on having an actual opinion and also more than enough intel that 'the science' is not in Johnson's pocket and all made up. This shit is real.
At least you appreciate there is some protection to others afforded by your choice that you will be effectively electing to withdraw if/when you find a bit of cloth too oppressive.
The choices available to protect herself could entirely negate the risk posed by the difference in me wearing/not wearing a face covering in a shop. My decision doesn't need to matter to her at all. We all make choices that increase our personal risk, and/or risk to others. Not wearing face coverings in shops is insignificant.
Would anyone care to offer an opinion on why hospital admissions rose from around 100 a day in May to over 1000 a day in September and currently still around 750 a day?
Similarly patients in hospital rose from around 1000 to almost 10000 between May and November, and patients on mechanical ventilation from around 100 to 1000. Daily deaths were down to single figures in May and are currently around 100.
The choices available to protect herself could entirely negate the risk posed by the difference in me wearing/not wearing a face covering in a shop. My decision doesn’t need to matter to her at all. We all make choices that increase our personal risk, and/or risk to others. Not wearing face coverings in shops is insignificant.
Kelvin has it. No more needs saying. Even as a troll your typings reflect very poorly on you as a person.
Would anyone care to offer an opinion on why hospital admissions rose from around 100 a day in May to over 1000 a day in September and currently still around 750 a day?
Similarly patients in hospital rose from around 1000 to almost 10000 between May and November, and patients on mechanical ventilation from around 100 to 1000. Daily deaths were down to single figures in May and are currently around 100.
A complete relaxation on restrictions.
Grubs
The choices available to protect herself could entirely negate the risk posed by the difference in me wearing/not wearing a face covering in a shop.
A question, why not wear an ffp2 (or similar spec) mask, up your game as it were? Win, win surely. Improves protection for yourself and others around you to a far greater degree.
Not mandated by government but that's not relevant to this question as it's specific to you in this context.
A complete relaxation on restrictions.
Add to that a reliance towards vaccination (as most vulnerable had been vaccinated by that point) and early summer herd immunity for those less vulnerable.This backed up by a move back to mandatory masks and social distancing in as few places a possible, whilst trying to remain open for a solid economy during the winter months is a good thing.
Edit - just came back from Waitrose, noticed three people without masks, one elderly lady with a clear exemption lanyard, two guys, one who I know is very antivax/mask & pro conspiracy theory Dentist who's part of a collective of 'medical professionals' who keep getting in trouble on FB for posting misleading and complete BS about the pandemic.
Balls, that was a genuine typo with the "grubs" bit above. Couldn't be asked to copy/past then cut the other bit of the post and (mis)typed the name.
A complete relaxation on restrictions.
Yup exactly that plus post holiday season and more indoor mixing. Then there’s here’s the ones who are dying are the majority of being the unvaccinated.
However as someone at risk she should be free to make here own decisions on how much she can do to protect herself rather than relying on the very weak protection offered by other people wearing face coverings.
Excellent idea! What do you suggest instead?
A question, why not wear an ffp2 (or similar spec) mask, up your game as it were? Win, win surely. Improves protection for yourself and others around you to a far greater degree.
Not mandated by government but that’s not relevant to this question as it’s specific to you in this context.
I prefer mitigation rather than PPE. I'll do my best to avoid crowds of people other than where people are there by very definite choice. Shopping is generally easier online and I make my occasional trips to the supermarket early in the morning when it's quiet. I'm perfectly happy for others to wear ffp2 etc masks if they want to increase their own protection but I'm comfortable with the risk that covid posses to me to not bother. A covid booster vaccine appears to offer enough benefit and minimal inconvenience to be worthwhile, but I see no need to get a flu jab.
I’m comfortable with the risk that covid posses to me to not bother
Me, me, me.
Kelvin has it. No more needs saying. Even as a troll your typings reflect very poorly on you as a person.
It's not a troll. It's just a different opinion on the level of personal versus social responsibility.
I’m perfectly happy for others to wear ffp2 etc masks if they want to increase their own protection but I’m comfortable with the risk that covid posses to me to not bother.
