[Closed] Another fine day for freedom of speech

Let him in.
Bollocks to the Muslim Council of Britain.
If its not acceptable then feel free to move to an Islamic state.

We've already thrown the bloody doors open to anyone who fancies having a go at us. And thanks to short-sighted career politicians passing feel-good human rights laws there's **** all we can do about it now.

I miss your point hora?

for the record the nation of islam preach separatism and anti-white racism

Yep, a very nasty bunch. And I don't have any problem whatsoever with their leader being denied entry into the UK.

As far as Ibrahim Mousawi is concerned, if he whipped up hatred against Christians by referring to their bible as a fascist book and calling for it to be banned then he too, should be excluded from the UK. I don't think he did though.

In the UK we have a tolerant democratic society, and if foreigners don't like it and want to preach intollerance and hate, then they can just bugger off as far as I'm concerned.

TandemJeremy - Member

BTW - huffington post - the house paper of the neocon right

The famously liberal Huffington Post is now the house paper of the neocon right? zomg!

Ok it's not the "Workers Hammer" but Neocom right?

[url= http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ ]eek Neocons under the bed[/url]

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huffington_Post ]Wiki on Huff[/url]

Bollocks to the Muslim Council of Britain.

Right, of course, because that's intelligent... 😯

Why do people feel 'threatened' by Islam? Why do you believe the Islamophobic sensationalist hate spouted by the right-wing media, so much? Do you not ****ing get it, that' it's part of a 'divide and rule' policy; get people hating each other, impose stricter and stricter forms of social control, people can be managed much more easily, in smaller groups.

From the perspective of someone who has experience of living within an Islamic 'community', I think some of the ignorance on here is not surprising, but quite sad, really. Since 911, Islamophobia has increased exponentially, in the West, to the extent that people now see Islam as a 'threat'.

Islam, in itself, is no more a threat to Western, or even Global, Civilisation, than is Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism etc. Islam, like many religions, can be used as a smokescreen, behind which extremist groups can perpetrate their abhorrent acts. Could be argued that the Western Neocons use Christian Fundamentalism in the same way.

Certain factions in the West have carried out a steady program of agitation and aggression against the Islamic World, in a bid to become the Supreme Rulers of this planet. To control it's people, and the resources upon which they depend. Through manipulation of the media, to implementing divisive and discriminatory policies, Governments like ours have engineered a state of 'fear', which has led to paranoia and hatred amongst ordinary people. Since 911, attacks on Asian and 'Muslim' people have increased dramatically. Arrests of innocent people, and the attempts by the police to create 'villains', has risen to a level not seen since the 70s and 80s, when the 'Enemy' was White, and Irish. The Terrosim act led to many Asian people, in areas like the East End, Bradford etc, to be subjected to irrational suspicion, and heavy scrutiny by the authorities. Stop and search policies, similar to the Suss Laws, were brought in, which saw the police, in such areas, pulling over loads of innocent people, just going about their daily lives, surveillance beyond any privacy laws, and the kicking in of doors of people at 3am.

Interestingly, very little of these actions actually produced any real 'terrorists'. Yet this did not stop the now inflamed media, always looking for increased sales, to pounce on any story that could even remotely be linked to 'terrorist activity'. Remember the Nail Bomber? Some papers were suggesting it was the work of Islamic extremists, before they even had the facts; an incredibly irresponsibly and inciteful thing to do.

Naturally, many British people, living in such communities, were justifiably angered by the deliberate and unfounded demonisation of their culture, and spoke out against the racist, discriminatory policies being carried out in the name of 'Freedom'. And one or two misguided young fools decided to act in an incredibly violent and destructive manner.

So, do the actions of a tormented few, speak for the millions of other peaceful, law-abiding people? Do the actions of people like the Nail Bomber, speak for all White people?

Some of you weak-minded fools need to go away, and try to learn some truth, before spouting your narrow-minded garbage. And then, you may actually ****ing realise, that you have been sucked into the Game; brainwashed by those who seek to control you, for their own selfish gain.

Islam is not your enemy. Fear, Ignorance and Hate, are.

Such pressure on sections of society, have enraged those already militant, to carry out acts of attrocity against ordinary citizens.

I apologise for the long post. I'm just sick and tired of the stupid bollocks spouted on here, so often.

RudeBoy your slant on reality is unfortunately all too common. Islam is a threat, and saying so isnt hateful, or ignorant, but yes I do fear for the future.

Enfht; your ignorance and delusion are all too common. I pity you.

