[Closed] Another good reason for Scotland to gain independence....

So Cameron and Nick the Shit impose a huge increase in tuition fees on English students and this is the Scottish government's fault how exactly?

Molgrips - its not discrimination in the sense of being unfair.

I still can't see why not.

There is an easy way to fix this; make HE free in England and Wales..

It would fix the issue, but it would not be easy!

For the record, I understand entirely why they would say this, and they are in a difficult position, but the unavoidable result is somewhat unfair.

Yup, and we have an agreement that Scots can go to other countries Uni's under the same deal.Seems like people jumping up and down because education is still sort of free up here.

Who's jumping up and down? Not me. I merely point out that with regard to fees at Scottish universities, the English, Welsh and Northern Irish are treated less favourably than the Irish, French, Spanish etc.

I've always argued that HE should be state funded, BTW.

Perhaps a better idea would be to keep the same fee structure as the rest of the UK but give all Scottish students a grant. Are you allowed to allocate grants based on geographical criteria?

Merely pointing out the nonsense spouted by the...English folk

You're English as well though, aren't you?

😉

richmtb - Member
So Cameron and Nick the Shit impose a huge increase in tuition fees on English students and this is the Scottish government's fault how exactly?

Funny that the Scottish government thinks its unfair ([i][b]In an ideal world, no students would pay fees. [/b]Our main priority has to be to protect opportunities for Scottish students[/i]), lawyers think it (may be) discriminatory and the courts are possibly still deciding. Its an anomaly resulting from legal definitions of states/nations etc and is frankly absurd.

But then given that the Scottish government has to rely on a block grant from Westminster to fund free education and to make cuts in other areas to fund the policy, I am sure that those people who choose not to go to Uni or who cannot afford to go (in Scotland and England) are happy about the fairness of all this.

teamhurtmore - Member
But then given that the Scottish government has to rely on a block grant from Westminster

Time for this again, I think;
[img] [/img]

😉

Does anyone have a wattage output reading yet? Surely we must be up to the level of at least one windfarm by now! 😉

Indeed druidh. I am sure your fellow Scottish constitutional experts will be able to explain how this is not at the very least "an anomaly".

Edited - pointless debating with THM.

Yo could even listen to the arguemnets presented.

Could you convince me why it's not an anomaly that English, Welsh and Northern Irish students are treated differently from the rest of the EU?

It is not unfair, The Scottish government does not think it unfair ( if that quote is not deliberately taken out of contest it shows your lack of understanding)

The Scottish government would say that, wouldn't they?

No one is testing it in the courts. Quite a few people threatened to do so but no one has as there is no grounds to do so and the Scottish government made sure it was legal before introducing it.

Please tell me you don't think that because something is legal, it must be fair?

teamhurtmore - Member
Indeed druidh. I am sure your fellow Scottish constitutional experts will be able to explain how this is not at the very least "an anomaly".

druidh - Member
And therein lies the real issue. If each "nation" had to raise all the taxes it spent, there would be fewer [b]claims[/b] of unfairness.

TandemJeremy - Member
Edited - pointless debating with THM.

Phew...and the sun is shining outside and its drying out. Three positive developments all at once!

[ps TJ that comment works best first time out. Loses impact when repeated 😉 but imitation is the sincerest form of flattery 😉 ]

Indeed again druidh it does (ie works both ways). Discrimination both ways?

I was thinking about retraining and doing another degree course and had thought about doing a degree in another European country.
The only thing stopping me is the quality of the courses, I've heard negative things about degree courses in some EU countries. Will this separation and closer ties to the EU mean a continued lower level of courses in Scotland?

It's no more discriminatory than any other government policy which varies from one country to another.

Perhaps not, but the Westminster funding makes it slightly awkward, no? Anyway its not the Scottish government that designed this - and they recognise that its not fair, but as you say they prioritise as they see fit.

THM - do yo actually believe that quote means what you say it does?

