[Closed] Another fine day for freedom of speech

Sorry, my karmic internet twin, but on this occasion I have to disagree.

"Freedom of speech is our most precious freedom of all, because all the other freedoms depend on it. But there is a line to be drawn even with freedom of speech, and that is where it is likely to incite violence or hatred against someone or some group."

Chris Huhne. I agree.

< http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7882953.stm>

Fail.

[i]The home secretary has the power to stop people entering the UK if she believes there is a threat to national security, public order or the safety of UK citizens, but she cannot exclude people simply because of their views. [/i]
Funny that extract, given who they have let into the country previously on the basis of 'asylum sought on the grounds that the claimant would face torture if returned to Lebanon, Algeria etc' for acts of Terrorism.

So, IHN, is this acceptable to you?

[img] [/img]

Hora - how little you understand

CFH - wwere they not prosecuted? IIRC they were.

No, it's not. Why would it be?

And, for what it's worth, the same powers that are keeping the Dutch bigot out have been used to keep Islamic bigots out.

[i]have been used to keep Islamic bigots out. [/i]

Such as those chums that Ken Livingstone invited over to London? Abu Hamza and more....?

Freedom of Speech goes both ways, even towards the BNP. If you dont give people a voice which they cant vent off then what pressure buildup do you cause? The Government is worried about violence from one sector as one particular religion does not welcome any descent or criticism.

im fine with that captainflash, as long as they dont actually go around doing it, they can say whatever they like.
freedom of speech isnt the same as being able to do what the hell you want.

nehoo, "those who live by the sword, will be shot by those who dont"

[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7882953.stm ]linky[/url]

Freedom of Speech is mostly needed by those we oppose the most in their thinking when you disagree with something argue against it. It is not the freedom to express views I agree with rather the fredom to espress views I utterly oppose that I need to support. I cannot pass jusgement on a film I have not seen as to whether it does indeed incite

The Muslim Council of Britain said Mr Wilders was "an open and relentless preacher of hate".

The Dutch have lost a lot of credibility recently where this is concerned from the kowtowing to Muslims over the cartoon affair not so long to the banning of any form of criticism towards Islam.

I havent read this guys work yet however I suspect it says a lot about the Dutch, Losing there spines to save their necks!

Hora - dissent.

[i]Such as those chums that Ken Livingstone invited over to London? Abu Hamza and more....?[/i]

Maybe the powers should have been used for them too then. I still think it's right in this case.

[i]as long as they dont actually go around doing it, they can say whatever they like.[/i]

That's the whole point of incitement isn't it? You aren't going to do anything, you're trying to get others to do it for you.

one particular religion does not welcome any descent or criticism.

[i]The Dutch have lost a lot of credibility recently where this is concerned from the kowtowing to Muslims over the cartoon affair[/i]

Wasn't that the Danes?

[i]is that why you don't see many muslims climbing mountains then? can't come down for fear of offending allah? [/i]

Funny yet sooo wrong

The dutch "freedom party" are to the right of our BNP - very nasty bunch of racists.

[i]The Muslim Council of Britain said Mr Wilders was "an open and relentless preacher of hate".

if only they focused on getting rid of Islamic preachers of a similiar style. [/i]

I think you'll find that the MCGB are pretty vocal in their opposition of 'Islamic preachers of a similiar style', but you can't actually 'fire' a preacher so there's not that much that they can do.

Put him on the next plane back. Good riddance.

The Party for Freedom combines economic liberalism with a conservative programme towards immigration and culture. The party seeks tax cuts (€16 billion in the 2006 election programme), de-centralization, abolition of the minimum wage, and limiting child benefits and government subsidies. Regarding immigration and culture, the party believes that the Judeo-Christian and humanist traditions should be treated as the dominant culture in the Netherlands, and that immigrants should adapt accordingly. The party wants a halt to immigration from non-western countries. It is skeptical towards the EU project, is against future EU enlargement with countries like Turkey and opposes the presence of Islam in the Netherlands. The party is also opposed to dual citizenship (see below).

They sound lovely.

The dutch "freedom party" are to the right of our BNP - very nasty bunch of racists

Then they deserve to be heard to allow people to dismiss there arguments. A bit like holocaust deniers. Genuflecting to groups so as not to "offend" them only leads to the erosion of free speech. Denying the holocaust is ridiculous but banning the freedom to express such outrageous statements is undemocratic

[img] [/img]

😉

IHN

Why Islam Is Unfunny for a Cartoonist
The arrest of a controversial Dutch cartoonist has set off a wave of protests. The case is raising questions for a changing Europe about free speech, religion and art.
By ANDREW HIGGINS

On a sunny May morning, six plainclothes police officers, two uniformed policemen and a trio of functionaries from the state prosecutor's office closed in on a small apartment in Amsterdam. Their quarry: a skinny Dutch cartoonist with a rude sense of humor. Informed that he was suspected of sketching offensive drawings of Muslims and other minorities, the Dutchman surrendered without a struggle.

"I never expected the Spanish Inquisition," recalls the cartoonist, who goes by the nom de plume Gregorius Nekschot, quoting the British comedy team Monty Python. A fan of ribald gags, he's a caustic foe of religion, particularly Islam. The Quran, crucifixion, sexual organs and goats are among his favorite motifs.