Whoosh.
No, slowoldman, they understand, they just don’t care.
@Kelvin Have you locked yourself away and reduced all contact with others to ensure you don't possibly pass covid on? Or have you personally decided on a balance that give some protection to you (and your loved ones) but that allows you to have some contact? We have different opinions on that balance. I'm pretty sure I'll think that some of your life choices are selfish but that's normal.
Some people really just don't get it and by this point it's because they choose not to. All of these measures like vaccines, masks, hand-washing, social distancing etc - none are a panacea, but they all will on a population level reduce the amount of covid getting passed around. It's not really especially useful to think about it in terms of personal levels of risk acceptance re wearing/not wearing a mask or being vaccinated or not.
Less covid getting passed around is just a good thing.
We will probably have to learn to live with a certain amount of it but we aren't really yet at the point where we can really do that and still have respiratory departments in hospitals that aren't overwhelmed. There's already still way too many people dying of it IMO which we seem to have just accepted - let alone getting long covid or other complications etc.
Have you locked yourself away and reduced all contact with others to ensure you don’t possibly pass covid on
Guessing he's just done the stuff that's been recommended all along by public health professionals while trying to get on with life as much as possible - like most sensible/decent people.
It’s not a troll. It’s just a different opinion on the level of personal versus social responsibility.
No, you just appear to be a narcissist.
"Would anyone care to offer an opinion on why hospital admissions rose from around 100 a day in May to over 1000 a day in September and currently still around 750 a day?"
Freedom Day!
Boris coming on the telly and stating "we have beaten Covid"
The same belief among many on here?
Ok Gribs, I think that's all I was interested to know.
I'm all for mitigation, I've changed whole aspects of my life to keep away from people as far as practicable. However there are times it's unavoidable. The mask is simply a physical piece of mitigation, I no longer really think of it as "PPE".
I'm at a total loss to get my head around the logic you apply to everything else too? It seems more apathy based as much as anything.
I suspect we are a world apart on our thoughts on both personal and social responsibility, as they are not mutually exclusive.
I’m perfectly happy for others to wear ffp2 etc masks if they want to increase their own protection but I’m comfortable with the risk that covid posses to me to not bother.
All this time and people still think mask wearing is about them.
I normally go out meeting friends on a Monday night. Last night I stayed at home because I didn't want to risk passing on the miserable cold I have. Maybe I should have said "sod it it's only a cold, no-one will die".
I like my mask.
Best bit is that it has an activated charcoal layer which means i can't smell anything nasty or the ridiculous amount of perfume some wear.
Didn't realise how effective it was until i wore it in an uplift bus and briefly took it off, the bus stank.
Going to keep wearing mine for some time, it is such a little thing so i can't see any reason not to.
All these precious little people who can't tolerate a mask to help everyone, seriously i hope none of your get something badly wrong with you as you wonder how they would cope. Poor little snowflakes
rather than relying on the very weak protection offered by other people wearing face coverings.
I guess the next time you’re being operated on, you won’t mind if the surgery team don’t wear masks then.
It’s just a different opinion on the level of personal versus social responsibility.
I think the key in all this is 'opinion'.
By and large people form opinions very very easily - we all have opinions on pretty much anything and everything and what our opinion is on most things has little to do about what we know about that thing or have even how much we've thought about it. But no matter how easily we form opinions its human nature to then stick to them once we've formed them. People put more effort, energy and thought into holding onto and defending their opinion than anyone else can put into giving the information that might cause them to change there mind. First impressions last.
So from the thread title 'Anti mask anger - explain it to me' the explaination of the 'anti mask' is anything and everything anyone can grab hold of to retrospectively rationalise an opinion that they initially arrived at with very little thought at all. Most likely people either felt a bit silly wearing one or thought someone else looked a bit silly wearing one. But now - anything - anything you like- is the 'reason'. Theres a whole smorgasbord of 'reasons' out there. Someone can dress up a decision not to wear a mask any way they like and people can challenge those decisions anyway they like and nothing will really change someones mind...... they'll just, eventually, get angry.