So now most folk have gone fromclaiming its illegal and discriminatory to[img] [/img]

TandemJeremy - Member
Edited - pointless debating with THM.

Yup. I know I will be called a black kettle 🙂 but given, for example, his gross distortion of that quote and repeating of this distortion as if it proves his point...............

😉 druidh, it was nice while it lasted. But the picture elevates the debate doesn't it 😉

Teamhurtmore - given your first post on this contains a gross distortion of a quote and several false premises ( in your usual style)? Followed by obvious snide dig in the next post? From previous experience of your "style" I know you will simply descend into insults and refuse to answer when this is pointed out to you hence its pointless. Its what yo always do

Anyway - you can claim the win if you want - I will not answer another post of yours.

I know you will simply descend into insults and refuse to answer when this is pointed out to you hence its pointless

Great, please keep your promise this time!

teamhurtmore - Member
Well this argument throws up lots of interesting perspectives including this (in the aftermath of Edin Uni's decision to increase (sorry double!!) its offers made to English students:

Graeme Kirkpatrick, the NUS’s Scottish deputy president, warned Edinburgh was “doing huge damage to its reputation” by offering more places to English school leavers. “There is simply no need for it to be so greedy and chase the students with the highest price tag, given the record levels of public investment being put into Scottish universities,” he said.
Not a hint of discrimination there??

A gross distortion - is this a bit like a where's willy game?

There are more ironies in the quote (probably unintentional) than any distortion from me.

So now most folk have gone fromclaiming its illegal and discriminatory to

It discriminates on whether or not you went to school in England or Wales, but not NI (thanks to the dual nationality loophole), or the rest of the EU. If Scotland was independent, it wouldn't apply to England or Wales either.

So, as per the thread title - another good reason for Scotland to become independent.

So, as per the thread title - another good reason for Scotland to become independent.

Or maybe just another good reason why you should carry on living on the other side of the world zokes .......since UK constitutional affairs seem to bother you so much 💡

Graeme Kirkpatrick, the NUS’s Scottish deputy president, warned Edinburgh was “doing huge damage to its reputation” by offering more places to English school leavers. “There is simply no need for it to be so greedy and chase the students with the highest price tag, given the record levels of public investment being put into Scottish universities,” he said.

He was, however, talking absolute[i] pish.[/i] The Scottish Government rations funding- if a Scottish university fills itself with Scottish students, they end up teaching a substantial amount of them for free as there are less funded places than there are taught places. Or alternatively we could run all our courses about 2/3ds full- either way, we run at a loss. (or, perhaps, cut costs immensely, but there's no chance at all that this could be done without severely impacting the quality of teaching even in the good times)

So, it's absolutely neccesary to chase students from elsewhere- not just RUK but ROW. And they chase RUK students over ROW, for obvious reasons.

(not least of which is the ongoing UK government interventions to make it harder and more expensive for foreigners to study in the UK)

Or maybe just another good reason why you should carry on living on the other side of the world zokes .......since UK constitutional affairs seem to bother you so much

Of course, you'd never discuss anything to do with things on the other side of the world, such as Argentina's claim to the Falklands, would you?

Nah, of course not: that would be stupid, wouldn't it...

teamhurtmore - Member

But then given that the Scottish government has to rely on a block grant from Westminster to fund free education and to make cuts in other areas to fund the policy, I am sure that those people who choose not to go to Uni or who cannot afford to go (in Scotland and England) are happy about the fairness of all this.

POSTED 12 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST

While I realise you have an axe to grind over us,(judging by your previous input into any thread about Scotland) please explain to me why,since I don't have cancer, I should be okay with the idea that you can get treatments in England that I can't in Scotland,yet my national insurance conts fund these? No more stupid than your argument about funding...IMO,more important as I could be denied treatments that could save/prolong life.
It is YOUR Government who is discriminating against it's own, but lets ignore that and shout about mine....Another Q, Do you think that is going to improve when you have a Tory Government for ever?