My 'slant' on reality is [i]based[/i] on reality. Not what I read in the jingoistic scaremongering press. I look at what is really happening around me, and try to get an understanding of that. Unlike some people on here, who don't dare step out of their own safe little bubble, lest they are corrupted by evil...

Weak minded fools....

Go on, believe what you're told; do what you're ordered to. Don't, whatever you do, think for yourself, though.

Bimbler - only liberal from an american view point. I was wrong to say it was the house rag of the neocons tho - OK.

Islam, in itself, is no more a threat to Western, or even Global, Civilisation, than is Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism etc.

I understand that Islam clearly states it has three main goals. To destroy, convert or subjegate non believers. Its adherents openly preach hate and the most heinous of there actions appear to find support from within their chosen book as well as within communities.
I think is is quite reasonable and rational that people mistrust its followers in spite of you telling us that lots of them are really quite nice.

Islam is no threat. extemism is. Try to differenciate the two.

Rudeboy is correct. The treatent of Islam is a moral panic

I'm not sure I agree with all of that RudeBoy (though in general you're right), but given how unusually coherent and well argued it was (has somebody stolen RudeBoy's login?), and in the hope GG might eventually get it, I'll try the following:

When the government banned racist bigots from entering the country to speak their views,
I remained silent;
I was not a racist bigot.

When they stopped people who's views they didn't agree with from speaking in public,
I remained silent;
I didn't want to talk in public.

When they prevented members of other political parties from expressing themselves,
I remained silent;
I was not a member of a political party.

When the Islamic community were seen as a threat and no longer allowed a voice,
I remained silent;
I was not a Muslim.

When they stopped me from expressing my views on internet forums,
there was no one left to speak out.

My 'slant' on reality is based on reality. Not what I read in the jingoistic scaremongering press. I look at what is really happening around me, and try to get an understanding of that. Unlike some people on here, who don't dare step out of their own safe little bubble, lest they are corrupted by evil...

Are you now saying that because we are not victims of crimes perpetrated in the name of Islam ourselves that we should not form opinions based on the information around us as to the damage that it causes?

well thats some frickin "reality" you live in RudeBoy. You aint got a monopoly on living in London you know. You're so blinkered you accuse others of ignorance which in itself is highly questionable.

I understand that Islam clearly states it has three main goals. To destroy, convert or subjegate non believers

Jeesus; I find it bewildering, I really do. How people can be so ignorant, so misinformed, in an age where knowledge and information can be gained more readily than ever before.

Ok; carry on living in Fear, then, if you feel happier. Carry on beliving that all Muslims are plotting to kill you, and your family, then.

And check your milk, in case someone's poisoned it....

Enfht; what's London got to do with it? Or can you find nowt else to try and use in your argument against me?

I keep me eyes, ears and mind open, mate. something you might want to try, one day.

The main tenants of Islam can be summarized in the words of the Muslin prayer, “There is no God but God, and Mohammed is his prophet.” Islam recognizes many of the Jewish prophets such as Abraham and Moses, as well as Jesus Christ, as Islamic prophets. Islam contends that Judaism and Christianity have corrupted and misinterpreted the word of God, and that the true word of God is put down in the Quran, the holy book of Islam. Islamic tradition calls for the spread of Islam throughout the world, though it also—perhaps paradoxically—respects Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians (a monotheistic faith extant in Persia) as fellow believers in God.
[url] http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/17857/day_of_decision_the_battle_of_yarmuk.html [/url]

Straightforwardness, simplicity, compassion are all part of the fundamental tenants of Islam, which they call the five pillars. I'll list them with explanatory comments by an American Muslim convert, Robert Frager, and take a more in depth look at them later:

The pillars are:

Bearing witness to the presence of the Ultimate (Frager: In a room lit by several lamps there is only one, indivisible light. How similar to Unitarianism: One source, not multiple sources).

Daily Prayer, which begin by putting ones hands up to one's ears, palms forward. (Frager: In raising our hands, we try to put the world and all our worldly concerns behind us. If we open our hearts, we can feel ourselves in the presence of God, with nothing between us and God. [How like our Unitarian faith, relying on personal experience as the test for truth!])

Fasting, which is undertaken from dawn until sunset each day during a month long period each year, called Ramadan; which begins today. (Frager: This is a demanding practice, designed to help us to become more aware of the conflicting forces of our lower and higher natures. And to know what the poor suffer.)

Charity to those in need. (Frager: At the end of Ramadan, every Muslim household gives one fortieth of its accumulated wealth to the poor. We are only the custodians of whatever has come to us.)

Pilgrimage to the shrine of the Ka'bah in Mecca. (Frager: The pilgrimage is a metaphor for the journey of life. The pilgrimage and the journey both lead to God's house.)