The 'anger' in the question is that people who are asked to change their mind won't change their mind. But that doesn't stop people encouraging them to change their mind. They'll build ever more elaborated arguments but they won't change their mind. More to the point once you've built those arguments and expressed them in anger you can't back down.
Or have you personally decided on a balance that give some protection to you
Nope, that's not what masks are intended to do....
Ok Gribs, I think that’s all I was interested to know.
I'm not. I'm still waiting to hear what insights @Gribs has into how she can "make here own decisions on how much she can do to protect herself".
For the benefit of occasional viewers, that's my aging mother who is a stroke survivor and is at imminent risk of double kidney failure. My mum whose only social contact is the occasional phone call, a weekly trip to the shops, and regular doctor and hospital visits. My mum who's waiting for an operation right now and isn't well enough to have it. My mum for whom should she contract Covid it will almost certainly kill her.
What are you proposing she should do to "protect herself" whilst there's nuggets like you wandering around going "I don't see why I should wear a mask because I'm alright and I can't be bothered"? Should I lock the doors and then change the locks? Internet shopping is out, she's ~80 and her mobile phone is an old Nokia my dad bought and he's been infirm or dead for over ten years. Damn thing can't even receive MMSes. I'd do her shopping for her but she won't let me, she sees it as letting her various ailments win.
So come on, what've you got?
but I’m comfortable with the risk that covid posses to me to not bother.
Unqualified personal risk assessments in the middle of a national public health emergency are just what we need.....
As pointed out the measures are managing the numbers, the more you follow or exceed the advice the less Covid floats around which in winter with all the other seasonal infections is a good thing. The more people who do it the more it becomes the norm for behaviour and reinforces the numbers doing it which reduces the amount of Covid floating around.
I'm more than happy to follow the official advice and do my bit to help people like Cougar's mum
Marginal gains. Battles are won on marginal gains. But there is a reason some people are only good for the footsoldier role – they can’t see or comprehend the bigger picture and their role in it
Among the ocean of idiocy being spouted on this particular thread, this stands out as a little nugget of wisdom.
Population-level actions for anything require a slightly different way of thinking than some people are used to in their day-to-day lives. Mask wearing is one of those things. One could argue that the cost/benefit at a personal level are difficult to measure (and are obviously subject to what cost each person ascribes to wearing a mask in Asda), but at the population level, they aren't not.
If there was a decent way of measuring population-level mask wearing, we would see a difference between 50% "mask compliance" and "60% mask compliance" and that could be translated for people into "x vs Y new cases per week", "x vs Y new hospitalizations", and "x vs Y deaths". Those of us advocating for the increased/continued wearing of masks, are doing so because of this. If we all (or enough of us) do it, it will translate into significant population-level benefits. We understand and accept our role in the bigger picture, and balance that against the tiny inconvenience of wearing a mask when out-and-about.
The same can be said about vaccination. Yes, part of the reason to get vaccinated is purely selfish self-preservation. But another part of it is understanding that being vaccinated reduces the chances of being hospitalised. The more of us who avoid hospitalization, the better it is for the (significant) number of people who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons - and other users of the NHS who's outcomes will be poorer if the hospitals are swamped with covid patients who could have been vaccinated, but made the personal choice not to.
Unfortunately, some people are just not receptive to this way of thinking - they are more individualistic in how they think and behave, than collectivist.
However..... the reality is, whether you are individualist or collectivist in your thinking, the absolute reality is that we live TOGETHER in a society, and so it's necessary to think/act collectively for things like the environment, delivery of basic services, roads etc. Most people can rationalize paying taxes for those things I think? But wearing a mask at the shops to save x number of lives a week is too abstract for them, and they can only view it through the lens of their own personal benefit
I’m more than happy to follow the official advice and do my bit to help people like Cougar’s mum
Thank you.
I really don't get the objection beyond civil disobedience. In the grand scheme of things it is at worst a minor inconvenience. It might not be hugely effective at preventing you from transmitting CV2 but even if efficacy is 1% is that not worth it? It's an improvement on 0%. And a bit here and a bit there is cumulative.