Mr. Nekschot, whose cartoons had appeared mainly on his own Web site, spent the night in a jail cell. Police grabbed his computer, a hard drive and sketch pads. He's been summoned for further questioning later this month by prosecutors. He hasn't been charged with a crime, but the prosecutor's office says he's been under investigation for three years on suspicion that he violated a Dutch law that forbids discrimination on the basis of race, religion or sexual orientation.

The cartoon affair has come as a shock to a country that sees itself as a bastion of tolerance, a tradition forged by grim memories of bloody conflict between Catholics and Protestants. The Netherlands sheltered Jews and other refugees from the Spanish Inquisition, and Calvinists fleeing persecution in France. Its thinkers helped nurture the 18th-century Enlightenment. Prostitutes, marijuana and pornography have been legal for decades.

"This is serious. It is about freedom of speech," says Mark Rutte, the leader of a center-right opposition party. Some of Mr. Nekschot's oeuvre is "really disgusting," he says, "but that is free speech."

Bigdummy- that sign isnt for real?! Thats worth of a GeorgeBush award for literature. IHN- without reading further I dont see any 'you must marry into an arranged marriage', not fratanise with men other than your husband etc in there. I also dont see any degrading reference that its acceptable for women to cover themselves from head to foot either. Who are the most extremist again?

Fair enough, my mistake

Hora, what's your point?

Dutch freedom party should remain in Holland! Just like the extremeist Imams and other preachers of hatred from other parts of the world. Or leaders of religious cults. Keep Britain British. Let us continue to have freedom of speech and the ability to rant unchecked on web forums such as this!

Hora - I believe that sign to be photo-shopped, but it captured the mood of those demo's so beautifully that it is actually a form of truth.

IHN true but they have more power over Muslims than I do and they (Muslims) are incredibly intolerant of any form of criticism (or indeed a picture of their prophet) of their beliefs. This runs countrary to our freedom of speech doctrine they can say what they wish on Allah and we can say what we want back (with some limits naturally) but criticism is OK without a fatwa.

The picture above on beheading does show a propensity to overaction (by a minority)to legitimate debate on beliefs which rund counter to out Western liberal beliefs.

Spongebob

although I havent seen this guys film yet and from what I have heard he is a racist bigot etc. However I am interested in his thoughts on Islam which judging by another forum is possibly a reasoned critique. I'll not throw the baby out with the bathwater until I have seen it. After all if the BNP manifesto stated the world was round we would have to accept they at least got that bit right!

Personally I think the most grown-up attitude to all this is Indifference. If there was a bit less "Did you say somfink", and a bit more "Mleh...so what" the word would be a calmer place.

ALL religion should be open to critism. We arent living in the dark ages anymore where its heretic or you have to fight (die) for 'King and country'. People died fighting for our freedoms, Suffragettes stuck their necks out to enable the female vote. I do find it distasteful that under the auspices for a democratic and liberal society we allow the fairer of our sex to be covered from head to foot and to some degree kept under lock and key.

[i]and they (Muslims) are incredibly intolerant of any form of criticism (or indeed a picture of their prophet) of their beliefs.[/i]

I get worried when people bandy around words like 'they', as if all Muslims (or whoever) are the same. That's exactly what causes divisions. Some Muslims are incredibly intolerant. Some Christians, like this Dutch chap, are incredibly intolerant. Generally, some people are just incredibly intolerant, and they unfortunately tend to be the vocal minority of any given group. The best thing to do is just ignore them.

Just a thought. I wonder if STW towers sometimes feel alittle nervous about threads on certain religions? Do some STW'ers find it alittle uncomfortable to critise or make a negative comment about Islam? People sometimes joke about Catholics etc however would you feel as comfortable (or wonder slightly) if you did the same on Islam? Just makes you wonder where the fear is sometimes, who we do fear and why. Just a thought.

[i]I do find it distasteful that under the auspices for a democratic and liberal society we allow the fairer of our sex to be covered from head to foot and to some degree kept under lock and key. [/i]

Give your admissions about your sexual urges, they probably prefer it that way.

[i]Give your admissions about your sexual urges, they probably prefer it that way.[/i]

Class.

IHN bit selective on your quote of me I accept later it is a minority of Muslims who overreact and I have not said something idiotic (and untrue) like they are all terrorist they all believe in suicide bombings or they all hate the west have I?
That aside yes perhaps I should have worded it better
YES THEY ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS

I'd like to see the Muslim council being more vocal/unbiased.

Junkyard - you did say that only a minority overreact, but you did imply that that they [sic] are all intolerant of any criticism, which is not the case.

[i]I'd like to see the Muslim council being more vocal/unbiased[/i]

They're incredibly vocal, to the point where they are often criticised for sticking their noses in where they're not wanted. As for being unbiased, you can't really blame them for having a pro-Islamic stance can you, the clue's kind of in the name.

Anyway binners will have to be careful, his neighbours may get wind of this thread and place a Fatwah on him!

Possibly, however I would like to hear them openly criticise suicide bombers. Which goes to show how even moderate followers of Islam provide cover for more extreme Muslims.

[i]however I would like to hear them openly criticise suicide bombers.[/i]

Do they not (an honest question)? I'd be surprised.