These pillars form the foundation for a vast, culture-adaptive, world-wide religious movement.

[url] http://www.firstuualton.org/Sermon_files/anotherwaytosavethelight.htm [/url]

also
[url] http://wordwarrior915.wordpress.com/2008/08/04/islam-basic-tenants-of-belief/ [/url]

The time to choose is near, which side will you be on? There will be no chance to be neutral.

That can't be right, TJ; I can't see anything about destroying all infidels, there. Must be wrong... 🙄

The time to choose is near, which side will you be on? There will be no chance to be neutral.

When, the FA Cup final? Liverpool aren't in it, having been knocked out by Everton, in the infamous 'Tic Tac Game'. So, I think I could well be neutral, actually.

are you serious, your whole argument is based upon your "experiences" of what you see around you, I too live in London and "see" things very differently. You really need to chill out a bit and debate rationally instead of getting upset.

I understand that Islam clearly states it has three main goals. To destroy, convert or subjegate non believers

Jeesus; I find it bewildering, I really do. How people can be so ignorant, so misinformed, in an age where knowledge and information can be gained more readily than ever before.

Ok; carry on living in Fear, then, if you feel happier. Carry on beliving that all Muslims are plotting to kill you, and your family, then.

And check your milk, in case someone's poisoned it....

My understanding is incorrect then? I note you ridicule but dont answer.
Do you deny these 3 tenets?

LOL! A paranoid fool, telling me to 'chill out'!!

Brilliant. Got any more?? 😆

Surfer; I'd want Carer's Allowance, to be bothered to try and splain things to you. Here's a radical idea; why not try to find out for yourself???? 😉

yeah, chill out a bit, you're getting defensive and keep accusing others of ignorance because they dont agree with you.

I note you still dont answer Rudeboy?

Most people will see your rants for what they are, uninformed and biased.

you're getting defensive and keep accusing others of ignorance because they dont agree with you.

Or, more correctly, accusing others of ignorance, when in fact they actually are!

Careful; those bearded blokes across the road are looking at you funny...

yeah OK 😐

Yes Surfer, Islam does bully it's believers. Religion sucks! ALL religion. Baseless superstitious nonsense which divides people - most wars are caused by religious conflict afterall.

I am sure that Rudeboy is correct on his point about the media. Most newspapers are full of bullshit and journalists often have their own agenda. Don't buy newspapers!

I'm sure that there has been huge provocation of Muslins by the media and by certain western powers. The origins of this conflict started way back in 1948 when the Jews were given large tracts of arab land by western powers. The continuing one-sided view of the Israel/Palestinian conflict clearly reinforces the grievance felt by so many Muslims. This injustice needs to be sorted out.

Conversely, where was all the support from the Muslim countries when we were fighting for the welfare of Muslims in the Balkan conflict?

What uspsets me about Britain is that we are all told how we should think. Minorities get special treatment when they should be treated no differently from anyone else. Too much idealist PC nonsense is rammed down out throats on a daily basis and the passive indiginous majority is made to feel guilty for existing, let alone expressing an opinion! Any mention of debate on this matter and the thought police immediately shout racist. The message to me is; "put up and shut up"!

E.G. We are currently under a governemnt review in my county, to make available land for 49 extra Gypsy sites. We have twice as many sites as neighbouring counties already. These sites will compulsorily take private green belt land that cannot be built on for the much needed housing of the local population! The proposals in themselves have blighted the values of the homes in close proximity to these proposed sites. This is pure discrimination against our community. And the government rules state that we cannot object on the basis that a gypsy site next to our homes will affect propety values. A move with no regard for the tax paying law abiding majority, once again! If gypsies want to live in a community they should get a proper place to live and integrate, just like everyone else! The cultural need to live in a caravan is nonsense and nobody rolling up from another country should have a right to any public services without paying for these.

We should be working to integrate better. I read about all sorts of minorities trying to preserve their identity, their so called culture, what makes them different. Take the Welsh and the resurgence of the use of their language. Nobody speaks Welsh anywhere in the world other than Wales and all this serves to do is protect Welsh jobs - Welsh is a pre-requisite for many jobs - pure discrimination - how is the EU allowing this! They are speaking a foreign language that alienates themselves from the rest of the British commumity. It is just divisive and totally counterproductive.