[b]Teamhurtmore; "picking the speck out of his neighbours eye,while ignoring the log in his own since Alex announced a referendum."[/b]

So you're government is charging silly fee's and thats our fault? Right. Whats with the chip on the shoulder? Or do you just like to wind TJ up? 😉

Well said Duckman.

Does anyone really give a shit? I would happily pay money not to have to go to Uni in Scotland, it's full of miserable gits, it's cold and wet, and we export all our pillocks there.

The only happy scots I know don't live in Scotland..

(edit - it's moot as I'm unlikely to go to uni having done it already, but my kids might go to uni, please god that they don't want to go to scotland)

please god that they don't want to go to scotland

Would give you a good excuse to visit and ride bikes here? Oh wait, no, its cold and wet all the time. Best stick to the bridleways down your way where its always sunny and warm.

Yah yah it's a joke please don't get upset. It was to illustrate that this is just a silly thread with lots of faux angst. Even as a dyed in the wool antijock I can see the reasoning behind the financing rules for uni places, if we had a reciprocal agreement with the scots we could get free uni places there too.

(although when I want to ride big mountains I go south, it's cheaper, the food is better, no midges, and best of all no scots!)

(edit and my kids could go free anyway as they have irish passports, despite living in england)
(double edit if you weren't so isolationist you would know that scotland has been experiencing sunshine whilst we down south have had oooodles of rain)

Maybe should of added a 😉

I'm currently living in a hell of a broken scaphoid and final exams combo so dont even know what day it is, never mind the weather 😛

Also, it' s painful to have to tacitly agree with TJ, so I like to offset that with some abuse. 😀

AA in the interests of fairness your last statement requires either a comma, exclaimation mark or another question mark..

What? Was your PhD in stupidity?
What! Was your PhD in stupidity?
What was your PhD in, stupidity?
Although I'm not sure this is correct, maybe this?
What was your PhD in? Stupidity?

I dont do gramma when using my phone. Apart from the odd full . Stop which is on the right page. I think the third option is best though thanks.

zokes - Member

Of course, you'd never discuss anything to do with things on the other side of the world, such as Argentina's claim to the Falklands, would you?

Nah, of course not: that would be stupid, wouldn't it...

No need to get so stroppy mate - I was simply suggesting that it might be another good reason for you to carry on living ten thousand miles away from Britain.

You are offering "another good reason" for Scottish independence, and I'm offering "a good reason" for you not to pay UK taxes, ie, because you don't like UK taxation, education, and funding policies.

Or have you got a monopoly over offering advice, something which you don't feel anyone else has the right to do ?

He doesnt like the welsh either!

Duckman, you are very mich mistaken in the "axe to grind over us" comment. In most cases I am a Scotophile and I personally benefitted from being educated in Scotland and would like my children to follow suit. As I have said before, I think there are aspects of Scottish degree courses that make them superior to English ones. I am also aware of areas of discrimination that affect Scots. Their existence does not justify each other. They are both wrong and should be criticised for what they are worth or not worth in these cases, The log in the eye comment is frankly absurd.

But if you take the worst of EU legal definition BS and that of your Dear Leader perhaps you should not be surprised that you end up with a bu&&ers muddle with lots of unintended consequences.

Funny that in England, there was a strong concern that Edin Uni would be descriminating against English students when to the dismay of the Nus rep, they do the opposite and follow the purse! Funny that, when the second best Uni in Scotland ( 😉 ) illustrates the follies here better than any of us Southern observers! But Northwind has outlined the reasons well.

anagallis_arvensis - Member

He doesnt like the welsh either!

Does anyone? 😀

But that's no excuse to use one legged arguments, try harder Zokes. If you want to do some scots bashing think a bit harder.. 😆

So does anyone know if the situation is the same in Wales, it was mooted when the increased fees came in but I'm not sure if they were able to follow it up.