We hear about Muslims gong to tribunals about the insistence on wearing certain items of clothing. We worry about offending those people, but I find it highly offensive when someone covers their face when speaking to you! Afterall, it is not the custom of this country to cover your face in public, so why foist an inappropriate muslim custom on out culture? Conversely, a british woman working for B.A. gets disciplined by her employer for refusing not to wear a cross. B.A, were scared that this might offend someone. NAtivity scenes are banned from chairty shop wwindow's at Christmas for fear of causing offence. Have we gone mad? One rule for minorities, one rule for the indiginous majority! The B.A. employee won her case, but with conditions as I recall. Why should we tolerate this? Look at the intolerance of western cultural habits in arab countries - it's virtually zero! Look the repression of women in arab countires - to their own women e.g the stoning of a teenage rape victim. Barbaric people living in the dark ages! Don't tell me we should subscribe to Sharia law in this counrty! The Arch Bishop of Canterbury made comments that we would have to adopt elements of Sharia law - NO WE WON'T YOU NUMPTY!!!!!

Every minority seems to be going off the end of the scale here, trying to be different, to make a statement. In effect alienating themselves from the mainstream. This is crazy divisive behaviour which helps nobody. We should be working towards integrating and finding common ground. Working to a set of equal standards. Minorities currently stamp their feet and the authorities cave in to their demands to impose their culture on our way of life.

Devolution - another divisive thing. If we had an English assembly the playing field would be even and the sytem would be credible. Instead we have an expensive set of local parliaments taking care of the minorities needs again. Two tier health care, education etc etc. Patently unfair!

The passive indiginous majority just have to put up and shut up whilst being overlooked. We are overlooked on so many more issues. Take the strikes over the importing of Italian and Portugese labour to do jobs where there is plenty of local expertise. British people who are in need of work. Gordon spouts on about EU employment law, but would the Portugese or the Italians put up with this on their doorstep? Yeah right!

This thread will run and run. The issues of discrimination and unfairness to the British population are continually ignored and over the past 20-30 years my attitude has become more nationalistic. That worries me greatly, but it has been brought about by weak governments (all parties) selling us down the river. Politicians who have overlooked issues that are important to ordinary people.

I think i'm done ranting now!

passive indiginous majority

You've used that expression twice. Would you like to educate me as to who these indiginous people might be ?

Spongebob; So many words, yet so little actual content worthy of consideration.

But your entitled to your own opinions, no matter how ignorant and bigoted they may be.

Blimey. it's like reading a BNP manifesto, that lot! Sensationalising an exaggerating particular aspects of foreign culture (aspect carefully chosen to attempt to justify the rest of the bile), and suggesting that there is an 'indigenous majority', to try and offer some sort of cosy comradeship with others who feel alienated and disaffected.

You talk about 'integration', yet what you really mean, is preventing any cultural practices other than what you consider to be 'British'.

You raise some good points about certain negative aspects of culture and practices carried out in certain Islamic societies(these are not actually aspects of faith, however), but sadly, you've only included these to reinforce your pathetic jingoistic 'argument'.

Seems like you've lifted most of that out of the pages of our Favourite Newspapers. Not particularly imaginative.

I feel sorry for you, I really do.

Rivers of Blood blah blah blah...

what happened who converted Rudeboy? I left on page three he was talking nonesense and I though rather right wing. I come back he in now a lone voice of reason in this nonesense. Now that does worry me
All faiths want to convert non believers Islam is no different ... it does not mean it will use force to do so (though aminority of its follwoers would).
Spongebob

Every minority seems to be going off the end of the scale here, trying to be different, to make a statement. In effect alienating themselves from the mainstream.

my attitude has become more nationalistic. That worries me greatly, but it has been brought about by weak governments (all parties) selling us down the river

what happened who converted Rudeboy? I left onpage thre he wastalking nonesense and I though rather right wing

Rudepaddedfred right wing? - you'll be giving the little fella nightmares

Islam is a threat

Unbelievable.

.
More than sixty years after previous generations thought they had thrown that sort of bollox into the dustbin of history, it rears it ugly head again.

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Muslims aren't a threat, Jews aren't a threat, gays aren't a threat, Gypsies aren't a threat.

.
Again we find ourselves in the depths of an economic crises, again we search for scapegoats for all of our ills.

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So why don't we just have a nice big war ? Perhaps we can attack some Islamic countries since Islam is such a threat to us. How about the ones with lots of oil ? - that would have added advantage of giving us access to nice and cheap energy supplies during these difficult and hard economic times.

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And since we're under threat, let's suspend democracy. Let's just round up all those we feel are a threat and keep them in large camps, without any of this "human rights" nonsense. Let's do what Geert Wilders suggests and ban the Koran - and any other books which we feel are a threat to us. Let's have big "book burning" events.

[img] [/img]

And since this country is under threat from Islam, let's close down all Muslim shops and businesses. Let's have ID cards which it state whether the holder is a Muslim - it will make it so much easier for the authorities to identify potential threats. Let's strike at the heart of the threat and fire-bomb mosques - after all, our civilisation is under threat and we are fighting a war against terror, so a bit of bombing is quite justifiable then.

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All a bit out of context and over the top ? Well it's a slippery slope down the road of hate and bigotry - once you go down it, things just start to accelerate. And we appear to have got over the first vital hurdle by establishing that "Islam is a threat".

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The only things which threaten us, are man's stupidity. And doesn't man's stupidity have so many faces ?
From climate change and failed economic experiments, to bigotry and hate.

.
Unbelievable.

Well said GG

All a bit melodramatic isnt it.

Nobody is trying to stifle free speech just a few people getting hysterical when challenged.
You mentioned book burning which is akin to stifling free expression yet you want to stop somebody speaking so in a democratic society.

Some people are certainly afraid of something.

We can agree that mans stupidity threatens us. However when that stupidity is reinforced by a book that millions of people order their lives by then there certainly is a risk.

I learned today that the chap who made this film, and got so upset that he wasn't allowed "free speech" wants the Koran banned...Feel the irony.

- Enoch was right!

- No he wasn't! Enoch was Hitler!!!!

Let's look at it from another way. I don't consider Islam itself, or even those using it as an excuse/smokescreen to justify some very unpleasant activities, a threat to the culture of the UK or Europe. Those individuals are a real threat to some very unlucky people certainly, just like our elected representatives were/are a very real threat to many Muslims...

I suppose you could say that Demographics is the threat here, if you like I would prefer not to live in a society similar to any of those currently with Islam dominant...But again, you could say that it's not Islam that is at fault here, merely Theocracy (Saudi Arabia, one of the UK/US' bestest friends apparently) grinding poverty and seemingly endless war (Afganistan) or grinding poverty and centuries of exploitation (Sudan).Look at the growth of extremism in Germany probably due to the conditions imposed on the population after the first world war.
Should I be alive in a hundred or so years, what with birthrates differing between "western" and "muslim" cultures as they seem to do, Europe could indeed have a Muslim majority. But then again, what usually happens a generation or two from poverty, is that people tend to have much smaller families.

Since i'm most likely not going to live for another hundred years, my more immediate concerns lie with the very real possibility of fuel and resource wars that will be fought in my name, the new demonisation of nations that will compete (ie the rather well equipped to deal with recent hardship China for starters), the news laws and memes/ideas introduced to society to make this global divide and rule situation possible rather than work together to try and sort it out as best we possibly could, and already the new laws that inhibit protest and exchange of ideas.

By the way, in response to the op, I personally feel that his audience in the House of Lords would have led to nowt, nothing at all, but consolidates the idea that it's better to deny a voice to someone, rather than give them the opportunity to make a fool of themselves and learn to live with criticism, which the Islamic fundies with their rather sensitive skins could learn from. So IMO , own goal.

Tried to edit this bit

"But then again, what usually happens a generation or two from poverty, is that people tend to have much smaller families."

to include

",education levels increase and "liberal values" become dominant...."

but left it too late.

Your original post was fine sodafarls.

In fact imo it was better without the reference to "liberal values" becoming dominant.

Yeah I agree - indeed you would have thought so. However, as we've become more prosperous, we have apparently started to lose our "liberal values" 😯

Let's do what Geert Wilders suggests and ban the Koran - and any other books which we feel are a threat to us.

Banning Mr Wilders from saying the Koran should be banned is just as bad as banning the Koran - or is at least a step along the road to considering it reasonable to ban some books. If you can make a case for him inciting violence, then you could just as well make a case for the Koran itself inciting violence (stop and think before you flame me - however abhorrent the suggestion that all muslims are terrorists is, I'd suggest that some terrorists are indeed muslims and take some of their inspiration from that very book).

aracer - its not that the film has been banned - the person involved has not been allowed into the country as his presence would not be conducive to the public good. Not the same thing at all.

But he was allowed in very recently, so it's obviously not inherently simply his presence which is the problem - the only reason he's been banned this time is because he was going to present his film.

Fo sure - its a subtle differance but he has no rights to be here or to show his film - wheras he does in Holland or would do heree if he was a UK citizen

Is it allowed to come back to the original point then - on exactly what grounds was it that he was not allowed in to show his film (given I understood that EU citizens had freedom of movement) if he would have been allowed to show it had he been a UK citizen?

The UK government has the right to refuse admission to the country to anyone EU or not if their presence is not conducive to the public good or if they suspect a crime would be commited - don't know the exact wording or which bit of the law